Like seriously, Poppy completes sunfire cape and good luck killing her, getting really annoyed by seeing her diving my backline and taking like 5+ seconds to actually die.
Am i the only one who finds her ridiculous? or is it sun fire's cape fault?
notice me Sin pi32 votesthat's what i would call a tank, not some champ that gets deleted in 1sec in teamfights after building 4 tank items. More like it's other "tanks" that need to be more tanky.
Erractic Eick2 votesI was going to comment this, but instead I saw you beat me to the punch. Thank you and +1!
Also, it's comforting to see this is the top comment in my mind. Good job, Community.
Not xPeke4 votesI agree, tanks need to be more tanky.
However if that is made possible, which it should, they should have their damage output reduced.
Rossendale1 votes[{quoted}](name=Not Xpeke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g2a0KNhE,comment-id=000a0001,timestamp=2016-12-26T15:18:45.100+0000)
I agree, tanks need to be more tanky.
However if that is made possible, which it should, they should have their damage output reduced.
Reduced from what? Have you ever played a tank? Past early-game tanks do piss for damage to anyone that's not an ADC or a squishy mage.
Not xPeke4 votesThat's not true. Some still do relevant damage during the mid-game as well.
Anyway, my point is that if they are given an increase in tankiness (which they should have), then you should reduce their damage in the early stages of the game. Because especially in the early game, a 1 or 2 defensive item tank will feel unkillable due to the enemy team not having any ar/mr penetration, yet he will have enough damage to easily kill squishys.
A Poppy with just Sunfire Cape will feel really tanky yet can easily smash a squishy if she gets on top of them. Increase her tankiness even more and then she'd need her damage reduced. I'm all up for tanks being tankier, but then make them actually feel like tanks.
And yes, I do play tanks. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean you can make the assumption I don't play tanks. Your point of view is not the only one that matters. While we are at it, I actually hate myself when I play Poppy, Maokai, etc and do shitloads of damage until everyone has 3-4 items, while being quite unkillable until the VoidStaffs and LW are coming into play.
Ralanr7 votesReducing their actual damage output hurts their early game laning and jungling a lot.
I'm sorry but tanks do need to be have some chance to actually win a lane early. Else we just go back to Shen farming under tower and last hitting with his Q.
Because that was very interactive.
Not xPeke3 votesI completely agree. There is a limit however.
Especially with all the new masteries, especially keystones, that Riot introduced, damage has been increased across all the boards - including Tanks' damage. Then there's tank items which help them deal more damage, etc etc.
While the issue with laning is a fair point to bring out, another important issue to keep in mind then is a 1 item Sunfire Cape Poppy 4 hitting a squishy if she lands her combo. I mean in the early game she probably does just as much damage as an carry, except she feels incredibly tanky throughout the whole early and mid game until the enemy starts being able to buy penetration items. She gets to be tanky and deal damage. No tradeoff the way I see it.
I don't play Maokai often, but every single time I play him, by luck or whatever, I end up doing really well. And up until 3 items I'm just decimating the enemy squishys, literally. How is that healthy when it takes like 15 AAs or 3 rotation of spells to kill me? Meanwhile I'm landing my combo on the enemy and see their health explode? (just a random example, i know) Everytime I play a tank, and do well, I feel disgusted by myself. It's so forgiving to play a tanky champion, and your damage doesn't even fall off until well into the midgame/late game.
I do agree tanks should be even tankier though.
Ralanr2 votesPoppy's damage is heavily reliant on her abilities landing. Even if she does as much damage as a carry early (and carries aren't known for doing much damage early) she needs to actually stun you against a wall to pull this off.
Tanks are something that people need to peel off for a reason.
The reason tanks are strong early to mid and fall off late is because people don't build anti-tank items that early into the game. Doing so cute down their damage output. Thus giving the impression that tanks are "tanky".
Now with champions like Maokai I can see the issue because his most damaging spell is unavoidable. You can't play around it. I don't find that particularly healthy. But Poppy's stun you can avoid the full damage simply by keeping away from walls. There's a fair counterplay to it and she gets rewarded for landing it. It's like how Sion gets rewarded for landing his Q but not only knocking someone up, but also doing a decent chunk of damage.
I don't support the shit that Malphite or Maokai get away with because for the most part it's near impossible to avoid their damage. Making their high bases really painful. But on newer tanks we are seeing more counterplay and more set up required for actually landing their shit.
I think the Vanguard update is going to push this form of play to many tanks. Actually giving their damage more counterplay but making it more rewarding when landing it. Especially towards squishies because they are pretty much the only things that die quickly to tanks.
Not xPeke4 votesI'm not inherently disagreeing, however saying that Poppy's damage is heavily reliant on her abilities landing is a bit of a vague comment. That can be said about the vast majority of champions. The fact remains that she does indeed do alot of damage.
Tanks are indeed something that need to peeled off, but it shouldn't be because of the damage they deal. It should primarily be so because of their stickiness, CC, and disruption they bring to the table. For example if even Poppy, Maokai, or a Nautilus had their damaged reduced, they would still be perfectly viable because of their CC and tankiness, and frontline capability.
I do agree with the itemization point you raised.
And I also agree with your view on Malph and Maokai.
And yep, if you are correct the Vanguard update will be interesting.
Ralanr1 votesHonestly if ADCs or other squishies didn't go full glass cannon then wouldn't die so easily to tanks.
Not xPeke5 votesWhy shouldn't they go full glass cannon though? That's the thing, there's classes and roles for a specific reason.
Tanks build defensive, bruisers build a mix, and carries go/used to go full glass cannon.
Isn't the simple fact that almost every role/class including pure carries have to build defensive items a clear symptom that something is wrong? Instead of adding diversity, everyone is tanking up. Obviously some do a better job at it, but they are all doing it nonethe less. Like the HP stacking midlane mages, etc.
At the end of the day, squishies shouldn't be required to build defensively to survive TANKS. Tanks have no damage items, so shouldn't be dealing damage. "oh but squishys have no resistances" yeah well.. you aint got any damage items. It goes both ways. You can't apply logic only when it's convenient. (general speaking when using the word 'you')
Ralanr1 votesSimply put, damage outscales defense in league, and base damage generally outscales base defenses, especially with a class that doesn't even get defense scaling (at least no MR per level).
I'm not saying that ADC's need to start building bruiser, but a 
doesn't hurt.
Not xPeke4 votesYeah I get you, but it's easy to say a GA wouldn't hurt. When would it be realistically viable? The majority of ADCs really need at least 3-4 core items like IE AS and LW. By the time you get GA those resistances will be useless.
The truth is squishys shouldn't need to itemize against tanks. Tanks should just do less damage and be tankier to balance it out.
sakwoya2 votesI agree with you kinda. I main a tanks(well mainly this guy 
) and it feels gross and satisfying ramming into a carry a mach 40 rammus style late game and dealing a maximum of 900 BASE DAMAGE. Like legit 
deal ridicuolous damage. Sometimes if the enemy team is ignoring me I'll end up doing the most damage on the team. Just think about how stupid that is. A 5k hp tank did the most damage. The main issue is that tanks get tons of base damage but if they arent explicitly focused mid game they will last. If they are farmed up well and know when and who to cc a tank can survive a mid game teamfight for up to even 6 second while being focused. In the late game I sometimes find my self suprised how long I'm lasting. I get ready to use Sion's passive and I notice that my collosus shield has procked plus 10% max hp w shield.
In my opinion tanks don't need to get tankier. Poppy is getting nerfed on the PBE because she is too tanky. Bringing her on par with the other tanks.
Ralanr1 votesI'm not bothered by Sion's base damage. He's incredibly easy to avoid already, this just gives some more motivation to avoid him.
sakwoya2 votesFinally, a man who knows how to deal with a tank. I love that he's balanced around "get the fuck out of the way". That makes me feel like a big strong manly man when carries understand that I am to be treated as an actual and threat and not a cc bot/peel machine.
Ralanr1 votesOh I'm not alone in this thought process?
Woohoo!
But yeah, I'm still surprised how many people don't actually respect my threat. Granted I don't hear complaints when I land a Q as Sion.
sakwoya2 votesOnly time I have people complain about sion Q is when I go support and cocky vayne players bm at the edge of my hitbox and get chunked for a third of their hp and killed. Saying that sion Q is broken. Oh well. Nothing will beat the feeling of yasuo throwing a tornado at your carries(which you know will hit) and you preemptively charge Q and CC him as he exits ult and the entire crew collectively murks his dumb ass. Legit nothing makes me happier then that. Nothing.
Anonagon15 votesOk real talk, this is every tank in the midgame
Poppy is super noticable because she's just the most played and one of the strongest tanks
If you play someone without some super powerful innate tank-killing ability, you might as well not trade with a tank at all after they've gotten their first item, up to when you have like three items, one being LW or BC
Ralanr13 votesOk real talk, this is every tank in the mid game
Poppy is super noticable because she's just the most played and one of the strongest tanks
If you play someone without some super powerful innate tank-killing ability, you might as well not trade with a tank at all after they've gotten their first item, up to when you have like three items, one being LW or BC
THANK YOU!
God it's like people don't know how solo lane tanks work.
Salron4 votesTHANK YOU!
God it's like people don't know how solo lane tanks work.
No other Solo lane Tank has Poppy's W passive that doubles at 40% HP for no real reason
Spaceman5pff2 votesOther than that she is supposed to have this tenacious, clinging to life by the teeth kinda scrappy deal going on.
Tychusfindlay9198 votesTHANK YOU!
God it's like people don't know how solo lane tanks work.
I heard some imbecile saying poppy is too tanky and unkillable?
Help has arrived.
Hayaishi21 votes
Help has arrived.
Darius is kiteable, offers little utility and doesn't build full tank.
Problem with Poppy is that you can't punish her even ganking her is unrewarding, feels like you are just losing your time because she just won't die or will simply disengage with her ult.
Tychusfindlay9199 votesDarius is kiteable, offers little utility and doesn't build full tank.
Problem with Poppy is that you can't punish her even ganking her is unrewarding, feels like you are just losing your time because she just won't die or will simply disengage with her ult.
None of which matter. He offers everything one can want against poppy, and he has enough utility to cancel her ultimate channel. His insane synergy with cleaver helps shred quite a bit of that tank poppy gets, and his true damage execute cock blocks poppy's little last stand passive on her W. There's a reason why Darius's win rate against poppy is pretty damn high.
http://www.champion.gg/champion/Darius
Around 56% in platinum+, so don't you talk back to me if you're clueless about what I'm talking about. Makes you look like a tool.
Melledoneus4 votes
Get off mah lawn, bitch.
Hayaishi23 votesOk real talk, this is every tank in the midgame
Poppy is super noticable because she's just the most played and one of the strongest tanks
If you play someone without some super powerful innate tank-killing ability, you might as well not trade with a tank at all after they've gotten their first item, up to when you have like three items, one being LW or BC
Poppy is incredibly hard to kill after LW too, she gets bunch of shields too, i've seen how my entire team focuses her when she gets caught or something and still struggle to kill her.
Ralanr4 votesOne shield that has counterplay and is getting nerfed.
DJMason883 votesCoC
Ralanr4 votesCoC isn't Poppy specific.
DJMason883 votesIt still makes her even harder to deal with, and givers her an extra shield.
Ralanr3 votesIt makes everyone with hard CC harder to deal with. That's why Vi, Hecarim, and Riven are getting back to being stupid.
Melledoneus6 votesI'm pretty sure that CotC could have had a lot better ways to scale. Like off of %bonus HP.
50000000000000001 votesIt was supposed to be used on divers too, so that sounds fair. Most divers itemize defensively, and those who don't shouldn't get any defensive bonus for free. That said, that would hurt CotC's effectiveness in lane a lot.
Melledoneus2 votesActually, most Divers should itemize defensively.
See Irelia, Nocturne, Xin Zhao.
ShaolinToilet2 votesA nerf that won't do much.
Ralanr3 votesA duration drop to 3 seconds won't do much?
From 5 seconds? You serious?
LankPants4 votesA tank who doesn't instantly become useless when you build an item? Blasphemy.
Seriously though, do you really think it should be easy to kill a tank? If you're not struggling to kill a tank that's a sign that something in the game is unbalanced. Maybe the tank is too weak, the items are out of balance or the carry is BS, but if the tank is going down easy and isn't massively behind that is the sign that there is an issue.
Hayaishi21 votesA tank who doesn't instantly become useless when you build an item? Blasphemy.
Seriously though, do you really think it should be easy to kill a tank? If you're not struggling to kill a tank that's a sign that something in the game is unbalanced. Maybe the tank is too weak, the items are out of balance or the carry is BS, but if the tank is going down easy and isn't massively behind that is the sign that there is an issue.
AD carrues are meant to kill tanks and tanks should feel threatened if the AD carry is shooting at them without any pressure, not just shrug it off.
In her current state, Poppy by mid game can dive recklessly and not get punished by it.
Ralanr2 votesI do feel threatened by the ADC. Especially in the late game. Especially since I don't have enough burst to kill them unless I get them to a wall.
Squey7 votesexcept poppy usually stomps her lane and kills her oppenent regularly while building no damage at all. Im always surprised when i get 1 combo'd at full hp by a poppy. A tank with no damage items shouldnt have a q that does 400 damage.
Anonagon6 votesI'm not commenting on Poppy's specific balance state or anything, I was just saying the phenomena of being unkillable after their first completed defensive item is something that every tank shares.
Melledoneus3 votesMainly because while damage is multiplicaive that's all it is. Sunfire cape has consistent damage and offers good tankiness for a first item. 500 HP and 50 armor is no joke.
Blåbæret4 votesOk real talk, this is every tank in the midgame
Poppy is super noticable because she's just the most played and one of the strongest tanks
If you play someone without some super powerful innate tank-killing ability, you might as well not trade with a tank at all after they've gotten their first item, up to when you have like three items, one being LW or BC
I don't know man, I've been against most tanks and Poppy seems to be the tankiest BY FAR. She literally becomes unkillable with one item and takes forever to kill in all stages of the game.
Melledoneus2 votesMaybe because she uses her shield on you? Also she has good base stats and her W helps a bit.
If you're having trouble killing Poppy with sunfire Nautilus must be a fucking nightmare for you.
Latex Choker1 votesThe problem I have with Poppy is that there is almost no opportunity to punish her.
By the time you and Poppy both have your ults her passive is on a 13s CD. The shield itself lasts 5s.
This wouldn't be an issue if Poppy couldn't bypass the counterplay of having to retrieve her buckler by just last hitting a minion from range.
Add in Courage of the collossus for an extra 4s of shielding and suddenly your window to punish Poppy has dropped to 4s.
And even if it is on CD Poppy is one of the safest tanks in the game in terms of laning, with low mana costs and numerous ways to disrupt or turn around an attempt to fight her.
And her damage, despite what others might mindlessly spout, is disgustingly high for a tank, out damaging the likes of Maokai and Nautilus with ease. The problem is of course that Poppy has bad AD ratios and sky-high bases, so she has no incentive to ever invest in anything that isn't pure defense.
Over Innsmouth7 votes#I LOVE YOUR NAME
#IS THERE SOME WAY WE CAN COMMUNICATE?
