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I think Ivern is so hard to balance because he's the only support that isn't money-starved.

Gosh Darn··92 votes·5,057 views

I think the reason Ivern has such a huge winrate is that he's a support with a jungler's income. Look at Lulu. Every time she was able to solo lane she was oppressive as fuck because she was safe and her utility scaled with income, making her monstrous when she had solo lane income. If Janna or Soraka could solo lane they'd be just as good as Ivern.

Support items are balanced around strong actives and passives because supports can't afford to compete with stats alone. This is a problem with Ivern because he is able to complete more of these support items earlier and get CDR and actives so early that he's difficult to kill and makes his allies difficult to kill.

As long as supports are 3 levels and 5k gold behind, Ivern will be impossible to balance. If we could close the gap a bit we could make support actives/passives slightly weaker and increase the stats. It'd also have the added benefit of redemption and locket not being built in 99.99% of games. When a magic damage carry Zyra is building this combo you know something is wrong with support itemization and income.

96 Comments

WoonStruck25 votes

His design is also cancer from a jungling perspective.

Good invade because of teamwide gapcloser. Can near-instantly steal a buff relative to other junglers. Incredible self-peel for safety while doing so. Good if he's ahead OR behind due to massive utility. Ult that makes diving a breeze, and contributes significantly for the amount (lack) of input/thought/timing required.

yay nibbers32 votes

I think this is the real issue. Near-instantly stealing entire camps being the big thing. Who the hell thought this would be an okay thing for him to do? Even Nunu has to do some work to counter jungle. This lanky tree dick gets to just stroll on in and do it in an instant for just a single Smite, and if someone sees him he can slide out with the assistance of another camp or just root the person who caught him and leave. It's a lot of bullshit.

Jet Sett26 votes

The difference being Nunu can take a whole jungle side and be 70% health while Ivern marks the camps and gets to 30%

It's really only a major issue if you can't defend your jungle and have less map pressure than him. If you're playing someone like LeeSin you can go find and kill him yourself.

Rewt24 votes

Lets not forget that Ivern has this amazing utility because he cant do anything on his own. Ivern cant do shit. lets face it. The reason ivern is good is because he can get a 12min redemption.

EDIT: He lives on the principal taught by SaintVicious. Make the enemy Jungler Just as useless as you.

whathemath16 votes

except Ivern makes the enemy jungler useless while still being useful because of his utility.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

EDIT: He lives on the principal taught by SaintVicious. Make the enemy Jungler Just as useless as you.

At a strategic level, Ivern beats other junglers in a tie. But that comment still amused me.

Troll for Trump2 votes

SaintVicious, with the good ol' "why isn't my smite working"

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

Oh is it now? Doubt he's as cancerous as previous troublemakers. Ekko Graves Khazix Kindred LeeSin Quinn Rengar

Segius2 votes

He can only insta clear with smite, late game his clears fall off super hard, as normal jgs can instaclear without smite

Starcraft243ver15 votes

To be honnest his instant buff/camp steal should only be available in his part of the jungle.

Also Karma is a support who can solo lane and isnt this oppressive, Morgana, Zilean ...

Chromatic Eagle2 votes

At least one of them was originally a mid laner.

Captain Aishi11 votes

karma is honestly one of the most oppressive top laners in the entire game, i'd rather face a quinn than a karma any day of the week

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

Top lane yeah, she's fucking dumb. I don't who in the right mind came up with that lane, but they did. Mid lane she's fine.

Arsenic Sulfur6 votes

Top lane tank Karma. If you play that, you become an awful human being with no redeeming qualities.

jr deputy meow2 votes

me all throughout season 5 : ^ )

ForeverLaxx2 votes

I was doing that before her boring, watered-down rework, and this was during a point in time where people didn't assume the Top Lane was "Melee Only, No Ganks, Final Destination."

Rewt7 votes

that would kill ivern. He does negative damage. His auto attacks may as well heal what he is trying to attack. Doing that completely removes his ability to counterjungle.

Dr Poro4 votes

His auto attacks are pretty decent if you have the brush bonus. He's the highest winrate jungler right now, there will definitely follow a nerf. I love playing Ivern myself, but just be realistic and think about the best way to nerf him to make him more annoying but still playable. I believe this is a good option.

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

They really aren't unless you're maxing it, in which case.... well you put points into an auto attack buff that's only available in brush on a champ with poor attack speed and no steroids.

OverpoweredSoap3 votes

{quoted}

To be honnest his instant buff/camp steal should only be available in his part of the jungle.

Also Karma is a support who can solo lane and isnt this oppressive, Morgana, Zilean ...

I'm pretty sure both Karma and Morgana are designed as a mage first, they ended up being played mostly as supports because they're utility mages.

Can't say for Zilean though.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

At least Morgana legit has utility on all her spells, only thing out of place being her passive, Karma is literally just R+Q R+Q R+Q all lanning phase.

Starcraft243ver1 votes

W morg ?

Also karma, shields and root.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Right, I forgot they removed the MR shred on her W.

Frightning1 votes

Bad Karmas do that...good ones, lead in with W (and maybe E themselves), and then R+Q the enemy while they're snared and can't dodge the follow up damage. She's an unreal lane bully if you play her that way, even in bot lane (and especially in a solo lane).

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Karma's don't do that to be a bully though, they do that combo when they want to go all in with their ADC or set up for their jungler. Most of the time they just R+Q you.

Frightning1 votes

I do it just to harass people in lane every time my R comes up (always better than just R+Qing them because they will usually walk out of the follow up damage, which is impossible if they are snared). It's amazingly effective, even if you don't kill them, they are definitely feeling the hurt and will be quite afraid of you henceforth. The ones that sit back and R+Q you are wasting her potential as a lane bully, period.

Dracocrash3 votes

morgana is not a support played mid lane ; she is a mid laner played support.

Sire Hippington2 votes

Nope, morgana was intendet as support, back in the days she was tagged as support primary and mage scundary. She just was played midlane instead.

Frightning1 votes

Way back, there was no primary v secondary distinction if memory serves, and she had the mage and support labels back then (and was played mid lane mostly because her spell vamp was much stronger then (20% at all levels).

chipndip11 votes

Then he'd never be able to counter-jungle. You realize he has to cook camps, right? AND it takes his hp/mp to do it, right?

Starcraft243ver1 votes

Yeah i know it.

Faster cooking time then ? Lets say he saw the opponent jungler botside he can take quickly the top jungle.

chipndip11 votes

So while he already has good clears, you want to BUFF his general clears to nerf his counter-jungling?

Starcraft243ver1 votes

Faster cooking time doesnt mean faster CD on cooking. His overall clearing time would be the same, but a single camp would take less time and he would have to wait longer between camps. Balance things out ?

chipndip11 votes

...that doesn't make sense.

If each camp cooks faster, he can set them and take them faster. There is no cd outside of his own hp/mp. You don't know what you're saying.

Starcraft243ver1 votes

My point was : ADD A CD / make the growing side of the jungle dependant / dunno, but make the whole thing act differently if you are in your jungle or counterjungling.

chipndip11 votes

So make it so Ivern can't smite enemy camps when enemy junglers can smite HIS camps?

Like, I get you don't like Ivern counter-jungling you, but this is you being salty. Ivern already pays in power by being bad in 1v1 situations. Even if people may think one way or the other about Ivern, these types of suggestions are ridiculous.

Bouncemaster Zac14 votes

I think a good way to nerf him would be to make it so his shield can't explode for the damage + slow if it gets broken. It's kind of ridiculous for one shield to do 3 different things with a near 100% uptime and no real way for his opponents to play around it.

TheSingularity2 votes

This^^ Why the fk is sions shield popped for less hp/dmg/utility than iverns 8sec cd shiel

Dr Poro2 votes

Makes sense. It would be more like Sion's shield except that you can't choose when it explodes.

Glory ln Death1 votes

Sion cries in corner

Lux Is Mai Waifu2 votes

No, it's because his q and shield and slow and free buffs and safety meant he had a lee sin tier overloaded early game on release.

CuckledgeFarms7 votes

Ivern was extremely weak on release, I'm pretty sure he got a hot fix buff

Lux Is Mai Waifu3 votes

He was broken, players and their teammates just weren't used to his kit yet and Riot overreacted.

Chembaron Yamada4 votes

I don't get why you are downvoted. Yes, Ivern got a buff. But it was a minor one, it wasn't really a big deal.

He was strong from the start, people just didn't figure out how to play him in that time. His playstyle is alot different than any other jungler. So it took some time to adjust to him.

Ivern and Irelia13 votes

Ivern was not weak on release. In fact he was much stronger than he is now. What made him seem "weak" was the fact that his kit was so new. Very very very few people knew how to use him effectively and thus gave off the impression that he was so weak. Currently he is sitting at his weakest point

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

Many of us were also trying to play him support. It works surprisingly not well. :/

Ivern and Irelia1 votes

You could not be more wrong. In fact thats pretty much all i played on him, i rarely played him jg. Ill leave this here as my evidence

http://i.imgur.com/gfdE71F.png

And to this day i almost only play him sup

ShaolinToilet2 votes

49 percent winrate is ok but nothing special

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

Plus he's a support and people couldn't stand the idea of playing a support until they realized "Hey! I can climb with this guy!"

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

U drunk? He was absolutely broken on release lol. Full AP ivern=unstoppable. People just needed to figure that out at first which ofc needs its time and a lot were also playing him support.

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