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[Item Overhaul] The Tank Project (Revised)

Pyro··24 votes·2,525 views

TL;DR: Tanks as a class don't seem to be in the right place - Mitigating damage should be a bit more diverse - We could use some items with soft taunts - Tanks should be significantly more durable than bruisers - We need a counter to knockups/knockbacks

http://i.imgur.com/pFspRde.jpg

This item overhaul is a complete set of suggested changes to improve the gameplay diversity in League of Legends. The ultimate purpose is expanding the realm of possibile strategies, both in the spectrum of "viable champions" and the in-game actions available. The overhaul covers all item systems, from AD and Critical Strike rework through AP and Support expansion to differentiating Fighter and Tank classes.

Why? Well, more or less to have more than top 3-5 champion picks for every role in LCS with cookie-cutter builds. Item builds should be more flexible, reactive and champion-specific, not predefined for a whole role/class of champions.

Full list of all items

#Premise of the Tank Project

Tanking doesn't feel rewarding.

Sure, initiators like Rammus, Amumu and Sejuani aren't anywhere low in the % winrate department. Their ability to coordinate teamfights in solo queue is nothing to be laughed at. Nevertheless, compared to champions with AD scalings like Jarvan IV and Vi, they don't really feel impactful. They don't deal damage, they can't push towers, and overall they don't even feel more durable than bruisers. Nothing stops Jarvan or Vi from going "full tank" and still dealing damage - meanwhile champions like Nautilus or Sejuani don't even have that much innate durability in their kit.

Note: as of patch 5.1, the turret-pushing problem gets partially solved with the introduction of Zz'Rot Portal, which spawns little voidlings that deal damage to towers based on your Armor and MR.

This whole overhaul is an attempt to fix this problem by approaching it from both ends: first, changing the defensive items to differentiate between bruiser and tank builds, but also, second, changing the way carries break through resistances. The second part is just as important.

The Tank Project can be summed up as follows:

  • item 3135 Void Staff and item 3035 Last Whisper penetrate 50% of bonus MR/armor instead of 35% total
  • This means they're more effective against heavy resistance stacking, but not as good against unarmored targets - so if the carry decides to shred through your durability, they have to give up some damage to your teammates
  • To avoid making the binary situation "tanks are immortal"/"tanks are paper", alternative items to LW are included, and Black Cleaver gets a much much better build path
  • In a similar manner, item 3153 Blade of the Ruined King loses part of its absolute power and becomes more situational (from 3k gold to 2.3k)
  • To make up for the changes to Last Whisper, fighters get their items changed as well
  • DFG's damage component comes at the end of the debuff instead of the beginning (so much like Death Mark) By the way, it seems like DFG is being removed from the game, from what we've seen on PBE.
  • All in all, dealing damage to tanks comes at a price and LW is not always the best choice
  • Tank items being generally less slot efficient by themselves, but stronger together
  • Lower efficiency of one-item wonders (Sunfire, Omen) for bruisers
  • Synergy items increasing your tankiness, % health and % resistance amplifiers (much like Spirit of the Ancient Golem)
  • Suiting the item passives to match the threat
  • Items against carries (anti-crit protection, anti-caster aura)
  • Items against hybrid damage to balance things like Jax and Shyvana, and the on-hit builds introduced in this overhaul
  • Counterplay to crowd control
  • Anti-knockback item suited for tanks
  • Alternative slow resistance item to Boots of Swiftness
  • Tank scalings
  • AA block calculated after armor (reworked Omen)
  • Other scalings (armor scaling on Iceborn Gauntlet procs, MR scaling on Locket of the Iron Solari shield)
  • Synergising with CC (like the Oppression mastery)
  • Clear tiering of items (that can be meddled with afterwards, initial numbers are just guidelines)
  • Health tiers: 200 (health is negligible), 400 (general durability), 600 (heavy stuff) and 800 (Warmog's)
  • Armor tiers: 50 (utility) and 100 (anti-DPS)
  • MR tiers: 30 (lesser MR) and 50 (heavy MR)
  • Soft taunts
  • Sunfire Cape damage scaling with current health, which means the lower they get you, the less damage you deal
  • New item with a shield that grants an aura buff until it's broken (Sion's W and Maokai's R combined)
  • CDR revamp
  • No 20% CDR items building out of one 10% CDR component
  • All 20% CDR items are like Morellonomicon - cheap, build out of two 10% CDR ones, mundane utility
  • The idea here is "Tanks and Supports get their CDR early"
  • This is to avoid situations where you'd have to pay for that extra 10% CDR while upgrading an item purchased for something else than high CDR (sometimes purchasing FH late in the game isn't outright effficient on tanks)
  • The secondary goal is balancing out mage itemization, as the constant dominance of Grail and Morellonomicon homogenizes mage builds (20% CDR into Deathcap into Void Staff on everyone)

So much about ideas, let's get down to business. If you disagree with the concept above then you can ignore my implementation and argue against the whole idea. Keep in mind that some of the things above might be very right while my execution below might be very wrong.

#Health items

Items with less than 400 health are covered in other parts of the itemization overhaul. Overall, most items that are oriented around their health threshold are rather unchanged, since health is more a powerup stat than a response stat.

400 health

item 3800 Righteous Glory

  • Recipe: item 3010 Catalyst the Protector + item 3067 Kindlegem + 250g (total cost recuded to 2200g from 2500g)
  • +400 health (-100), +300 mana, +10% cooldown reduction
  • Health regeneration removed
  • Active and passive effects unchanged

A change dedicated to supports - they would very much like to purchase this item from time to time, but the cost seems a bit high and the item is currently a snowballing tool more than a strategized response. With changes to other CDR items, this item won't ever feel like an overshot. Crystalline Bracer builds into tons of other stuff now.

http://i.imgur.com/wca6mpV.png Leviathan (new item)

  • Recipe: item 1011 Giant's Belt + 1000g (total cost: 2000g)
  • +400 health
  • Unique Passive: Increase your maximum health by 15%.
  • Unique Active: For the next 5 seconds, displacements move you for 50% of the distance (time reduction on knockups, distance reduction on knockbacks). 60 second cooldown.

Knockups, knockbacks... Seems like the latest few dozen releases are overloaded with those. Since Tenacity does nothing to mitigate them, there is no way to work around heavy displacements. This solves the problem while requiring skillfull utilization (you have to anticipate the displacement) and not shutting down the caster (you're still under CC, you for shorter time). Raw stats are so-so, but situationally this could become really worthwhile. Bonus % health is just like the one on Spirit of the Ancient Golem, but scaling off total HP so that you don't feel bad when going for items like Frozen Heart. This is calculated into the cost - the item breaks even around 2500 health from other sources. Overall it's designed to be rather a finishing item than a starting one.

Other items with 400 health: Sunfire Cape, Randuin's Omen (see: Armor items, below); Banshee's Veil, Locket of the Iron Solari, Spirit Visage (see: Magic resistance items, below); Sanguine Orb (new item), Rod of Ages (see: The Mage Project)

600 health These items are meant for tanks and durability is their primary attribute.

item 3725 Juggernaut

  • Recipe: item 3067 Kindlegem + item 3801 Crystalline Bracer + 50g (total cost unchanged)
  • +600 health (+100), +100% health regeneration (new), +10% CDR, Tenacity

A much deserved buff to bring this item's gold efficiency in line with Magus and Warrior.

Other items with 600 health: Face of the Mountain (see: The Support Project); Frozen Mallet (see: The Fighter Project); The Breathstealer (new item, see: The Mage Project)

800 health Big chunk of health. No resistances on the items past that line.

item 3083 Warmog's Armor

  • Unchanged

With changes to BotRK in the Carry/Fighter Project, the item lost one of its main drawbacks, so I'd be careful about buffing it.

#Armor items Two tiers of armor: 50 for general armor items and 100 for the heavy anti-DPS ones.

50 armor The item's main strength is not the armor, but its utility.

Blackfrost Helmet

  • Recipe: item 3024 Glacial Shroud + item 3067 Kindlegem + 700g (total cost: 2500g)
  • +50 armor, +400 health, +300 mana, +20% CDR
  • Unique Passive: Reduce damage taken from critical strikes by 20%.

Just like with Morellonomicon, it's good enough for its stats, but the passive provides occasional extra value.

item 3025 Iceborn Gauntlet

  • +40 ability power (+10), +500 mana, +50 armor (-10), +10% cooldown reduction
  • Unique Passive – Icy/Spellblade: After using an ability, your next basic attack critically strikes and deals bonus magical damage equal to your crit modifier to surrounding enemies, creating a field for 2 seconds that slows enemies inside by 30% (1.5 second cooldown).
  • Unique Passive – Critical Strike Modifier: Your critical strikes deal magical damage equal to 100% of your armor. Only highest critical strike modifier applies.
  • Details will be talked over in the Carry/Fighter Project - basically crit is no longer 200% AD damage, but 100% AD + crit damage modifier. The default CDM is 100% base AD (like the in current Sheen proc), but it can be replaced by a higher scaling modifier.

Parallel to Sunfire Cape, it provides some tankiness-scaling AoE damage. The crit rework is fully explained in the Carry Project, for Iceborn Gauntlet all that matters is that instead of 125% base AD it will deal damage equal to 100% armor.

item 3056 Ohmwrecker

  • Combine cost increased to 950g (total cost increased to 2800g)
  • +400 health (+100), +100% health regeneration, +10% CDR
  • Passive and active effects unchanged

For a mid-lategame item this is painfully slot inefficient. This, hopefully, helps that.

item 3143 Randuin's Omen

  • +50 armor (-20), +400 health (-100)
  • Unique Passive – Cold Steel: When hit by basic attacks, reduces the attacker's attack speed by 15%.
  • Unique Passive – Shield Block: Blocks 5 - 45 damage from ranged basic attacks from champions depending on distance from the attacker (5 at 300 range, 45 at 700 range). This reduction applies after armor.

This item takes a huge hit to its raw stats, but now provides more protection against basic attacks when you have high armor rating from other items. Anyways, the armor+health+slow bundle made it a one-item wonder for bruisers that became a little bit too overused. Now it's better against ranged champions (and still usable by bruisers), but significantly worse against melee ones - and much like the current Thornmail, works best when you're already tanky from other items.

item 3068 Sunfire Cape

  • Recipe: item 1031 Chain Vest + item 3801 Crystalline Bracer + item 3801 Crystalline Bracer (total cost unchanged)
  • +400 health (-50), +50 armor (+5), +100% health regeneration (new)
  • Unique Passive: Deals 20 + (1% of your current health) magic damage per second to nearby enemies (400 range).

Sunfire gains some tank identity as well with regen and should be noticeably worse on bruisers. You can build it for towerdiving or surviving agaionst AD casters, but it needs other tanky items to scale its damage. The most important thing here is the soft taunt - hit its wielder and the item will deal less damage. This somewhat contradicts with some champion kits and Maw of Malmortius - you can use that fact to avoid mixing these two together, or to make a build that makes use of both situations.

Other items with 50 armor: Guardian Angel and Zhonya's Hourglass (both unchanged); Force of Nature (new), Moonflair Spellblade, The Vanguard (new) and Zz'Rot Portal (see: Hybrid resistance items, below); Chillwind Crown (new, see: The Mage Project)

100 armor No other resistances, just pure armor.

item 3110 Frozen Heart

  • +100 armor, +400 mana, +10% cooldown reduction (-10)
  • Unique Passive - Cold Steel: Reduces the attack speed of nearby enemies by 20%. (500 range: AS reduction up from 15%, range down from 700)
  • Unique Active - Icy: Slows the movement speed of nearby enemy units by 40% for 2 (+1 second per 500 bonus mana) seconds. 60 second cooldown (500 Range).

Less CDR (part of the CDR revamp), but gets the Randuin's active. The aura's range now matches the slowing active's range - any enemy with the snowflake particle above them will be caught in the slow. The identity here is: FH is better vs melee, Omen is better vs ranged. The mana scaling is there to make use of things like Righteous Glory and Iceborn Gauntlet if you were to feel like you're wasting gold on too much flat mana.

item 3075 Thornmail

  • Recipe: item 1031 Chain Vest + item 1031 Chain Vest + 700g (total cost increased to 2200g from 2100g)

Just a smoother buildpath, with price back from before patch 4.20.

#Magic Resistance items

item 3105 Aegis of the Legion

  • New recipe: item 1033 Null-Magic Mantle + item 3801 Crystalline Bracer + 800g (total cost unchanged)

Supports don't have too many free item slots and they could use this change since Bracer is a very neat item to sit on. Also, small changes to Hexdrinker and Quicksilver Sash are suggested (see: The Fighter Project)

30 magic resistance MR items with high amount of offensive stats (AD/AP): Athene's Unholy Grail (see: The Mage Project), Mercurial Scimitar, Maw of Malmortius and Wit's End (see: The Carry/Fighter Project)

50 magic resistance Heavy MR, but with other stats (such as health) bundled in.

item 3001 Abyssal Scepter

  • +60 ability power (-10), +50 magic resistance
  • Unique Passive: Reduces the magic resistance of nearby enemies by 25%. (700 range)

Redefined as a mage bruiser item, with less AP and more anti-MR approach (instead of squishy-stomping one). The debuff is weaker than the old one until about 90 MR (keep in mind flat reduction comes before % penetration, so the Abyssal on Live doesn't work well with % penetration from masteries or Void Staff).

item 3102 Banshee's Veil

  • Recipe: item 3211 Spectre's Cowl + item 3801 Crystalline Bracer + 800g (total cost lowered to 2600g from 2750g)
  • +400 health (-50), +50 magic resistance (-5), +100% base health regeneration
  • Unique Passive: Grants a spell shield that blocks the next enemy ability. This shield refreshes after no damage is taken from enemy champions for 30 seconds. (-10 second CD)
  • Unique Passive - Spectre's Regeneration: Grants 100% base health regeneration for 10 seconds after taking damage from an enemy champion. (new)

-5 MR, -50 health, +100% regen in combat, -160 cost and CD on spellshield is down from 40 to 30. Overall part of the tank identity revamp, emphasizing the anti-poke element while slighlty worsening its one-item wonder status for carries. Keep in mind this item granted 45 flat regen on passive procs before the regen changes happened. Even at +200% it cannot exceed that number.

item 3190 Locket of the Iron Solari

  • Combine cost increased to 250 from 50 (total cost increased to 3000 from 2800)
  • MR increased to 30 from 20
  • Aura unchanged
  • Active shields for 50 +100% MR (changed from 50 + 10 * level)

Shield scales with MR instead of levels, making the item less of a must-have item in every situation, and more a specialized purchase against AoE magical damage. Initial shield is more or less the same, but in the lategame it would be wise to pick up MR from other items.

item 3065 Spirit Visage

  • Combine cost lowered to 550g from 700g (total cost lowered from 2750g to 2600g)
  • +400 health, +50 magic resistance (-5), +100% base health regeneration, +10% cooldown reduction
  • Unique Passive: Increases your self-healing, health regen, life steal and spell vamp by 20%.

MR down by 5, cost down by 150. Part of the tank itemization revamp, as FoN will increase the MR granted by this item.

Other items that grant 50 MR: Banner of Command and Mikael's Crucible (see: The Support Project); Force of Nature (new), Guardian Angel, Moonflair Spellblade, The Vanguard and Zz'Rot Portal (see: Hybrid resistance items, below)

#Hybrid resistance items New component

Early season 4 was dominated by tanky bruisers with built-in %health magic damage. The likes of Shyvana and Mundo (also: BotRK Jax/Trundle) thrived on lack of hybrid resistance items to counter their kits. With this item in existence, it should be easier to balance out hybrid damage dealers and make them more satisfying while leaving options to play against them.

Dragonscale (new item)

  • Recipe: item 1029 Cloth Armor + item 1033 Null-Magic Mantle + 350g (total cost: 1150g)
  • +20 armor, +25 magic resistance
  • Passive – Reinforce: Whenever hit by a basic attack, your bonus armor and magic resistance increase by 5% for 5 seconds (effect stacks up to 3 times).
  • Builds into: Force of Nature (below)

This item is very much not cost efficient by itself unless the passive is triggered, and even then it depends on your bonus resistances (runes, other items, built-in steroids) - but should be a very clear response to hybrid damage. Having two Dragonscales gives you two stacks per one incoming attack.

Finished items Placed at 50 armor and 50 MR, these items belong to both groups at once.

http://i.imgur.com/hiEG97a.png Force of Nature (new item)

  • Recipe: item 2053 Raptor Cloak + Dragonscale (new) + item 3028 Chalice of Harmony + 150g (total cost: 3300g)
  • +50 armor, +50 magic resistance, +100% base health regeneration, +50% base mana regeneration
  • Unique Passive - Point Runner: Grants +30% bonus movement speed that builds up over 2 seconds while near turrets or Void Gates.
  • Unique Passive - Reinforce: Your bonus armor and magic resistance increase by 15%. This bonus is increased to 25% while Point Runner is active.
  • Unique Passive - Mana Font: Restore 2% of your missing mana per 5 seconds.
  • Unique Passive - Slow Resistance: Movement slowing effects are reduced by 25%. (Doesn't stack with Boots of Swiftness or Zephyr.)

Pretty much a "tank Deathcap" or "tank Triforce" suited for a lategame build, a soft response to % armor penetration items. It isn't particularly gold efficient on its own - combining the components gives absolutely zero bonus stats - but the slow resistance could be a godsend against permakiting champions. It can be situationally rushed as the first item if you're against a hybrid damage champion like Jax or Shyvana (which is when Dragonscale comes in handy) and you have enough built-in bonus resists to make use of the Reinforce passive (be that passive effects or defensive steroids). Otherwise, it's meant as a finishing item to improve the slot efficiency of your other defensive items.

item 3026 Guardian Angel

  • Unchanged.

item 3170 Moonflair Spellblade

  • Recipe: Seeker's Armguard + Negatron Cloak + 450g (total cost lowered to 2500g from 2600g)
  • +40 ability power (-10), +50 armor, +50 magic resistance
  • Unique Passive - Tenacity: Reduces crowd control duration by 35%

Introduced to Summoner's Rift with 10 less AP, better build path and price lowered by 100. Followup to changes to Abyssal Scepter - those two should make for a neat anti-mage mage bruiser build.

http://i.imgur.com/UNRnh50.png The Vanguard (new item)

  • Recipe: item 3024 Glacial Shroud + item 3211 Spectre's Cowl + 850g (total cost: 3000g)
  • +50 armor, +50 magic resistance, +200 health, +300 mana, +100% health regeneration, +10% cooldown reduction
  • Unique Active: Grants a shield equal to 10% of your maximum health for 5 seconds. While the shield persists, other nearby allies take 25% reduced damage from champion abilities. 90 second cooldown.

Soft taunt. "Hit me or you'll deal less damage to my team". The spell damage reduction does not affect yourself (you already have the shield, that should be enough). And yeah, The Vanguard becomes the one-and-only item to grant all three defensive statistics, ev en if the health amount isn't that impressive.

http://i.imgur.com/NC42ade.png Zz'Rot Portal (upcoming item in patch 5.1)

  • +50 armor, +50 magic resistance, +100% health regeneration
  • Unique Passive - Point Runner: Grants +30% bonus movement speed that builds up over 2 seconds when near turrets or Void Gates.
  • Unique Active: Spawns a Void Gate at target location for 150 seconds. Every 4 seconds the gate creates a volatile Voidspawn that travels down the nearest lane, attacking enemy minions and exploding when attacking structures, but ignoring champions and void targets. 150 second cooldown. Every additional Voidspawn after the third one gains damage equal to 50% of your armor + 50% of your magic resistance.

This item, already shipping in patch 5.1, allows tanks to push towers even though they lack basic attack damage. Should be helluva fun.

#Changelog

Several parts of this project have changed since it was posted the first time after your feedback. Rough notes:

  • "Colossus Chestplate" and "Force of Nature" merged into one item - A 70 MR item wasn't a good idea after all. Dragonscale component and the Chalice build persist.
  • Leviathan recipe changed (Kindlegem removed), active changed from displacement immunity to displacement reduction - CDR made it a somewhat good rushable item, so I got rid of that. Displacement reduction does exactly what was needed without being too strong against knockbacks or rendering Yasuo useless.
  • The Vanguard (changed from "Runic Vanguard") recipe changed to Glacial Shroud + Spectre's Cowl - Negatron Cloak is more fit for endgame items, and this one should be fairly rushable
  • Righteous Glory recipe changed (Kindlegem instead of Bracer)
  • Sunfire Cape recipe changed (FoN gets the Raptor Cloak build)
  • Numerous prices and numbers adjusted
  • Order of items in the whole post reorganized by categories (health, armor, MR, hybrid)

#The Other Parts of the Overhaul

Full list of all items

Thanks for getting through this wall of text, by the way. If you've just scrolled down here (which wasn't easy!), TL;DR was at the very top :)

23 Comments

The5lacker3 votes

I think the big problem with Tanks is that, just like Carry used to be, the name isn't really indicative of what you're supposed to be doing. In reality, Tanks are heavily armored, high damage, highly expensive weaponized vehicles. Tanks in League are nothing like that. In MMOs, Tanks are aggro-management damage sponges for unintelligent raid bosses to wail upon while the rest of their team takes it down. Tanks in League are kinda like that, but not really.

So I think the first change, before anything else, should be simple

Tank -> Guardian.

Guardians protect their more vulnerable teammates (what Tanks are supposed to do.) Guardians aren't lethal by themselves, but are hard to kill and harder to get through (what Tanks are supposed to be.) Guardians need to be durable but not indestructible, and need opportunities to both out-play their opponents and be out-played by their opponents (again, what Tanks need to be.)

With a name change comes a mentality shift, and then people can focus on what tanks NEED to be doing, as opposed to what people think they WANT tanks to be doing.

Pyro1 votes

The MMO term "tank" doesn't come from armored vehicles' firepower. It's about their ability to roll over everything while not taking damage.

Nautilus, Leona and Sejuani are tanks, but not really guardians. Tank is not necessarily a protector like Braum or Alistar. Sometimes, a tank is a heavy-hitting force of nature that leads the charge and holds the enemy down while their mages and archers unleash their arsenal. Sure, tanks can use their stuns to disrupt threats to their carry, but more often than not their fantasy consists of getting in the middle of the enemy team and paving the way for their allies.

What you call "Guardian" is simply what we currently have categorized as "Support/Tank" (Braum, Taric) or functionally similar (Maokai, Galio, Shen).

Guardians protect their more vulnerable teammates (what Tanks are supposed to do.)

Tanks are not always supports. Sometimes they're more team-oriented than rescue-oriented.

The simplest possible definition of "tank" in MOBA would be "a character that builds fully or almost fully defensive", leaving the question of "then what?" open.

The5lacker1 votes

A name for champions who roll in and deal and take decent amounts of damage? Hrm, I think we have that already.

FIGHTER.

Gunpoint2 votes

I like some of the points you've made, I'm just against the new items. I think we just need a solid HP/MR item that doesn't just fit a niche. For example, Spirit Visage is really only good on sustain dependent champions while Banshees costs so much extra gold for the unique passive which may not even be of much use to you.

Pyro1 votes

Keep in mind that currently, unlike the armor/HP items (Omen, Sunfire), the MR/HP items are very much gold efficient (you get the stats you pay for, and then the passive is a bonus).

Tanks who don't feel like benefitting from SV/BV (especially after the regen on these items took a HUGE hit in 4.20) can still go for Locket of the Iron Solari, which is a solid MR/HP item as well that contributes to a tank fantasy - tanking for their team.

So as far as MR/HP goes, we have three main options on Live. With this overhaul, that's one more Cowl upgrade for tanks (although with low HP).

And the new items here are not just "moar itemz". The current "typical" tank items are still just as gold efficient, but less slot efficient on their own, unless you get the multiplier items in the lategame. Also they provide some needed effects (CC reduction, soft taunt).

Altricad1 votes

There's a LOT to consider here, but I definitely support Tank scaling. WIth penetration stronger than ever, tank scaing will help help "offset" the penetration given by item 3035 and item 3135

That item 3068 change, you hit the nail on the head. Perfect change! The item's damage in early game was sometimes overbearing and late it was totally lack luster when compared to item 3143 , which offered better stats.

They definitely need to bring back %Health increase. It was a good concept and a decent counter to item 3153

item 3105 build path change was good too! I always found it awkward to fit 3 items when building towards that as a support. I mean, you need to buy item 2043 , your gold income item and potions that sometimes I didn't have space for the items. Might just be me, but the simplification would be nice.

Now if ONLY a Red saw this!

Pyro1 votes

They definitely need to bring back %Health increase. It was a good concept and a decent counter to item 3153

Nobody has ever build SotAG as a counter to BotRK. That purpose was served by Frozen Heart and Randuin's Omen.

SotAG's health increase was rather a compensation for tank junglers than a choice to be made.

Now if ONLY a Red saw this!

I think they do, they just don't have the time to reply to such a huge post.

Pyro1 votes

By the way, here are some excerpts from the previous month's thread. Quoted part is your feedback, underneath are my replies to it.

There is no need for knockback/knockup resistance. The very point of those CCs is their uncounterability.

Displacements are ubiquitous in the latest few champion releases. Out of the last 16 champions released (17 if you count Sion), only 3 of them don't have displacement in their kits: Jinx, Lucian and Lissandra.

Plus, Tenacity is actually more useful against knock-ups, as those are mostly short airborne times with an underlying stun.

That is simply not true. The only knockups with a stun are Alistar's Q, Nautilus's R and Sion's R. That's 3 out of 23 knockups in the game.

Righteous Glory is not supposed for supports - those have ready access to Talisman for the same purpose.

Top 5 users of RG are Thresh, Blitzcrank, Leona, Braum and Alistar. Talisman is a litle bit too weak in lane to risk getting it on Leona or Braum. That's maybe a problem with Talisman. My point stands, though.

Damage based on your own current health is not desirable. It punishes tanks for actually doing their jobs of eating damage for the team and then staying in the fray.

The idea is called "Soft Taunt" for a reason. A champion reaching for this version of Sunfire Cape is tanky enough to survive the fight already, now they want to provoke the enemy team to attack them instead of their teammates.

Hybrid resistances are not a thing for a reason, outside of one (soon to be two) item(s): Health is for universal defense. Resistances are for counterbuilding a specific type of damage. Meaning, if you want to get tankier in the general sense, you buy health.

That would be the case if Mundo's Infected Cleaver and Shyvana's Flame Breath did not exist, and Jax didn't combine % health physical damage from BotRK with his W/R magic damage procs (similarly with Trundle). Hybrid resistance items aren't really the core part of this project, but I feel like there's a need for them to exist.

Rest of the feedback was turned into changes to the project (yay) or left with no satisfying answer from my side (sorry).

Knight SoIaire 1 votes
  • Mitigating damage should be a bit more diverse

mitigating the damage is not the problem

the problem is "how to force enemies to hit me when i dont deal any damage"

and this can be solved by kit updates not item updates

mitigating the damage can come after that

Pyro1 votes

mitigating the damage is not the problem

It is when a fighter can become "tanky" with one item and do the tank's job while having consistent damage output to jungle creeps and towers. This is why the project nerfs base values on Omen and Sunfire and requires you to have more than one "tanky" item to be a true TANK.

the problem is "how to force enemies to hit me when i dont deal any damage"

Ctrl + F, "Soft Taunt"

see in this project: Sunfire Cape, The Vanguard - both challenge the enemy team to attack you

And yeah, champion kits are possibly another piece of the problem. This project is focused on what can be done through items, not how to solve every problem in every aspect of LoL.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

both challenge the enemy team to attack you

no they dont sunfire makes you deal damage so it faiils as a tank item vanguard makes it less profitable to atack others but its still better than unloading on you since you still dont do anything that would make it more profitable (deleting the adc > deleting a tank, and the tanks should be the one who forcibly takes your damage on himself)

what i meant by "how to force enemies to hit me when i dont deal any damage" is that tanks are supposed to work like braum, they should interact with damage in a way that makes enemies unable to unload on his carries

if you make items do the tanks work instead of their kits then one thing you said about might happen "It is when a fighter can become "tanky" with one item and do the tank's job while having consistent damage output to jungle creeps and towers" fighters will just build less ad and they will simply push the tanks out just like it is now sine they are usualy better at killing stuff and everything that tank does is already in items

as the game stands "tank" atribute is given to anyone who is just durable by default instead of champs who can negate damage effectively

while noble your changes wont bring anything to the game besides making many bruisers a full time tanks, while true tanks will get covered by bigger pile of dust

Hizsoo1 votes

It doesn't looks like a great thread, so I rather lazy to read it. DFG going to be removed inone of the next patches, so AP assassins/all burst mages won't be the biggest danger for tanks. Most of the Tank items are worth and costs what they are should be. After crit and all other items above 3300 gold cost receives changes(almost all of them worth more than what it costs), tanks will be in a lot better spot. The offensive items are where we rather need changes, that is my opinion. We(the community) will talk about this, after that happened.

Pyro1 votes

DFG going to be removed inone of the next patches, so AP assassins/all burst mages won't be the biggest danger for tanks.

That doesn't solve the problem of Last Whisper, Void Staff and BotRK being a little bit too good at the moment. This overhaul is an absurdly huge sketch, and %penetration/crit rework is a part of it.

Hizsoo1 votes

We better tear down the desired changes to smaller parts. I can deliver the thread about the critical strike changes, a modified version of a thread I created on an other, smaller LoL forum. If you would point out where did you wrote about the crit changes you want, that would also be helpful.

Pyro1 votes

C'mon, there are two copies of the projects list in this post, one at the top and one at the bottom ;)

The Carry&Fighter Project

Grimmrock1 votes

I hugely support tank itemization updates, aside from taking things away, nerfing, or the occasional slight buff ot items, tank itemization seems to be rarely touched, and in s5, I think thats a bad thing

EfficientDynamo1 votes

I like these ideas since at minimum they make us question gaps or deficiencies in builds. I especially like your crit counter item. Even if critical strikes remain the same in League, there should be a method of countering Yas and Trynd (plus late game ADC's). Building armor doesn't feel very effective. That said, I have no idea about the numbers required to make it a situational counterbuy without outright negating crit-dependent champs.

Desmond Law1 votes

item 3801 + item 3211 = Coat of Arms Unique Passive: When you take damage, regenerate 20% of your bonus health over 5 seconds.

Not sure how to limit the damage taken so it won't proc on minion bolts or something without it being crappy.

Vesarixx1 votes

I had a few other item suggestions

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/WIBY3ji0-tank-item-concepts

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

I enjoy the idea of tank scaling. It would make playing tanks more fun.

Pyro1 votes

This is a very old post. What brought you here?

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

I'm just now seeing it, so it's new to me. I primarily play tanks. I saw the sunfire rework, and I thought it would be more fun than the current version. I thought I'd get the ball rolling with the idea of tanks scaling.

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