Champions that need base damage increases to justify S5 Mana regeneration

Drunk Rummate··3 votes·1,493 views

Mana regeneration in season 4 was nearly unlimited with chalice. This certainly wasn't a good thing because it led to unlimited waveclear and game stalling with champions like Ziggs. However, the damage of these champions was unfortunately balanced around their (near) infinite mana from chalice, and now that they don't have access to the ability to spam, they're left in a very weak position. I think base damage values for the following champions should be looked into, which may be a nice way to 'nerf' the assassin meta (see: Zed) without actually nerfing the champions themselves. If landing a QW with orianna had a meaningful impact in lane, it may justify harassing back rather than just shielding and dodging Zed Qs for 30 minutes while you try to get to 3 items.

Orianna Ziggs Lux These are the 3 that jump out at me the most. There may be others. But right now it's difficult to actually get any meaningful harassment early-midgame with these champions due to excessive mana costs. As the game goes on they scale into pretty good damage, but their mana costs scale to absurdity as well. These high mana costs are offset by the fact that a couple of spells from these champions can be devastating, but until level 14+ they don't really have the mana regeneration to back that up. Compare this to a champion like Xerath who can keep his mana topped off with his passive to compensate for his lower early-game damage.

Something I've noticed with Orianna is that when I dump all my mana into harassing with QW, even if I land nearly every single spell, an enemy with 2 biscuits or 3 health potions can heal through almost all of it until I run out of mana. So even if I poke them really low, I have no way to force them out of lane because I'm completely out of mana by the time they're low enough to threaten. It's an issue when you're gated this severely with no midgame powerspike to compensate.

9 Comments

idoki3 votes

OP, please tell to me, would you like to get poked constantly by a champion whose harass isn't hard to hit (Orianna for example) without her having to pay for it? Orianna specifically has been a very good pick for 3 seasons now, and just thinking about her getting buffs makes me shiver.

Actual example: Orianna QW combo when you reach level 2 does 130 (maximum, in case your Q didn't go through any minions) base damage with 120% ap scaling, and costs 120 mana. Add to this masteries, runes, and BAM, 20% of your hp is gone. Now imagine it costs less mana/does more base damage. That's TERRIFYING, and the fact it's easy to land makes it even scarier.

I'm not saying some champions don't deserve some kind of mana-related buffs to accompany the mana regen changes, but just increasing base damage/reducing mana costs across the board a terrible way of tackling this problem, and will just shift the meta towards this kind of champions.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

I can't really comment on Ziggs or Lux, but with Orianna I find a little playstyle adjustment results in her still being strong. I use W less and auto more than I used to.

I think some mana costs probably need tuning with the Chalice nerfs. Certainly we are seeing a meta that involves an alarming number of manaless champions now.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

{quoted}

I can't really comment on Ziggs or Lux, but with Orianna I find a little playstyle adjustment results in her still being strong. I use W less and auto more than I used to.

I think some mana costs probably need tuning with the Chalice nerfs. Certainly we are seeing a meta that involves an alarming number of manaless champions now.

You can definitely get away with more on Orianna and Ziggs than Lux right now. Unfortunately her passive requires her to actually use an ability to activate, so even that is limited by mana. It's certainly possible to outplay a lane opponent with Orianna by getting a ton of auto attacks off on them, but let me ask you then - what if you were playing an AD champion instead? You would be rewarded significantly more for all of those auto attacks. EX: Jayce. Is that fair?

I can't imagine a world where your opponent just sits there and lets you auto attack them repeatedly. It seems to me that if Orianna ever gets enough auto attacks in lane to harass her opponent out, she probably seriously outplayed them. Especially if it's a manaless champion like Zed.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

It's certainly possible to outplay a lane opponent with Orianna by getting a ton of auto attacks off on them, but let me ask you then - what if you were playing an AD champion instead? You would be rewarded significantly more for all of those auto attacks. EX: Jayce. Is that fair?

It's a fair point. In general, I think Orianna got nerfed for sure. It's just that she was so good before that she's still pretty good.

As far as picking Ori over Jayce, I feel very good about it because Ori has all that utility and CC. Jayce needs a meta shift to a place where poke comps rule, and even then he has pretty serious mana issues of his own.

I can't imagine a world where your opponent just sits there and lets you auto attack them repeatedly. It seems to me that if Orianna ever gets enough auto attacks in lane to harass her opponent out, she probably seriously outplayed them. Especially if it's a manaless champion like Zed.

Zed is a good example of someone who gets beasted by autoattack Ori. Zed can't do a thing against Ori E (which you should take level 1), so he's either last hitting with Q or taking tons of right clicks. Easy to make him start longsword/3 and chug those pots.

disregardable1 votes

You have to build item 3040 and item 3165 early.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=faAMvUeB,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-01-12T19:34:38.002+0000)

You have to build item 3040 and item 3165 early.

That's exactly the problem. If you're including a tear in your build then you will have the mana to use your abilities a lot, but they will not do any meaningful damage. You're essentially delaying your build by 700 gold, and your powerspike already comes late if you're a scaling AP mage.

And if you don't build the tear, you still do piddly damage until 2-3 items and you're also extremely limited by mana consumption.

It's fine that some mages have late game identities, but currently it's impossible for many of them to get there. They have no meaningful presence in the early game since 5 abilities makes them oom and those 5 abilities hardly do any damage. If riot is going to nerf mana regen this hard, they at least need to let those few abilities we have do realistic damage to compensate.

Stevev451 votes

if you give Lux more base damage she will take over bot lane.

A Wild AP Sona1 votes

{quoted}

if you give Lux more base damage she will take over bot lane.

lux support is absolutely awful 0 damage 0 poke and you go oom after 3 spells you also cant heal your adc so its basically auto losing lane vs anyone without downs

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Why...why damage buff?

Why not a mana regen buff?

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