It looks like Warwick will be able to gank pre-6

The Ecdysiast·Jan 12, 2017·109 votes·4,619 views

That's perfect. Warwick's change actually looks like a perfect modernization.

80 Comments

ProfDrDeathJan 12, 201744 votes

From the looks of it, I'd consider Warwick the best (up to now) modernization VGU (not that we yet had many), and the standard those type of VGUs will be measured by.

Sion and Poppy, on the other hand, are the best examples for relaunch VGUs (which are the ones where a champion's kits completely change).

I hope that, when the time comes, Irelia 's and Chogath 's modernization VGUs will be similarily executed.

WoonStruckJan 12, 201715 votes

Uhhh, no.

Sion's was good. **Poppy's was not. **

They threw literally everything you could possibly put on a tank onto Poppy. High base stats, high armor/mr scaling, high HP scaling, efficient sheen use, high base damage, %HP damage, heavy lane harass, tons of CC, MS steroid, gapcloser, disengage...

That's an example of bad design: throw everything on it so you know it works. That's exactly why Irelia is bad design. She had everything a melee champion could want at the time of her release.

Don't get me wrong...Poppy's theme was really well done. Her gameplay mechanics were not.

ShadowParkerJan 12, 201745 votes

You can list off all the strengths of a champion and make them sound super overpowered, thing is you can do this for anyone of them.

Poppy's rework is one of the best, and was one of the more well received ones. Let's not confuse bad design with just being overtuned.

Only Play DariusJan 12, 20174 votes

I miss her obscene damage though. I wish they made her a Diver or Juggernaut instead of a Warden tank.

NineTailedMysticJan 12, 201712 votes

When she takes 70% of a squishies health, I'd say her damage is still pretty obscene for a Tank.

RalanrJan 12, 20177 votes

{quoted}

When she takes 70% of a squishies health, I'd say her damage is still pretty obscene for a Tank.

You see, that's where I disagree. Squishies are squishy for a reason.

NineTailedMysticJan 12, 20177 votes

Considering she's supposed to be a defensive Tank (Warden) and has CC attached to all 4 of her abilities, I find her damage to be rather outrageous.

An offensive Tank like Malphite, sure I can deal with him dealing a little more damage, but a Tank's threat should be CC, so the actual damage dealing teammates can kill them while their squishy is disabled. This is part of the reason why I think everything blows up so fast, because even Tanks can delete a squishy fairly easily. I get they need base damage to lane with, but I've always hated damage abilities scaling with defensive stats and %max HP damage on Tanks. Legit got outdueled in a game recently as Garen by Poppy while I was building damage (Phage, Caufield's) and she had a Bami's Cinder and Tabi's. No I didn't get stunned, yes I avoided as many back parts of Q as I could.

RalanrJan 12, 20173 votes

While she may be a Warden, she's primary a top laner and thus has to duke it out with other top laners. This is also why some tanks get %health damage (though I don't agree on Maokai getting it with an unavoidable ability).

Edit: if this was Alistar bursting people as full tank, then I'd be concerned because he's basically the most defensive tank out there and I barely notice him hurting at all. Probably why his tank build only works in bot (though maybe jungle can work again).

An Undead bratJan 12, 20173 votes

This. And there are still some stupid people that say "No, then she couldn't outtrade you!" Bullshit, with the Cinder/Sunfire she powerspikes so obscenely high that even though you stomped her in the early and she'S 0/3, she still bursts you even though you're finishing your second item.

RalanrJan 12, 20171 votes

I've seen Riven burst down people when behind.

An Undead bratJan 12, 20171 votes

Riven = agressive fighter/diver Poppy = defense tank/warden

RalanrJan 12, 20171 votes

Both are solo laners. Solo laners have more kill potential than supports.

Shen is a Warden and has kill potential in dps form.

An Undead bratJan 12, 20171 votes

...and should lose it faster than everyone else when behind because of her utility.

RalanrJan 12, 20172 votes

When behind they end up being squishier then intended and their damage falls off when people build some resistance items (because of %health damage).

Poppy's is probably more noticeable to squishies because there's no armor and AD item for them. Even so, buying one armor item like hourglass isn't going to completely gimp a %health damage output. Just reduce it.

The EcdysiastJan 15, 20171 votes

Considering any good tank nowadays can kill a squishy instead of just dealing 70%...

WoonStruckJan 12, 20173 votes

Its not just listing off her strengths.

She was given literally every single tool a tank could want. She has no weaknesses. If Poppy is in anywhere close to a decent state, there's no reason to pick another tank over her.

"You can make anyone sound OP by listing all of their strengths" is a fucking retarded argument because Poppy's entire issue is that she has TOO MANY strengths and essentially NO weaknesses.

The only possible thing that could be added to her kit that she doesn't already have is tank stats scaling her damage.

SzGamer227Jan 12, 20174 votes

If she has everything a tank could want, then why do I play Darius instead?

Even higher base stats
Better scaling on armor and damage
% missing HP heal (up to 45% with Spirit Visage... and Poppy has? Oh yeah, no sustain)
Very reliable cc for locking down multiple targets (point, click, pull everyone in a cone)
Automatic AD steroid for focusing an enemy champion (200 AD to be exact)
Free Armor Pen built into skill ranking (25% for maxing E)
Huge AoE damage (why settle for chunking down ONE target?)
Huge DoT damage (you may have escaped Darius, but you didn't escape the bleed...)
Brainless Black Cleaver abuse (touch and forget... the bleed just shreds the armor away)
Point and click true damage nuke (who wouldn't want this on their champion?) None of these are things that Poppy has that are obviously very powerful on a tank. "Literally every single tool" my ass.

Just because a champion has a lot of things doesn't mean they have "everything". We're not talking about a top-lane equivalent of Karma who is just so good at everything that there is no reason to play anything else. "I just listed a lot of things that a tank could want! There's no way anyone could want anything else because I didn't think of it!" is all I'm hearing you say bb

(Btw, as for tank stats scaling your damage... item 3748 every single melee tank can have this)

WoonStruckJan 13, 20172 votes

Because Darius isn't a tank. He's a juggernaut.

Poppy is a defensive tank that still shits out damage.

Papa AndreiJan 13, 20172 votes

No. Poppy is an anti champion. Her entire kit is designed to negate and deny. W dash block and repositioning. E displacement and stun. Q slow and %max health. R, displacement and knock back and anti engage. You keep comparing her to likes of Nautilus, Alastair, and other tanks. Poppy is a class unto her own,

ZyniXJan 13, 20172 votes

The Janna of tanks.

Papa AndreiJan 13, 20171 votes

exactly

Meep ManJan 12, 201717 votes

Poppy's rework is fine excuse you. It's just that her numbers need tuning right now due to new found strength in Courage of the Collosus.

Also, HOW many times are we going to go over this people? You can list everything a champion has and most of the updated roster sounds OP.

Laughing FishJan 12, 201712 votes

A free guardian angel, no mana costs, free sustain, obscene attack speed buffs, mobilty, 2 forms of CC, and extra damage on hit.

Aatrox is the REAL OP champ

DessemJan 13, 20172 votes

Damage reduction on-hit, spammable long-range attack that can lock-on, huge shield, on-hit slow, 20% armour shred built into kit, damage reduction for self, suppression and AoE fear.

Urgot

RalanrJan 12, 20174 votes

Ryze and Taric were modernized VGUs.

SquashCannonJan 12, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Ryze and Taric were modernized VGUs.

Taric was completely changed, not a modernization at all.

RalanrJan 12, 20173 votes

Still has a stun, heal, and armor scaling. Now he just has better and more noticeable teamfight utility.

Really it feels like a modernization of his kit. Especially when comparing to how Warwick's rework is going.

SquashCannonJan 12, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Still has a stun, heal, and armor scaling. Now he just has better and more noticeable teamfight utility.

Really it feels like a modernization of his kit. Especially when comparing to how Warwick's rework is going.

There are two ways I can address your response here. I'll start with the simulation response.

Try taking warwick jungle, he didnt change much right hes still a jungler.

Try taking taric top lane, the rework killed it off.

RalanrJan 12, 20173 votes

Remember how Taric was originally intended as a support and top lane was an off role? You know how Riot balances champions around their intended role?

Warwick was intended for the jungle. Taric was not intended for top.

WoonStruckJan 12, 20172 votes

Taric was actually a bruiser originally. Same deal with Blitz.

He might have been balanced as a support once Riot decided they wanted to shove their idea of a meta up our ass, but you can't say "originally intended as a support".

PB4UAMEJan 13, 20171 votes

This, and they killed his amazing burst.

He used to be a great support because he had reliable single target engage/peel, AoE buffs to his team, and also had solid AoE burst damage (especially in lane and with ganks/early dragon fights) with okayish sustain as well. The rework kept precisely none of that except the sustain, giving him and AoE delayed Kayle ult, instead of powerful auras, and a conditional line stun that together with his R ate the power budget for poor Taric.

SquashCannonJan 12, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Remember how Taric was originally intended as a support and top lane was an off role? You know how Riot balances champions around their intended role?

Warwick was intended for the jungle. Taric was not intended for top.

Remember how riot said they supported his top lane viability and would try to keep it alive? Well it didnt, his kit got changed to the point where top taric died. Also, as someone pointed out, he was meant to be a bruiser but ended up being a good support since his heal let him survive poke and his targeted stun had a ton of power especially as skillshots became more and more prevalent.

WoonStruckJan 12, 20172 votes

He was actually better before, and had better tuning levers.

Taric's ult prevents him from being a manageable balance project now.

RalanrJan 12, 20171 votes

He seems pretty balanced now.

WoonStruckJan 12, 20172 votes

What, you mean how he's never used in a primarily AD meta?

Yeah, seems totally fine.

RalanrJan 12, 20172 votes

Neither are Malphite and Rammus.

I'm not sure it's a primary AD meta since midlane mages are still strong.

AlmightyJan 12, 20172 votes

Darling, you are forgetting someone very important.

Taric

Almighty.

ProfDrDeathJan 12, 20172 votes

Guess I was blinded by fabulousness. But yeah, he's also a good example for a successful modernization.

Golden Tager XJan 12, 20172 votes

Taric his is right up there too, minus the ult change

FPSKILLERBOBJan 12, 20172 votes

I want Irelia to focus more on telekinesis and be a kind of long range caster tank.

FPSKILLERBOBJan 12, 20172 votes

Floating swords are too cool of a concept to have Irelia more or less holding them

badoogaJan 13, 20171 votes

Aatrox , as well.

Toa of DeathJan 13, 20171 votes

As a Cho main, I think a modernization VGU would fit way better than a full relaunch VGU. His kit isn't really terrible currently, I think it just feels really slow and easy to dodge.

ProfDrDeathJan 13, 20171 votes

Yeah, exactly my thoughts.

Maybe his E could use a little touch of work, but not too much, either.

Fondling GemsJan 12, 20177 votes

Inb4 WW still powerfarms till lv 18. JK, got to play him and you practically feel forced to gank just from the emotional pump W can give.

5000000000000000Jan 12, 20173 votes

The spell that made a Janna man dive two towers deep for a kill

WAP JookayJan 12, 20176 votes

Powerfarm in Season 7 LUL

Fondling GemsJan 12, 20172 votes

That just means he was farming for 10 minutes before ganking right? /s

The TrentJan 13, 20171 votes

I never understood why WW couldn't gank before 6. It would be like a Shyvana gank pre 6. It's like everyone just kinda came together and decided to forbid it for no reason.