As a jungle assassin main

Visigoth··6 votes·3,087 views

Mainly Khazix and Nocturne (who I play full AD, more fun)

I don't really have a problem with the tank meta. I personally like it better than how it was season 4, where I got called a FotM faggot for picking the first champion I ever really learned Khazix, or the Feral Flare days being called FotM for playing Nocturne, literally the first champion I ever played (albeit awfully). The tank meta is healthier, it gives more counter play and more diversity, since tanks are actually worth taking (whereas in previous metas they were garbage and couldn't even do a little damage to glass cannons), and yet other picks are also viable.

The only problem I have is how weak other champions are compared to tanks like Sejuani and Gragas. Yeah, Olaf can do well, but why bother when Sejuani can have 10x more CC and just as much damage. And why even play stuff like Diana when you have virtually no mana sustain, and still way less CC.

Tank junglers are not too strong, all other junglers are just too weak. All season Riot has tried to make junglers have less impact, and in doing so they have made it a role with less diversity, which is the opposite of what they originally wanted to do. They wanted junglers, for some reason, to be nearly useless until super late game. They refused to allow junglers to be able to sway the fight in lanes, but wasn't that the original purpose?

After wave after wave of nerfs to non-tank junglers, and then buffs to tanks, the jungle has just been poorly, poorly balanced. You can either nerfs X or buff Y, you can't do both, or else Y becomes much stronger in comparison.

15 Comments

djjomon3 votes

Most people seem to be missing the point here. I think I get it.

Cinderhulk brought tank junglers back into the game. Team comps got tankier, fights got longer, more sustain based. This (one would think) would push assassins out of favor. But they're still viable in the midlane. Jungle however, not so much. Yeah they're playable, but not quite strong enough to keep up.

What the tank meta did not do, is push out bruisers. That's why we still see Rek'Sai, Vi, J4, Lee Sin, etc. The tradeoff becomes what you're looking for. More damage, or more tank/utility? Bruisers and tanks in the jungle have different purposes. That's diverse.

Unfortunately, that doesn't help assassins much. Tanks won't die to an assassin all-in, as we all know. And that's good. Tanks shouldn't die to one spell-rotation. Bruisers, before getting tanky, might die to assassins 1v1. But that's if the assassin has damage items. Assassins need items to get going, but by the time they'd be in a comfortable spot to fight effectively, the bruiser is getting tanky already.

That aside, let's look at jungle goals. Farm, gank, take objectives, ease pressure off lanes, teamfight. Bruiser junglers can do all of these effectively, but they're best at ganks and faster fights.

Tanks junglers don't farm as well, and some don't gank as well, but they typically teamfight really well. They have strong initiation, team utility (usually AoE CC), and they're just plain hard to kill. Along with that, some have sustain/regen, some have shields, etc.

Assassins, now, play quite differently. They generally farm until 6, then start looking for kills. Yes, assassins can gank before 6, yes they can take objectives, yes they can teamfight. But an assassin's main job is to kill a squishy carry. They don't have the intiation of a tank, nor the durability of even a tank-building bruiser. They have one job. And currently this job isn't favorable. More tanks results in longer fights, more spell rotations, more healing, more shielding. Assassins don't want this.

Theorchero1 votes

{quoted}

Most people seem to be missing the point here. I think I get it.

Cinderhulk brought tank junglers back into the game. Team comps got tankier, fights got longer, more sustain based. This (one would think) would push assassins out of favor. But they're still viable in the midlane. Jungle however, not so much. Yeah they're playable, but not quite strong enough to keep up.

What the tank meta did not do, is push out bruisers. That's why we still see Rek'Sai, Vi, J4, Lee Sin, etc. The tradeoff becomes what you're looking for. More damage, or more tank/utility? Bruisers and tanks in the jungle have different purposes. That's diverse.

Unfortunately, that doesn't help assassins much. Tanks won't die to an assassin all-in, as we all know. And that's good. Tanks shouldn't die to one spell-rotation. Bruisers, before getting tanky, might die to assassins 1v1. But that's if the assassin has damage items. Assassins need items to get going, but by the time they'd be in a comfortable spot to fight effectively, the bruiser is getting tanky already.

That aside, let's look at jungle goals. Farm, gank, take objectives, ease pressure off lanes, teamfight. Bruiser junglers can do all of these effectively, but they're best at ganks and faster fights.

Tanks junglers don't farm as well, and some don't gank as well, but they typically teamfight really well. They have strong initiation, team utility (usually AoE CC), and they're just plain hard to kill. Along with that, some have sustain/regen, some have shields, etc.

Assassins, now, play quite differently. They generally farm until 6, then start looking for kills. Yes, assassins can gank before 6, yes they can take objectives, yes they can teamfight. But an assassin's main job is to kill a squishy carry. They don't have the intiation of a tank, nor the durability of even a tank-building bruiser. They have one job. And currently this job isn't favorable. More tanks results in longer fights, more spell rotations, more healing, more shielding. Assassins don't want this.

Tldr Assassins in jungle are bad, still good in mid lane.

djjomon1 votes

Pretty much

Tourian1 votes

If you're running out of mana on Diana jg you're doing it wrong. The only ability you need to clear camps is her w. If you're full comboing camps of course you're going to run out.

ABlueQuaker1 votes

Yeah. Once you get going W and Auto-Attacks should be sufficient to clear camps.

If you actually play Diana as an Assassin, you should be getting Lich Bane any way which also gives you a bit more of a mana pool.

ABlueQuaker1 votes

Olaf is actually pretty strong Top Lane at the moment so I'm happy with how he is. Rush item 3078 item 3110 item 3065 and you're set.

Nucleophilic atk1 votes

and in doing so they have made it a role with less diversity

Bull fucking shit. I actually get to play a game where I don't see Vi, J4, and Lee sin EVERY SINGLE GAME. If you want to make a post about how you think assassin junglers are too weak, fine. But don't say it in a way that is completely wrong.

Sona Ping2 votes

You don't seem to get what he is saying (as it reads).

[{quoted}](name=Best Scyther KR,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fUUOIsF2,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-04-24T05:58:34.471+0000) All season Riot has tried to make junglers have less impact, and in doing so they have made it a role with less diversity, which is the opposite of what they originally wanted to do.

The first jungle changes made by Riot had Vi, J4, and Lee sin be chosen all the and now, according him, the same tank picks like Sejuani and Gragas are chosen all the time and neither of these two results would be the diversity that Riot said they wanted as the capability to jungle for other champions outside these two pools is less than it was in Season 4.

Nucleophilic atk1 votes

Sej has a 77% ban rate...she is rarely picked. I completely get what he is trying to say. It is just wrong, though lol.

Hasztalan24 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nucleophilic atk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fUUOIsF2,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-04-24T14:17:46.712+0000)

Sej has a 77% ban rate...she is rarely picked. I completely get what he is trying to say. It is just wrong, though lol.

You sir are an idiot.

As for OP don't bother. Riot doesn't understand this for 3 years now doubt they'Ll be enlightened by 1 post on a forum what they don't read.

Nucleophilic atk1 votes

So, pointing out that a champ with a 77% ban rate isn't picked all the time, as he said, makes me an idiot? Please elaborate since I don't understand business major logic.

Visigoth1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nucleophilic atk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fUUOIsF2,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-04-24T14:17:46.712+0000)

Sej has a 77% ban rate...she is rarely picked. I completely get what he is trying to say. It is just wrong, though lol.

The fact that she has a 77% ban rate and still a 10% pick rate means she is either picked or banned in almost 90% of games. In 13% of games she isn't banned or picked. What I'm saying is this year jungle has gone from 2 or 3 ridiculously strong picks and switched over to another 2 or 3 ridiculously strong picks. No champion should have the highest ban rate and still manage to be one of the more picked champions. If that isn't being a popular pick then I guess Jinx's over 30% pick rate isn't either.

Nucleophilic atk1 votes

I'm not arguing that she isn't strong....I'm just saying he was wrong in saying she is picked all the time, because she isn't. Also, having 2/3 strong champs doesn't mean there isn't diversity. You could play A LOT of junglers this season and be effective...thta sounds like pretty good diversity to me.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Having invisible champions with the freedom of map movement so they can come out of nowhere and instakill you, no thanks. It's an unhealthy game mechanic.

Hard4Hamsters1 votes

I'm so sad that Gragas Gragas may be getting nerfed from this. His ult offers so much utility, whether it be intitiating or disengaging fights. That with the cc in his kit makes him strong. His early game is stronger than most tank junglers which is why I think he's a favorable pick. But as it stands right now, if he gets nerfed, he will become so much weaker in top or middle lane, where he is already weak in. (his laning was gutted when they reduced damage to his Q on minions)

I understand that Riot wanted Gragas to be a tanky in your face brawler, but he would get bullied out harder than before in lane if he gets nerfed.

I honestly thought he was going to become a support pick when they recently buffed his Q slow and gave him more mana at level 1. But after Cinderhulk became the jungle item for tanks, he found a home in the jungle.

I don't know how they will nerf Gragas if they do, but I honestly think he's in a healthy spot right now. His damage is relatively low, particularly in the late game. (his W is single target and it is the only damage source that scales into the lategame) So he really only provides utility in his CC and and displacement on top of his tankiness.

Sejuani is definitely first in line of the tank junglers to be getting a nerf, she has damage on top of her CC and tankiness. She also has an ability that scales off of her max HP, making her one of the biggest abusers of Cinderhulk. They have already nerfed her once by reducing the slow on her "missed" ult (it was a tad ridiculous), but they still need to reduce her damage a bit before she can be in a healthier spot. Probably reduce the scaling on her max health for her W.

Cinderhulk could probably be nerfed a little bit as well. Possibly they could reduce the damage it outputs to champions or just bring it to a point where it wouldn't outclass Sunfire Cape. This could help reduce toplane smite Shyvanna that people complain about a lot. (I don't mind this at all, or really cinderhulk in general but I imagine nerfs will happen eventually if tank junglers keep crowding out other junglers).

Bottom line. If Gragas gets nerfed, I just hope it's a small one. He's been my favorite champion since his rework and I am glad that he is seeing competitive play (particularly his tanky build). His build options are very diverse as he can be played as a tanky brawler or a mid range mage or somewhere in the middle and he can still be relevant. He has so much utility that he can be played in a variety of positions (Top, Mid, Jungle, and Support) and has multiple playstyles. Gragas's Ult can be gamechanging but it can also mean the death of your team if you use it incorrectly. He is sitting at a high winrate currently, which is why I think he will be eventually looked at as a problem, but I hope they just revert the slow increase on his Q as I thought that was a bit unnecessary. If he continues to be a problem after that, they may have to increase his CD's somewhere.

Lastly, I apologize that this isn't exactly what the OP was discussing. But I do agree with what he said about buffing X and nerfing Y. I think that is what happened. They nerfed all of the fighter junglers (besides Lee, lol), and had been giving buffs to Tank junglers (Gragas wasn't seen much as a jungler before this; he was seen more of a Meta Top or Middle laner) before the release of Cinderhulk (which was a huge buff to ALL tank junglers). Cinderhulk accompanied buffs to other tank junglers (though Volibear and Zac see far less play), and then we saw Sejuani reign supreme over every other jungler until she became a 60% ban. Pros then looked to find the "discount Sejuani" and in that they found Gragas, who honestly has a similar playstyle. Gragas became FotM and now he sees a high ban and pick rate with a 50%+ winrate across all tiers of play. Now we are looking at a buff to fighters in the new Black Cleaver and players are calling for tank jungler/cinderhulk nerfs. I'm afraid that Riot will overdo it a little bit when figthers/bruisers get a few more buffs and they nerf the tanks a patch or two later. I read something about the balance team waiting out this current meta a little bit to see what happens as people adjust before they make changes. It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few patches after 5.8.

To the OP, I'm glad you are having fun with Kha'zix as I think he is one of the champions who needs a buff soon (something small) to bring him back into the realms of viability outside of Yolo-queue. And I think Nocturne is going to become a stronger pick in the near future. He has been seeing little buffs here and there, and I think one little thing is going to push him into a contested pick, so keep at it.

If you actually read this entire post, thank you. I ramble a lot on these boards and sometimes, my posts go pretty long. I hope everyone can see where I'm coming from (we've all had that favorite champion that sees competitive and then gets nerfed). I like that they added Cinderhulk as it did give tank junglers strength in the game. I really don't mind that Shyvanna takes smite toplane sometimes. I hope that Riot reverts some of the changes they made to fighters in recent patches to bring them back into their roles as early game junglers. Rek'sai, Vi, and Jarvan's nerfs were decisions made before Cinderhulk was added. They are still decent picks, but they don't have nearly the amount of early game pressure they used to to make up for how much they are outclassed by tank junglers now. The window for these champions to make plays were effectively shortened so that they are only relevant for 10-15 minutes of the game before tank junglers begin to surpass them in effectiveness. Riot sometimes needs to buff champions instead of nerfing the ones that are strong. I understand that sometimes a champion is actually OP and they need nerfs, but it is not the only way to balance the game.

More from Gameplay

More by Visigoth