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Can we take away some of the utility and safety of top tier champs without hitting damage numbers?

Kingsgrave··3 votes·440 views

Hitting their numbers doesn't really solve any of their actual problems especially when most top tier champions are known for their damage and their play patterns. Taking away the extra bonuses, aka trimming the fat, could make them healthier without just destroying them completely.

The general goal is to make them harder to play and less safe overall, and if they are picked for them to be picked for being their particular playstyle or champion and not because of the extra fluff their kit provides them.

LeeSin

  • True Sight on Q removed but remains on E
  • Missing Health damage on Q2 removed
  • 5/10/15/20/25% Spellvamp on W2 removed but it still has 5/10/15/20/25% Lifesteal

JarvanIV

  • 10/14/18/22/26% Armor Reduction removed on Dragon Strike (Q)
  • Passive Armor and Attack Speed removed from E Flag
  • Attack Speed Aura on E Flag removed

Zed

  • Passive no longer triggers on Minions or Monsters
  • % Bonus Attack Damage removed from W
  • W Energy Restore reduced to 20 at all ranks from 20/25/30/35/40

Gnar

  • Mega Gnar no longer has increased Health Regeneration or Resistances
  • Mini Gnar W now has a 12/11/10/9/8 second CD per target shown with an indicator beneath them for only Gnar to see
  • Mini Gnar E no longer grants Attack Speed
  • Ultimate damage does not increase by 50% if enemies are Stunned into a Wall
  • Ultimate does not Slow targets if they are not Stunned into a Wall

Irelia

  • Passive awards 8% Tenacity per nearby Enemy Champion instead of 10% at 1, 25% at 2 and 40% at 3
  • Passive Health per auto on W removed but the Healing on Active remains
  • E stun now scales with Irelia's percentage health, going from .75 at 100% to 2 at 40% health
  • E no longer slows

Janna

  • Can no longer end her R channel early but the total time to reach max heal reduced to 2 seconds from 3 seconds

Riven

  • Cooldown on Q ends after the 3rd cast rather than after the 1st cast
  • Bonuses from Ultimate end when she uses the Active

12 Comments

Leaf of the lake3 votes

Read as: "This how to gut these champs."

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Leaf of the lake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQxBLemz,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-02-01T00:41:39.200+0000)

Read as: "This how to gut these champs."

Would you rather their numbers just be destroyed damage wise and them have all this needless fluff and utility with nothing to show for it? ** None of these champions become unable to win or become shitty if they get these changes.**

Zmuecat2 votes

I think we'd rather you think about your changes.

Your proposed Janna change of ending her ult? Why not just make her hold up a sign saying "I LITERALLY CAN'T MOVE".

And her Q change? What's the point of charging it if the CC doesn't change?

Kingsgrave1 votes

{quoted}

I think we'd rather you think about your changes.

Your proposed Janna change of ending her ult? Why not just make her hold up a sign saying "I LITERALLY CAN'T MOVE".

And her Q change? What's the point of charging it if the CC doesn't change?

Has to be closer, removes some of her peel from higher ranges

Has to think of when to use R more often

Leaf of the lake1 votes

Most janna players don't fully channel her ult. She's already losing out on the heal by not fully channeling it. That's the decision making in that move. First, when to use it, Second, how long to stay in it. It's already on a very long CD, with most engage oriented ults on a shorter one, so there's a window of opportunity for the enemy team while janna's ult is down.

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Leaf of the lake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQxBLemz,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-01T01:11:54.027+0000)

Most janna players don't fully channel her ult. She's already losing out on the heal by not fully channeling it. That's the decision making in that move. First, when to use it, Second, how long to stay in it. It's already on a very long CD, with most engage oriented ults on a shorter one, so there's a window of opportunity for the enemy team while janna's ult is down.

I lowered the time it takes to heal.

Honestly the decision really isnt there, since most often I never see Janna's full ultimate used. She just uses it for the instant knockback. She has to actually use her full ability now.

Leaf of the lake3 votes

Your janna change would render her ult unusable, and lead to her subsequent drop into urgot tier. Your j4 change would remove a huge amount of utility he has, essentially just making him a drastically worse vi. Your lee change would remove a vital part of his damage (the Q execute), which is the exact opposite of "not destroying him numbers-wise." Removing the resistances from mega gnar largely defeats the point of him being tanky in mega gnar form, and the rest of those nerfs on top of that are incredibly heavy handed. Nerfing azir q range would drastically reduce the safety with which he can stay in lane, which is the only thing that keeps him alive in this meta of assassins; at that point, all the other nerfs are just overkill, including the removal of a healthy mechanic that encourages decision-making (using W on towers).

All in all, I would never want you on any balance team ever. Your nerfs are incredibly heavy handed, and would result in the gutting of every champion you ever touch.

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Leaf of the lake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQxBLemz,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2015-02-01T01:00:32.343+0000)

Your janna change would render her ult unusable, and lead to her subsequent drop into urgot tier. Your j4 change would remove a huge amount of utility he has, essentially just making him a drastically worse vi. Your lee change would remove a vital part of his damage (the Q execute), which is the exact opposite of "not destroying him numbers-wise." Removing the resistances from mega gnar largely defeats the point of him being tanky in mega gnar form, and the rest of those nerfs on top of that are incredibly heavy handed. Nerfing azir q range would drastically reduce the safety with which he can stay in lane, which is the only thing that keeps him alive in this meta of assassins; at that point, all the other nerfs are just overkill, including the removal of a healthy mechanic that encourages decision-making (using W on towers).

All in all, I would never want you on any balance team ever. Your nerfs are incredibly heavy handed, and would result in the gutting of every champion you ever touch.

Heavy handed doesnt even begin to describe these changes. Most of these are barely even nerfs compared to what heavy handed changes would really look like.

Jarvan doesn't need the Armor Reduction, Passive Armor or AS aura to be useful compared to Vi. He still does higher damage in a shorter time frame than her. He still has more mobility on lower CDs with a lot less windup. He has more CC than she does.

Gnar already stacks Health and Resists, why does he need an extra 36 at level 18 in mega form when he already has a tremendous amount of CC and damage, higher than most Melees while in Mega if he lands his full combo.

Azir's might have been overboard, removed it.

Lee doesn't need a high amount of damage when he is never picked for it. Why does he need to have an execute when he already has a tremendous amount of utility and mobility?

Leaf of the lake1 votes

Look at the last patch. Do you see the zed nerf? That's a love tap. Do you see the fizz nerf? That's a heavy handed nerf, and they even "compensated" him by giving him a damage amp on his ult. Now look at your changes. Which do they more resemble? Zed? Or fizz?

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Leaf of the lake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQxBLemz,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2015-02-01T01:21:24.706+0000)

Look at the last patch. Do you see the zed nerf? That's a love tap. Do you see the fizz nerf? That's a heavy handed nerf, and they even "compensated" him by giving him a damage amp on his ult. Now look at your changes. Which do they more resemble? Zed? Or fizz?

That fizz change wasn't heavy handed, they just rearranged his damage combo. They only took away 1 thing which was his grievous wounds. The damage amp isnt compensation since the damage is almost exactly the same if he lands R first as it was pre nerf.

You can't balance things by just love tapping and then waiting 8 patches. Thats what Riot does and it doesnt work honestly.

Leaf of the lake1 votes

Are we playing the same game here? Fizz could dance around whole teams before while insta-gibbing any one target he chose with his incredibly short CDs. Now, he has to rely on a considerably longer CD skillshot ult to burst a champion, and gives time for the enemy to react and peel. I've played against a very fed fizz since the patch; it's not even close to the same terror that was a fed fizz before, and a non-fed fizz is more of an annoyance than anything. The fizz nerfs were heavy handed, and so are your proposed nerfs to these champs. I think only zed would survive the gutting. Every single other one would fade into obscurity, never to be seen again.

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Leaf of the lake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQxBLemz,comment-id=0000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-01T02:05:09.410+0000)

Are we playing the same game here? Fizz could dance around whole teams before while insta-gibbing any one target he chose with his incredibly short CDs. Now, he has to rely on a considerably longer CD skillshot ult to burst a champion, and gives time for the enemy to react and peel. I've played against a very fed fizz since the patch; it's not even close to the same terror that was a fed fizz before, and a non-fed fizz is more of an annoyance than anything. The fizz nerfs were heavy handed, and so are your proposed nerfs to these champs. I think only zed would survive the gutting. Every single other one would fade into obscurity, never to be seen again.

Jarvan still has 450+150% Bonus AD physical damage on his Ultimate Jarvan still has a 490 damage QE combo on an effective 13 second CD Jarvan only loses his safer jungle clear and his teamwide utility of 26% armor reduction for 3ish seconds

Jarvan would be fine

Janna would remain a counterpick to high engage teams and I don't think she would honestly be destroyed since she still has a slow, MS increases and a good shield with a good heal. She can also heal a lot faster than before.

Riot said Gnar wasn't supposed to be a highly reliable always played champion that he is currently in LCS and in solo queue, so losing a lot of safety will still keep him playable. He has a high amount of damage and utility still, I only made him less safe.

Lee Sin is less safe and less forgiving but still just as mobile and just as fast at clearing, just less safe.

Irelia is less safe and is still generally the same as before, just less forgiving and has to work for her bonuses. More windows of downtime. Perhaps numbers on her W CD could be adjusted, but I don't think she would fade into obscurity like you claim.

Zed changes make him more conscious of how he trades and fights in lane. Not even close to gutting him. Sure you could just lower damage or increase CDs but that just opens up windows to fuck em up instead of just making him less safe in general by trimming the fat. The only "gutting" aspect is removing his 100 or so additional AD he gets late game which with his damage amp R and low CDs I dont think he honestly needs to be a good character.

Fizz never should have been able to 100-0 people without his Ultimate anyway. I don't see a logical change that actually makes him played correctly is heavy handed as a change.

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