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Can we Start to rework anti-fun champs?

Ahristocats··72 votes·7,000 views

not even rework them entirly just change few spells

why Rengar is allowed to make your map gray every 60 sec without a counterplay? his ! doesn't matter if he has item 3117 item 3142 , he can see you from 4000 range, and you can't. why Kalista stops you from playing if you are an immobile melee? why Vayne is so cancer? why Yasuo is allowed to delete no matter what 1 of your spell unless you step RIGHT in front of him at the begining of the fight?

and keep in mind that isn't all the list it's just few one, there are so many mechanics like Irelia 's E, encouraging you to not damage her, punishing you for doing good.

{quoted}

anti-fun is a design philosophy created by riot and zileas told that it was a design of a champion that didn't allowed the enemies to do their job without them being able to prevent you from preventing them from doing their job

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=293417

Fun Fails to Exceed Anti-Fun Anti-fun is the negative experience your opponents feel when you do something that prevents them from 'playing their game' or doing activities they consider fun. While everything useful you can do as a player is likely to cause SOME anti-fun in your opponents, it only becomes a design issue when the 'anti-fun' created on your use of a mechanic is greater than your fun in using the mechanic. Dark Binding is VERY favorable on this measurement, because opponents get clutch dodges just like you get clutch hits, so it might actually create fun on both sides, instead of fun on one and weak anti-fun on another. On the other hand, a strong mana burn is NOT desirable -- if you drain someone to 0 you feel kinda good, and they feel TERRIBLE -- so the anti-fun is exceeded by the fun. This is important because the goal of the game is for players to have fun, so designers should seek abilities that result in a net increase of fun in the game. Basic design theory, yes?

[{quoted}](name=Lovely Pants,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQwa8hLc,comment-id=0018,timestamp=2016-01-04T14:43:06.084+0000)

Riot's open policy on this just doesn't support what you are saying and I feel you really want to be making your case against that instead. They are consistently willing to introduce noticeably anti-fun mechanics if they think the benefits on the player's side are worthwhile.

if they no longer care about player's feeling, they should say it first, and then revert a lot of mechanics that got removed due to -being anti fun. Mana burn is one of them, so is : -twitch 60 sec stealth forcing players to play safe, -pantheon full map ulti again forcing people to play safe,

  • jax dodging 50% of your attack and forcing you to buy an item, they could just improved sword of the divin, but they changed it from a passive to an active. -the freaking denyplank

271 Comments

Malicious Metal57 votes

Let's be real. Every champ is anti-fun in their own way. Some are just more obnoxious

Ahristocats17 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQwa8hLc,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-01-04T10:56:38.909+0000)

Let's be real. Every champ is anti-fun in their own way. Some are just more obnoxious

straight up wrong

Sion for example, has counterplay on everything on his spell. His cc prevents you from playing but you are able to not be cc'ed. His Q has 2 sec channel, his W deals 10% of your hp but you can destroy the shield before it blows up (it has like 3 sec delay) and his R.... even his passive can be outplayed, during his passive he can't use flash, he has 1.5 sec delay before waking, sure it's unfun to be caught by sion (i think you want to mean this?) but at least you had the opportunity to not get caught, so you can not be frustrated because you will tell yourself that it's your fault, not the fact that you couldn't do anything, and not being able to do anything is the definition of anti-fun for riot. that's why they removed every point and click spells in the game (except few ofc)

unlike TahmKench , his free zhonya on allies that nullify your cooldown without you being able to do anything, Bard can do this but his ulti takes time to give a zhonya.

Malicious Metal22 votes

Anti-fun=/=Counterplay

Don't get me wrong here, I actually enjoy playing against sion but look at it this way; Sion can stunlock an entire team for about 5+ seconds, which for most squishies isn't really a fun situation to be in. Him becoming an impenetrable brick wall late game no one without %HP shred can take down can cause frustration for some players.

But compared to someone like Rengar or Zed his levels of "anti-fun" are abysmally low.

Best princess EU28 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQwa8hLc,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2016-01-04T11:14:11.537+0000)

Anti-fun=/=Counterplay

Don't get me wrong here, I actually enjoy playing against sion but look at it this way; Sion can stunlock an entire team for about 5+ seconds, which for most squishies isn't really a fun situation to be in. Him becoming an impenetrable brick wall late game no one without %HP shred can take down can cause frustration for some players.

But compared to someone like Rengar or Zed his levels of "anti-fun" are abysmally low.

if your ENTIR team got stun locked by sion, then it means that the sion outplayed you, he was better then your whole team and you played badly to be ultied by him+Q'ed.

what is op asking, isn't to have fun everytime, but to have the SLIGHT possibility to avoid sion stunlocking your team (which is already here). Rengar for example, There is no way currently to stop rengar from killing the carry, his ! makes nothing because he runes at 700 ms, his damage reaches 2000 or 2500, and he has a stealth.

if you die to rengar, it's not like dying to sion, dying to sion is like "i got outplayed this sion did good with his spells", dying against rengar is like "WHAT THE HELL I'M SUPPOSED TO DO"

hopeful47 votes

Rengar for example, There is no way currently to stop rengar from killing the carry

There are plenty of ways to stop him, which is why he sits at exactly 50% winrate.

dying against rengar is like "WHAT THE HELL I'M SUPPOSED TO DO"

Well getting good would be a nice start

xvastolorde13 votes

{quoted}

There are plenty of ways to stop him, which is why he sits at exactly 50% winrate.

Well getting good would be a nice start

he sits exactly at 50% winrate because he can only delete 1 guy out of the fight, then he is useless, and if he misses his combo he won't oneshot someone and will die, this all makes the champion balanced

but balanced doesn't mean that you don't want to break your computer because you died to him without being able to do anything.

but even better, what is getting good? how can you get good enough to play around rengar's ulti so you can have fun and not being out of the game for 1 min every 1 min?

you can stop feeding him, but this doesn't matter because the champion is badly designed, because if your mid lane fed him, you won't be able to stop him as an ADC.

KONO RUBICK DA19 votes

{quoted}

There are plenty of ways to stop him, which is why he sits at exactly 50% winrate.

** Well getting good would be a nice start**

i will tell gosu to do it, so he can stop getting oneshotted by rengar

hopeful45 votes

There are champions who are getting banned in high elo, Rengar isnt one of them. That should tell something, along with his total winrate, and what it should tell is to stop sucking and put your brain to work if you want to deal with Rengar.

KONO RUBICK DA16 votes

{quoted}

There are champions who are getting banned in high elo, Rengar isnt one of them. That should tell something, along with his total winrate, and what it should tell is to stop sucking and put your brain to work if you want to deal with Rengar.

shut the fuck up about balance, none care here it's just about anti-fun. If gosu isn't managing to not getting oneshot that means anyone even in diamond can't manage to do it, and that means that rengar is toxic because you will die non-stop to him.

hopeful45 votes

He said that theres no way to stop Rengar from one shotting you moron and thats a balance issue.

If gosu isn't managing to not getting oneshot

Ive seen plenty of times gosu getting away from Rengar. Occassionally getting one shotted is a part of the game and part of Rengar, a champ who relies on snowballing.

and that means that rengar is toxic because you will die non-stop to him.

No that means that you suck and cant figure how to avoid dying to Rengar

Best princess EU20 votes

{quoted}

He said that theres no way to stop Rengar from one shotting you moron and thats a balance issue.

Ive seen plenty of times gosu getting away from Rengar. Occassionally getting one shotted is a part of the game and part of Rengar, a champ who relies on snowballing.

No that means that you suck and cant figure how to avoid dying to Rengar

you main rengar, get the fuck out of this thread, there is no way to avoid dying to rengar except playing Malphite

Knoyle3 votes

Won't just about any tank do the trick? I'm just asking.

Apocyliptic3 votes

That's how Rengar's designed, ya genius. That's his ROLE, to oneshot carries. It's not that hard to understand, and since he's so good at that role, he has terrible teamfight, bad waveclear unless he's split pushing, and a weak early game.

Gosu get's oneshot because he plays ADC, which, wow, believe it or not, is Rengars ONLY job. More importantly, the only way he'd get oneshot if he's out of position or all his teams cc has been blown in a teamfight and Rengar is in the really late game or just fed.

I have never been oneshot by a Rengar and thought, "Wow no counterplay." You look at his kind of counterplay the wrong way, which is to never go into a jungle when you don't know where he is on the map, and not to be overextended in bot or top without someone there to protect you.

Ionian3 votes

That is true, I really enjoy playing Ahri yet I admit a good Ahri player is extremely unfun to play against because he will neeeeeever die.

Best princess EU8 votes

[{quoted}](name=If Ahri Was Real,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQwa8hLc,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2016-01-04T12:22:58.101+0000)

That is true, I really enjoy playing Ahri yet I admit a good Ahri player is extremely unfun to play against because he will neeeeeever die.

so Ahri won't die, how is this preventing you from doing your job?

Ionian1 votes

If your job is to assassinate the carries, you're gonna have a bad time.

Got New Glasses5 votes

[{quoted}](name=If Ahri Was Real,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQwa8hLc,comment-id=0003000100000000,timestamp=2016-01-04T13:45:12.462+0000)

If your job is to assassinate the carries, you're gonna have a bad time.

ahri's whole kit has skillshots so you can do something against here unlike when she had dfg. But ahri not being able to die is a different story, it has nothing to do with anti-fun because she has to use her jumps to kill a carry she won't jump infinitly like old Kassadin , and she has a 0.75 sec delay between her Rs so you can react and cc here. i call that counterplay.

Only Play Darius8 votes

I don't know man, I have yet to feel like Orianna has ever sucked the fun out of a game for me. I have never felt like Sona ruined my game whenever I had to play against her.

Zed was a bit oppressive early S5 but otherwise I don't mind facing him, I find there are plenty of opportunities when fighting him.

Zane Zephyr18 votes

Can't say "anti-fun" without throwing Annie, Cho'Gath, Blitzcrank, Heimerdinger, and Tryndamere into the mix

Edit: Honorable mentions to Leblanc, Veigar, and Fiora

Shadow Savage5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zane Zephyr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQwa8hLc,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-01-04T10:46:25.318+0000)

Can't say "anti-fun" without throwing Annie, Cho'Gath, Blitzcrank, Heimerdinger, and Tryndamere into the mix

Edit: Honorable mentions to Leblanc, Veigar, and Fiora

Cho is a nightmare. Passive heal way too strong, ult damage to champions WAY too strong, amount of health gained per stack way too strong

1000angrybees4 votes

I literally do not understand why ANYONE thinks that true damage scaling with an unbelievable ratio of 70% of his AP is balanced.

Not to mention the base on it is ridiculous. 300/475/650? This is some shit right here.

He's outdated as shit. He needs a visual overhaul like I need money to get out of debt from college.

weeaboomer5 votes

And why is vayne cancer?

ACENOX19 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobi Only Sways,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQwa8hLc,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-01-04T11:03:05.436+0000)

And why is vayne cancer?

because she has a darius ulti every 3 attacks , and you have no way to counter it except maybe "don't be attacked" ?

weeaboomer1 votes

{quoted}

because she has a darius ulti every 3 attacks , and you have no way to counter it except maybe "don't be attacked" ?

and if she didn't, then what?

doublelift fg13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobi Only Sways,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQwa8hLc,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2016-01-04T11:09:14.018+0000)

and if she didn't, then what?

the problem i think, is that if she has a much threatening strength, you should at least be able to prevent her in a way to destroy you.

but Vayne kit makes it difficult, her condemn, her stealth, her movespeed and Q makes her being able to unleash a lot of true damage while moving and still having a joker against assassins (condemn). i'm surprised that riot didn't realise it yet, they must have forgotten about anti-fun since a lot of time.

weeaboomer2 votes

[{quoted}](name=doublelift fg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQwa8hLc,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-04T11:13:52.845+0000)

the problem i think, is that if she has a much threatening strength, you should at least be able to prevent her in a way to destroy you.

but Vayne kit makes it difficult, her condemn, her stealth, her movespeed and Q makes her being able to unleash a lot of true damage while moving and still having a joker against assassins (condemn). i'm surprised that riot didn't realise it yet, they must have forget about anti-fun since a lot of time.

That anti fun w is still only single target and only in 3 autos. I like her kit, why? because it's different than other adcs. She's someone that can potentially out duel anyone, even assassins instead of bending over like almost every other adc. A single target ranged assassin right? What would make vayne "balanced?" being boring and weak like urgot?

KONO RUBICK DA8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobi Only Sways,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQwa8hLc,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-04T11:19:04.147+0000)

That anti fun w is still only single target and only in 3 autos. I like her kit, why? because it's different than other adcs. She's someone that can potentially out duel anyone, even assassins instead of bending over like almost every other adc. A single target ranged assassin right? What would make vayne "balanced?" being boring and weak like urgot?

anti-fun =/= balanced, vayne may be balanced because it's single target and 3 auto or whatever and that's an other thread, but doublelift fg is right, if you are against vayne as olaf for example it's rough and chances that you will be able to do nothing are high.

Lord Boltrix12 votes

The actual issue is how readily accessible the true damage is.

All Vayne has to do to get her true damage is to attack you three times once she has a level in Silver Bolt to proc the effect, no adjustment to her strategy at all in order to get the damage.

Compare that to Fiora, who - while annoying in her own right - also has access to % hp true damage, but is melee and has to hit a certain part of your body to do that unless she uses her ultimate. Simply being conscious of where your champion's body is facing in relation to Fiora directly creates counterplay by just being able to move around and avoid exposing that area to her. If Fiora wants to land those true damage strikes, she has to play the minigame with you in getting to those vitals.

I'd have to say while % hp true damage is not the most healthy mechanic, it's comparatively far more healthy on Fiora, where even if Fiora is in auto-attack range she still has to hit the vital area, versus Vayne who doesn't have to think at all about the Silver Bolt procs.

Only Play Darius2 votes

Well said. Fiora's true damage is much heavier than Vayne's but it is far more fair to play against

I would go as far to say it's the same with Garen too

Ralanr4 votes

Garen I feel is fair in his true damage since it only effects on target (and it's funny to see the support as the villain sometimes).

Olaf has probably the fairest use of true damage in the game though.

HayRoss5 votes

Garen's %max hp true damage is (In my opinion) the lightest of them all.

What does Vayne have to do for %10 max HP true damage? 3 auto attacks

What does Fiora have to do for %10 max HP true damage? 1 auto attack from a random direction

What does Garen have to do for %10 max HP true damage? Barrel through 4 other people while trying to lay the smack down on their fed carry, and is probably not going to work unless somehow none of those people ward that bush you're standing in, not to mention you can only get that %10 bonus every 10 seconds

Only Play Darius9 votes

Because she is near impossible to deal with as a melee without something ludicrous like Nasus wither or Yi highlander.

Her damage is also 100% unavoidable and partly uncounterable. Nerfs to thornmail also made life harder when dealing with her.

Itadaki Seieki3 votes

Kalista is fine. She's getting a nerf next patch that'll make her be more careful about farming with Rend.

Vayne is so easy to counter if you just dominate her early laning phase problems and deny her any late game items.

D357R0Y3R15 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bard to Master,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQwa8hLc,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-01-04T11:49:04.472+0000)

Kalista is fine. She's getting a nerf next patch that'll make her be more careful about farming with Rend.

Vayne is so easy to counter if you just dominate her early laning phase problems and deny her any late game items.

you're in the wrong thread, this thread is talking about anti-fun, not balance

Itadaki Seieki1 votes

Yeah but those two things are what makes the champion not fun.

Vayne hyperscaling isn't fun, nor is the fact Kalista gets mana back for Eing a wave and her insane mobility.

Balance can also mean anti-fun.

KONO RUBICK DA7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bard to Master,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQwa8hLc,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2016-01-04T14:36:08.054+0000)

Yeah but those two things are what makes the champion not fun.

Vayne hyperscaling isn't fun, nor is the fact Kalista gets mana back for Eing a wave and her insane mobility.

Balance can also mean anti-fun.

it's not that vayne hyperscaling isn't fun old kog had a good scaling still wasn't unfun, it is the fact that you can't duel here while and ADC should be shit in duel and good in fight by carrying his team. it's also the fact that you can't dodge her damage, but you can't also fight back (as a melee) You can't also as a range choose to not fight because of her passive+ulti+pd+boot.

ofart2 votes

Lee Sin is 100% fine. I'm not sure about the others but "anti-fun" sounds weird to me.

KONO RUBICK DA26 votes

{quoted}

Lee Sin is 100% fine. I'm not sure about the others but "anti-fun" sounds weird to me.

anti-fun is a design philosophy created by riot and zileas told that it was a design of a champion that didn't allowed the enemies to do their job without them being able to prevent you from preventing them from doing their job

Matezoide25 votes

So every CertainlyT champion ever?

Ahristocats13 votes

{quoted}

So every CertainlyT champion ever?

Thresh techincally isn't anti-fun, none of his spells forces you to be anything or to do anything in 100% of the time. His lantern may be anti-fun because you have no way to prevent his allies from going out, they should make the hitbox bigger to make it easier to stand on the lantern. Zyra is just a normal mage, and Darius has now a lot of way to win against him, his Q can be countered by going into him, his attack speed makes duelist great against him.

but yea, Yasuo Kalista , yasuo's windwall can not be countered in the begining, if you fight a yasuo and he windwall when you throw a projectile you could do nothing, they should put a delay on his wall

XIII Vanitas7 votes

Windwall with a delay would be shit, it's meant to be used reactively.

JAGMAG11 votes

that's the problem thou every 20 seconds or so yasuo gets to delete an ability from a game for free including most ultimate abilities make it more about skill less about speed typing test

Best princess EU1 votes

{quoted}

that's the problem thou every 20 seconds or so yasuo gets to delete an ability from a game for free including most ultimate abilities make it more about skill less about speed typing test

the counterplay was "walk though the wall" but it's a disaster counterplay, because if his wall is up then you will be forced to do anything because he will wall your spells.

you're Ahri against him, then you can do nothing because if you Q or E he will windwall and there is nothing you can do about it just wait he uses windwall on a team mate spell.

JAGMAG9 votes

not to mention if you "walk threw the wall" to cast spells you are going melee range with a full damage yasuo who btw can q you before you are even threw the wall.

so really all you can do is sit back sadly and cri

Ariel the Cruel6 votes

Or: you walk through the wall, and he pats you on the shoulder while walking the other way. You're now melee range and still obstructed by the damn wall.

Or he just says "fuck it", and plants his ass inside the thing, since it has a bigger hit-box than him.

xvastolorde5 votes

{quoted}

anti-fun is a design philosophy created by riot and zileas told that it was a design of a champion that didn't allowed the enemies to do their job without them being able to prevent you from preventing them from doing their job

good thing that this post is on the top of the thread, so people can read what is truly anti-fun

The Deckowner2 votes

idk why no one mentioned tryndamere.

Only Play Darius11 votes

Because Tryndamere is an ancient champion and based on the creator of the game so will never get another rework.

His incredibly bullshit kit is preserved as a testament to how far champion design has come and will remain unchanged

The Deckowner1 votes

champions with immunization abilities without any kind of counter play is toxic and needs some sort of change.

for example rip old poppy 2015.

any champions who are considered "broken" by many people right now arent as broken as these real broken champions.

if a player is all faker gosu like and did all the god like mechanic, and is facing a dog who only knows how to press r button, those mechanics and plays doesnt really matter since there is no counterplay avaliable.

DorkunedAuras5 votes

Poppy was toxic

Trynd can be CCed while he's ulting, negating his opportunities to do shit.

Poppy went "lol your everything, too bad I'm killing your adc, and there's fuck all you can do about it unless you're tahm or thresh"

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