Counterplay to Zhonyas

Blue Shift·Oct 21, 2019·9 votes·2,447 views

I think everyone knows that Zhonyas is a very strong item and quite annoying to verse and I would like to see some more counterplay slowly be added into the game to mimic power creep.

Right now Zhonyas doesn't have a counterplay, and having an item that completely ruins a champion kit is quite toxic to the game. (Zed, Rengar, Pyke, etc...)

Example 1: Target an enemy champion, this champion can no longer use actives for the next 3 seconds.

Example 2: Target enemy champion, pull this champion out of stasis (zhonya cooldown reduced by half)

It doesn't have to be these examples, pretty much anything would work, I would just like to see some counterplay to the item, so it feels more fun to verse.

29 Comments

Hawthorn TreeOct 21, 20196 votes

The general consensus on this Board is that all assassin-type champions should be removed from the game. Don't bother trying to point out that champions like Xerath Lux get to abuse the very same defensive item that was meant to enable champions like Fiddlesticks Morgana , who need to 1v5 dive to function. Nobody will hear you.

DalekZecOct 21, 20195 votes

Are you a Zed main?

I'm sorry but this is just poor. "There's too little counterplay to Zhonya!"

Maybe you don't know but allow me to educate you:

Zhonya relies heavily and I mean HEAVILY on your positioning. Using it recklessly is just delaying your death.
Even during teamfights or other scenarios, Zhonya's effect makes a sound that helps you time your abilities. That ding noise it does in stasis and when it nears its end, you'll know when to strike.
Zhonya's cooldown is very long. Most champions can cast their ultimates like 3 times tops before Zhonya can be used again.
Zhonya may be a defensive item, but it doesn't add power to the champion. A champ with Zhonya only is not all threatening. Just has the capability to survive longer. There's a difference.
Zhonya can't be activated while cc-ed.

You saying there needs to be more counters will just make Zhonya pointless to buy. An item that disables champs from using items? That's gonna be abused 100% even by those that don't need it. An item that can remove stasis? I'm sorry but that's dumb. Zhonya may be a strong item. But it's NOT broken. If this is the case, then Guardian Angel, Duskblade, Sterak's and other items should have "more counterplay".

The weaknesses are so obvious and easy to exploit yet you're here like, "Zhonya needs more counterplay!"??

Blue ShiftOct 21, 20195 votes

Did I upset you or something?

I don't main Zed, he's actually one of my least played played assassins in the game. I play Rengar a little, but I believe he is the most or very close to the most broken assassin in the game. (remove his w healing entirely and nerf his passive range)

Zhonyas is an anti assassin item because it gives 45 armor, not just the active, which for years people have been asking to have it removed because it's just unhealthy to the game. There is a reason stopwatch is being removed and why the rune was insanely abused, being nicknamed "league of stopwatch".

Zhonyas doesn't require good positioning and it actually does the opposite by giving a free get out of jail free card in most scenarios. If you get caught out, you should be punished for it, and many times Zhonyas will actually give players a free get away despite misplaying.

You don't need to use the audio cue. I play with sound muted every game. If you aren't good at timings, then you can always just click on the enemy and it will show the stasis debuff on them, which is the Zhonyas timer.

Zhonyas cooldown is not very long at all, being at only 2 minutes. Guardian angel is 5 minutes. This doesn't even include the very strong domination rune that lowers active item cooldowns, which for a champion like Veigar, Zilean, etc... can be very easily abused with the incredibly overpowered glacial augment.

Your point about zhonyas without the active being very weak is just not true in the slightest and there is not even a point trying to explain why because it should be very obvious.

Zhonyas not being able to be activated while being cc'd means nothing because almost every champion that builds it isn't a frontline champion or even a backline champion that would get hit with cc.

Not only all of the above, but it has one of the best build paths in the entire game.

DalekZecOct 21, 20191 votes

Did I upset you or something?

I don't know where you got the idea but no. I've seen worse statements than yours really.

I don't main Zed, he's actually one of my least played played assassins in the game. I play Rengar a little, but I believe he is the most or very close to the most broken assassin in the game. (remove his w healing entirely and nerf his passive range)

Good to know.

Zhonyas is an anti assassin item because it gives 45 armor, not just the active, which for years people have been asking to have it removed because it's just unhealthy to the game. There is a reason stopwatch is being removed and why the rune was insanely abused, being nicknamed "league of stopwatch".

Unhealthy? In what way? Being an item that's literally defensive? Unless it deals some magic aoe damage while in stasis then your point is valid (which is not btw). If Zhonya gets removed, then how the can those who play immobile mages be able to deal with Assassins? This will just make assassins with much less counterplay to begin with. And stop watch rune and Zhonya aren't the same. I don't even use that rune to begin with.

Zhonyas doesn't require good positioning and it actually does the opposite by giving a free get out of jail free card in most scenarios. If you get caught out, you should be punished for it, and many times Zhonyas will actually give players a free get away despite misplaying.

Oh the classic argument of this shit. Last time i heard was it was called an "oopsie item". Zhonya DOES require good positioning. Imagine using it while surrounded by enemy champs with no back up. "Zhonya doesn't require good positioning". Seriously, did you think before you speak?

You don't need to use the audio cue. I play with sound muted every game. If you aren't good at timings, then you can always just click on the enemy and it will show the stasis debuff on them, which is the Zhonyas timer.

That's your case. Not mine or in general the entire playerbase.

Zhonyas cooldown is not very long at all, being at only 2 minutes. Guardian angel is 5 minutes. This doesn't even include the very strong domination rune that lowers active item cooldowns, which for a champion like Veigar, Zilean, etc... can be very easily abused with the incredibly overpowered glacial augment.

Zhonya and Guardian Angel may be strong, but both are fair in their own way. Zhonya doesn't heal you. If you use it with 10% hp remaining, you'll return with the same amount of hp. Guardian requires you to die and you come back with 3/4 hp remaining. Imagine Guardian Angel in a 2 minute mark. And it's an AD item ffs.

Your point about zhonyas without the active being very weak is just not true in the slightest and there is not even a point trying to explain why because it should be very obvious.

Zhonya doesn't make a mage dangerous af. It doesn't give enough AP for a mage to be hurting. What's more threatening? A mage with Zhonya only? or a Mage with Luden's and a deathcap?

Zhonyas not being able to be activated while being cc'd means nothing because almost every champion that builds it isn't a frontline champion or even a backline champion that would get hit with cc.

Well no shit, you expect everybody to go yolo mode like a tank? What? Is playing smart and strategic a reportable offense now?

Not only all of the above, but it has one of the best build paths in the entire game.

What i can tell you for sure is your path of thought is very bad. Remove Zhonya from the game, fine. Then what can an immobile mage build in terms of defensive? Banshee's veil will obviously not help. You're just indirectly asking for the gutting of a class. Here's a fun fact: You know why i don't complain about Zhonya? No, not because i use it. In fact I don't even build it. It's because I KNOW how to counter it. How? You time your abilities, play smart, bait it out, etc. You're all "this item is a 1 press of a button!" well guess what...literally everything is a press of a button away. Including champion abilities.

Blue ShiftOct 21, 20191 votes

"Did I upset you or something?":

I don't know where you got the idea but no. I've seen worse statements than yours really.

I'm sorry but this is just poor. "There's too little counterplay to Zhonya!"

Maybe you don't know but allow me to educate you:

An item that can remove stasis? I'm sorry but that's dumb.

The weaknesses are so obvious and easy to exploit yet you're here like, "Zhonya needs more counterplay!"??

Oh the classic argument of this shit. Last time i heard was it was called an "oopsie item".

"Zhonya doesn't require good positioning". Seriously, did you think before you speak?

Well no shit, you expect everybody to go yolo mode like a tank? What? Is playing smart and strategic a reportable offense now?

What i can tell you for sure is your path of thought is very bad.

You're just indirectly asking for the gutting of a class.

Here's a fun fact: You know why i don't complain about Zhonya? No, not because i use it. In fact I don't even build it. It's because I KNOW how to counter it.

?

If Zhonya gets removed, then how the can those who play immobile mages be able to deal with Assassins?

Their hard CC abilities.

And stop watch rune and Zhonya aren't the same.

What does this even mean?

Zhonya DOES require good positioning. Imagine using it while surrounded by enemy champs with no back up. "Zhonya doesn't require good positioning". Seriously, did you think before you speak?

Like I said before, if you somehow manage to get caught out and surrounded by enemy champs with no back up as a squishy, you should probably die for misplaying. It's the same for if you are an assassin, support, adc, etc...

That's your case. Not mine or in general the entire playerbase.

What does this even mean? This doesn't make sense.

Zhonya doesn't heal you. If you use it with 10% hp remaining, you'll return with the same amount of hp

If you click Zhonya AFTER an assassin uses their burst, you should probably be punished for misplaying.

Zhonya doesn't make a mage dangerous af. It doesn't give enough AP for a mage to be hurting. What's more threatening? A mage with Zhonya only? or a Mage with Luden's and a deathcap?

I am pretty sure the Mage with 2 items, being both offensive, high gold cost, and not having any defensive stats at all will do more damage than a Mage with 1 item. With the 2 items you have no survivability, and if there is an assassin in the game, you will be one shot very easily as well.

Well no shit, you expect everybody to go yolo mode like a tank? What? Is playing smart and strategic a reportable offense now?

You proved my point, so I have no need to respond.

Remove Zhonya from the game, fine. Then what can an immobile mage build in terms of defensive?

I don't think I said remove Zhonyas from the game, but i'll humor it: Add more defensive items for mages that aren't isn't just health like protobelt, liandrys, rylais, rod of ages, etc...

Here's a fun fact: You know why i don't complain about Zhonya? No, not because i use it. In fact I don't even build it. It's because I KNOW how to counter it.

You logged into a level 10 account which obviously isn't your main account on purpose to hide either the your rank or the fact that you were perma banned so I have no way to tell what you main, your average elo, etc...

How? You time your abilities, play smart, bait it out, etc.

You can't time it abilities because Zhonyas is instantaneous. Can you perhaps elaborate on how to bait out a zhonyas as a Kha zix, Diana, Zed, Twitch, Kayn, Katarina, or Akali?

DalekZecOct 21, 20191 votes

?

Wow, it means i'm so upset! Spare me.

Their hard CC abilities.

Not valid.

What does this even mean?

It means 1+1= 3 A rune is where you'll get automatically. An item is where you buy it. Why waste a rune space on a stopwatch while you can get an extra bonus like future marketing or something all the while buying Zhonya in the process?

Like I said before, if you somehow manage to get caught out and surrounded by enemy champs with no back up as a squishy, you should probably die for misplaying. It's the same for if you are an assassin, support, adc, etc...

Yeah and using Zhonya while that happens is even more punishing. Your point? There are champions like Zed, Akali, and even Kayn who have forgiving kits if they misplay. Yay! Double standards! My favorite snack!

What does this even mean? This doesn't make sense.

It means 99% of the playerbase play with the sound on but you don't.

If you click Zhonya AFTER an assassin uses their burst, you should probably be punished for misplaying.

Oh so escapes or surviving shouldn't be allowed? Okay great. I'll keep that in mind. If someone manages to escape, I'll be sure to report them for cheating.

I am pretty sure the Mage with 2 items, being both offensive, high gold cost, and not having any defensive stats at all will do more damage than a Mage with 1 item. With the 2 items you have no survivability, and if there is an assassin in the game, you will be one shot very easily as well.

Yeah and water is wet. Ever heard of glass cannon?

You proved my point, so I have no need to respond.

So playing smart and strategic is reportable offense. Got it.

I don't think I said remove Zhonyas from the game, but i'll humor it: Add more defensive items for mages that aren't isn't just health like protobelt, liandrys, rylais, rod of ages, etc...

Adding "more counterplay" with shit like something that silences the enemy from using an active or a new mechanic that rips you out of stasis already means "remove zhonya" to me. Do you have any idea how such mechanics will be abused? Buying Zhonya will be pointless and a troll build.

You logged into a level 10 account which obviously isn't your main account on purpose to hide either the your rank or the fact that you were perma banned so I have no way to tell what you main, your average elo, etc...

1- No, my main account got perma banned for calling certainlyt a cheap reincarnation of Robin Williams and for him to be fired. 2- Elo shaming? How low are you with this? 3- King Lego (EUNE) 4- Elo doesn't mean shit.

You can't time it abilities because Zhonyas is instantaneous. Can you perhaps elaborate on how to bait out a zhonyas as a Kha zix, Diana, Zed, Twitch, Kayn, Katarina, or Akali?

Yes you can time...depending on the champion. Let's say Vel'Koz. When an enemy uses Zhonya, I aim my Q and wait for a bit and then fire it. Once the stasis from Zhonya ends, the Q hits the enemy right away. THAT'S timing your ability. Those champs? Their cooldowns are super low to begin with anyway. Hmm let's see...you don't use your ultimate if the enemy has a Zhonya at the ready? Zed, Kayn, Katarina? Like come on... A Twitch doesn't need anything. Just right click and finish. Diana's ulti is superlow cuz it relies on landing her Q. Kha'Zix can do extra damage due to his Q passive, difficult to escape due to his ulti (movement speed and E) and his Q cooldown is low. Those champs are strong in a 1v1 situation. Literally, just play smart, and get the enemy low enough to the point that they'll be forced to Zhonya and then finish them off. Usually when i play Vel'Koz i never use my ultimate unless i know the zhonya is on cooldown. Although i have to land all QWE and double passive proc to force a Zhonya out. Usually, it works best when you have back up, in order to bait an enemy Zhonya.

Blue ShiftOct 22, 20191 votes

This is by far the dumbest shit i've ever read on the internet. Please don't become a game designer or an influential figure in your life.

DalekZecOct 22, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Shift,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQ2drbWJ,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-22T12:26:15.756+0000)

This is by far the dumbest shit i've ever read on the internet. Please don't become a game designer or an influential figure in your life.

Oh no! My hopes and dreams are crushed!

HEEEE HELA HELA HOOOO!

PhearBunnyOct 21, 20195 votes

As a Nocturne OTP, i hate Zhonyas, GA, and any anti-assassin item in the game.... but assassins would be overpowered if Zhonyas and GA didnt exist. We have free-reign for the first half of the game. After that, they finish their stopwatch items, and we have to actually think about what we do.

R0ses R RedOct 21, 20194 votes

Zhonya's was literally created to shut down the types of characters you mentioned. That's its primary purpose and is why it offers armor.

Blue ShiftOct 21, 20194 votes

Poor mage defensive itemization with armor is a problem and I won't deny that. For some reason almost all mage items give health. I think if they started removing all the health stats on items like morellos, liandrys, rylais, etc... and started giving actual defensive options, we could go from there, but as it is right now, Zhonyas is incredibly broken with no counterplay to it for assassins.

PhearBunnyOct 21, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Shift,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQ2drbWJ,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-10-21T13:37:04.543+0000)

Poor mage defensive itemization with armor is a problem and I won't deny that. For some reason almost all mage items give health. I think if they started removing all the health stats on items like morellos, liandrys, rylais, etc... and started giving actual defensive options, we could go from there, but as it is right now, Zhonyas is incredibly broken with no counterplay to it for assassins.

The counterplay to Zhonyas is that Zhonyas is the only thing keeping you alive in the first place. As soon as you use it, youre a sitting duck with no way to defend yourself. All Zhonyas does, is force Assassins to be more reserved when they go in to delete a target. *is it worth it to burst Xerath and force his Zhonyas while he has 2 friends nearby?" -probably not. Youre prob gonna die for nothing but a Zhonyas cooldown. is it worth it to pop Xeraths Zhonyas mid teamfight where he is ulting from the back, and is going to be isolated for atleast 2seconds? -yes. You stop Xerath from being artillery, You force him to use the only CD keeping him alive, and you force the rest of the enemy team to peel back to his aid, while u just slip away. All Zhonyas does is prevent you from going in and doing whatever you want, and getting a kill even when you made a incredibly stupid/greedy play. Which is something assassins are notorious for getting away with before the completion of Zhonyas/GA/PD.

If youre against Zhonyas because it has "no counterplay". Why arent you against assassins diving in to 1v4 scenarios, getting a kill, and then getting away? That is the epitome of no counterplay.

Blue ShiftOct 21, 20194 votes

First off, Is this a typo?

The counterplay to Zhonyas is that Zhonyas is the only thing keeping you alive in the first place.

For the rest,

You can make an argument for almost everything to try and and make a broken item sound fair. For example:

+65 damage +18 lethality 10% cdr Active: Champion becomes untargetable and invulnerable, reverting back to where they were 5 seconds ago.

The counterplay to this is that almost every Mage in the game has hard CC, which they can easily used on an assassin to lock them down if they dive in for an easy kill because of how squishy assassins are. Mages need to be more careful about how they use their hard CC. "Is it worth using my hard CC on this bruiser when there is an assassin in the game and we can't see them?" -probably not. You're prob gonna die for wasting your hard CC.

The Xerath example is such a horrible example. In almost every teamfight, Xerath isn't just going to sit there away from everyone else and hide. He is going to be with his team and fighting. Even if he decides to ult, knowing there is an assassin that is hidden, and his entire enemy team ditches him, an assassin being able to easily kill him should be normal. This is only one champion in the game as well. What is an assassin's job if they can't even kill a squishy?

All Zhonyas does is prevent you from going in and doing whatever you want, and getting a kill even when you made a incredibly stupid/greedy play.

Which assassin in the game can jump in, get a kill, and just get out?

I can't think of any assassin that can dive in, be able to one shot someone, and get away.

Maybe Zed?

Even if this is true; a zed main would need to let me know, I don't think an item should be added to the game just because one champion exists. If an assassin is able to do this, their kits should be reevaluated and changed because it would be too strong.

PhearBunnyOct 21, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Shift,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fQ2drbWJ,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-21T14:35:49.602+0000)

First off, Is this a typo?

For the rest,

You can make an argument for almost everything to try and and make a broken item sound fair. For example:

+65 damage +18 lethality 10% cdr Active: Champion becomes untargetable and invulnerable, reverting back to where they were 5 seconds ago.

The counterplay to this is that almost every Mage in the game has hard CC, which they can easily used on an assassin to lock them down if they dive in for an easy kill because of how squishy assassins are. Mages need to be more careful about how they use their hard CC. "Is it worth using my hard CC on this bruiser when there is an assassin in the game and we can't see them?" -probably not. You're prob gonna die for wasting your hard CC.

The Xerath example is such a horrible example. In almost every teamfight, Xerath isn't just going to sit there away from everyone else and hide. He is going to be with his team and fighting. Even if he decides to ult, knowing there is an assassin that is hidden, and his entire enemy team ditches him, an assassin being able to easily kill him should be normal. This is only one champion in the game as well. What is an assassin's job if they can't even kill a squishy?

Which assassin in the game can jump in, get a kill, and just get out?

I can't think of any assassin that can dive in, be able to one shot someone, and get away.

Maybe Zed?

Even if this is true; a zed main would need to let me know, I don't think an item should be added to the game just because one champion exists. If an assassin is able to do this, their kits should be reevaluated and changed because it would be too strong.

Zed, Talon, Akali, LB to a lesser extent, Qiyana, Nocturne(atleast trade 1 for 1 even off of a stupid play that shouldnt reward a kill), Khazix, and so on.

Blue ShiftOct 21, 20191 votes

The only one of that entire list is Leblanc, who is more of a mage than an assassin.

ROYALR3IGNOct 22, 20191 votes

Which assassin in the game can jump in, get a kill, and just get out?

I can't think of any assassin that can dive in, be able to one shot someone, and get away.

Maybe Zed?

Even if this is true; a zed main would need to let me know, I don't think an item should be added to the game just because one champion exists. If an assassin is able to do this, their kits should be reevaluated and changed because it would be too strong.

Wait which assassin can't do this last bit??? Talon can wall hop/ult away, Ekko can ult, Zed can teleport to 2 different shadows, don't get me started on LB, Khazix can reset his jump with a kill, but also has invisibility, eve is perma invisible AND can ult away, MAYBE Fizz is the only one that can't really do this without giving up huge damage.

Blue ShiftOct 23, 20191 votes

It's only if you get quite fed that you can just jump into a group and get a kill, and even then, many champions have counters and can build to counter the assassin to stop them from doing so quite easily.

Your point about Evelynn is true though, I think she deserves a nerf/change.

Also, Ekko isn't an assassin.

dropperombraNov 4, 20191 votes

Rengar, Zed, Akali, Talon, Katarina, Ekko, Fizz, Qiyana, Elise, Leblanc, Pyke, Khazix.

Surely I missed a few but those are some of the champs I can think of off the top that can easily 1 shot champs and then "just get out". Rengar being the easiest imo since his combo requires the least skill to use, again imo, and the fact he has removal of cc, speed boost, burst heal, builds items that both give him further speed and cc shield in ghostblade n edge of night...In some cases he doesn't even require the use of his ult to initiate his 1 shotting, depending on the positioning of himself and his target. When he doesn't have to ult to do so, he can simply use that as a means of escape since it makes him invisible and 2x faster than everyone else.

I do think some of their kits should be tuned down some since the majority of them overkill their targets and can escape too easily...but at the same time they ARE assassins and if they can't 1 shot enemies then what is the point of them. Riot wants this to be the case because it makes bad players feel strong/good. Gives the player an ego boost and makes them feel powerful knowing they destroyed an enemy by pushing a couple buttons and it keeps them coming back.

KFCeytronOct 21, 20193 votes

It can't be used while stunned.

EedatOct 21, 20193 votes

Wait for it to end. It's not like they're going anywhere

Blue ShiftOct 21, 20193 votes

Are you serious? I genuinely can't tell if it's a meme or not.

The thigh guyOct 21, 20193 votes

Zhonya’s only seems super strong because it’s 1 of 2 defensive items in the game that actually works anymore.

Blue ShiftOct 21, 20193 votes

We've known this for such a long time though, Riot are just r%%%%%ed and won't introduce new items for some reason. This should not be a reason for Zhonyas to be intentionally overpowered.