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Would it be better to make Ryze a spell-based juggernaut?

Blue Shift··42 votes·12,968 views

I believe a lot of the champion balance issues in the game can be fixed by simply deciding what class the champion should be.

Riot has tried this before, "Dev Blog: Classes & Subclasses, but the probem is that I don't think it's anywhere near complete. For example "Marksmen" is not a subclass, proper subclasses would be spell based champs like ezreal and auto attackers like jinx.

With this in Mind what would we classify Ryze as?

Ryze has been a problem for many years now and I think a good solution would be moving him away from the burst mage style he has now of short cooldown high burst while being squishy, and moving him more towards being a spell based juggernaut. The current list of juggernauts are Aatrox Mordekaiser Garen Darius Nasus Illaoi DrMundo Urgot Shyvana Trundle Udyr Volibear Yorick

Now there a lot of possibilities to do this and many could work, but I think a good way to do it would be:

Lower attack range from 550 (Jhin, Lux, Elise ) to 450 (Vladimir , Thresh, Morgana), making him much less of a bully in lane and forcing him to be closer to farm.

E changed to be a skillshot, very similar to a Karthus or Urgot Q. For every ability that procks his E mark, he gains some spell vamp, helping him stay in fights longer the more he ramps up. It marks everyone in the small area, meaning if you hit multiple champions in something like an Orianna ult wombo, you will be fully stacked very fast. Only stacks on champions and large monsters.

Remove the mana scalings from his base abilities and make his spells cost much less mana, forcing him to still build mana if he wants to have sustain, but making it so he doesn't have to just build full mana builds to be able to use his abilities more than a few times. Change his ult completely, it currently has little to no synergy with his kit. Change his passive. Remove the reset mechanic on his Q and give it scaling cooldown (right now it is base 6 the entire game) Lower range of his abilities (Q currently has 1000 range, change to something like 600, W and E are 615 each, change to 350) (whatever works, just lower a lot), goes hand in hand with his auto range being lowered so he's not just picked as an annoying lane bully. Make his base stats better, a lot tankier so he can actually 1v1 other juggernauts if he lands his abilities and plays it well.

The allure of Ryze is his short cooldown spell spamming and the way they are trying to balance him now is an issue of feast or famine, which is not fun to play against or as and only creates more issues down the road with micro changes to try and band aid his feast or famine kit.

These changes don't have to be exact, but I think it moves in the right direction. What do you guys think?

38 Comments

AmWhaleIRL9 votes

It would be, but they won't. Especially after Meddler just barely touched on this ideal in his most recent Gameplay Thoughts. He brought up the idea of alienating mains of champs via reworks and tweaks. Basically saying they're gonna try to avoid it at all costs.

Z3SIeeper7 votes

Battle Mage (No CD's, DPS champ) ---or--- Burst Mage (Actual CD's, not as much DPS)

Pick one Riot

NodirjonSattarov2 votes

I mean he's not much of a battle mage anymore since they removed his spell vamp from old R and his shield. It was only until spell flux spread instantly when people realized he did damage, his damage was present even before and wasn't gated by his R.

IronyAndSublime2 votes

Well, Ryze's Q cooldown was normal before being a reset, but what made it work was the old passive that reduced cooldowns by one second per spell cast, so he could get the Q back up relatively fast. Riot wanted to push this as an ability that resets entirely, since they removed that passive. A suggestion would be to give him THAT passive...

Unfortunately, this causes the issues that the old ryze had. He had cooldowns but his R deleted cooldowns entirely.

I think the concept of Ryze being an old Archmage whose mastered the art of the arcane to the point of being able to use spells so frequently is an interesting one. I firmly believe it can work. However, the current balance team is executing this badly.

All these nerfs and changes should be reverted back to square one with 2016 Ryze. Here, the balance team should address the obvious strengths and weaknesses. The shield scaling should be reduced, so he can't spam the crap out of it and be immune to damage. His early game is really really bad, so buffing up the early game damage and harass would help him. But, it shouldn't be gigabuffed to the point where he can just outtrade you in the early game with only mana. His lategame is very VERY strong, and his high burst should be changed to scaling that would allow him to deal moderate damage, rather than instant deleting people. This way, he plays like a mage bruiser who can duel people and have effective damage that allows people he fights to be able to beat him without just dying instantly.

His passive should just be more mana gives more damage. More AP should NOT give him more mana. We don't want mana Vladimir

I think Ryze being a battlemage with MODERATE damage over BURST would be way more tolerable than an EQ spamming burst mage.

Trist mid opop1 votes

{quoted}

Well, Ryze's Q cooldown was normal before being a reset, but what made it work was the old passive that reduced cooldowns by one second per spell cast, so he could get the Q back up relatively fast. Riot wanted to push this as an ability that resets entirely, since they removed that passive. A suggestion would be to give him THAT passive...

Unfortunately, this causes the issues that the old ryze had. He had cooldowns but his R deleted cooldowns entirely.

I think the concept of Ryze being an old Archmage whose mastered the art of the arcane to the point of being able to use spells so frequently is an interesting one. I firmly believe it can work. However, the current balance team is executing this badly.

All these nerfs and changes should be reverted back to square one with 2016 Ryze. Here, the balance team should address the obvious strengths and weaknesses. The shield scaling should be reduced, so he can't spam the crap out of it and be immune to damage. His early game is really really bad, so buffing up the early game damage and harass would help him. But, it shouldn't be gigabuffed to the point where he can just outtrade you in the early game with only mana. His lategame is very VERY strong, and his high burst should be changed to scaling that would allow him to deal moderate damage, rather than instant deleting people. This way, he plays like a mage bruiser who can duel people and have effective damage that allows people he fights to be able to beat him without just dying instantly.

His passive should just be more mana gives more damage. More AP should NOT give him more mana. We don't want mana Vladimir

I think Ryze being a battlemage with MODERATE damage over BURST would be way more tolerable than an EQ spamming burst mage.

He doesnt have a shield anymore.

ZackTheWaffleMan2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Shift,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BzVXEohZ,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-11-20T13:10:39.441+0000) The current list of juggernauts are Aatrox Mordekaiser Garen Darius Nasus Illaoi DrMundo Urgot

Kled Trundle Skarner Udyr Yorick Volibear ?????

Predatorator1 votes

{quoted}

Kled Trundle Skarner Udyr Yorick Volibear ?????

skarner is something between a tank and a juggernaut, he's in a weird spot rn

Play from work1 votes

That's a Vanguard.

Probably the same category Sion fits into. They can go either offensive, or tanky but are actually tanky unlike Darius.

SpongebobIsLife10 votes

kled isnt considered a juggernaut, he is considered a skirmisher like fiora if im not mistaken, same with aatrox. Basically, if the champion has a low cd gap closer, its not a jug.

Crescent Dusk2 votes

{quoted}

kled isnt considered a juggernaut, he is considered a skirmisher like fiora if im not mistaken, same with aatrox. Basically, if the champion has a low cd gap closer, its not a jug.

Garen has a low cd gap closer technically, as does Urgot.

The simple fact is that a juggernaut is a tankier fighter who gives up less scaling defensive tools and hard CC pick potential in exchange for more damage.

You can even do a juggernaut test by grabbing that champion and taking him to mid lane against traditional assassins that are not Zed or Akali (zed's nature as an AD mage and akali also having plentiful ranged poke with engage denials make them the only assassins able to deal with tankier stat check juggernauts) and watching them stat check the living hell out of any melee assassin.

Kled, Aatrox will stomp even Yasuo or Diana via sheer stat check.

Romans VI XXIII10 votes

Garen has a low cd gap closer technically

LMFAO. Yes a 1.5s MS buff is a "gap closer" alright.

Crescent Dusk1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Romans VI XXIII,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BzVXEohZ,comment-id=0003000100000000,timestamp=2019-11-21T00:27:42.616+0000)

LMFAO. Yes a 1.5s MS buff is a "gap closer" alright.

Yeah? It's a MS steroid, by your terrible logic ghost is not a gap closer either given its cd and how it needs to ramp up, yet it most definitely is a gap closer.

Romans VI XXIII5 votes

There is a massive difference between a 1.5s MS buff and a 10s MS buff lol. Thats like comparing a 150 range dash to a 1000 dash lmfao.

Crescent Dusk1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Romans VI XXIII,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BzVXEohZ,comment-id=000300010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-21T01:20:57.802+0000)

There is a massive difference between a 1.5s MS buff and a 10s MS buff lol. Thats like comparing a 150 range dash to a 1000 dash lmfao.

Not when you're also taking into account initial velocity and the amount of distance covered in a short amount of time, where Garen's Q is superior to Ghost, especially when you also take into account Garen's Q removes slows whereas Ghost does not.

Romans VI XXIII7 votes

LMFAO idk what world you live in but Garen Q is NOT superior in getting to a target than Ghost is LOLOLOLOL

Crescent Dusk2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Romans VI XXIII,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BzVXEohZ,comment-id=00030001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-21T01:33:09.683+0000)

LMFAO idk what world you live in but Garen Q is NOT superior in getting to a target than Ghost is LOLOLOLOL

Not arguing with someone who speaks like a brat, goodbye.

PB4UAME1 votes

Urgot has only his E which is on a massive 16 second cooldown. Garen doesn't even have a gap closer. What the actual fuck are you talkign about?

Vlada Cut1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BzVXEohZ,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2019-11-20T23:40:43.122+0000)

Garen has a low cd gap closer technically, as does Urgot.

The simple fact is that a juggernaut is a tankier fighter who gives up less scaling defensive tools and hard CC pick potential in exchange for more damage.

You can even do a juggernaut test by grabbing that champion and taking him to mid lane against traditional assassins that are not Zed or Akali (zed's nature as an AD mage and akali also having plentiful ranged poke with engage denials make them the only assassins able to deal with tankier stat check juggernauts) and watching them stat check the living hell out of any melee assassin.

Kled, Aatrox will stomp even Yasuo or Diana via sheer stat check.

Kled Fiora and Aatrox have dashes and are unaffected by slows. Garen only has a movement speed boost thst is easily beatable with perma frost kiters like Ashe lmfao.

ZackTheWaffleMan2 votes

fair enough, but the others are definitely juggernauts

Larriet2 votes

{quoted}

kled isnt considered a juggernaut, he is considered a skirmisher like fiora if im not mistaken, same with aatrox. Basically, if the champion has a low cd gap closer, its not a jug.

Yes, juggernauts are essentially high damage & durability, low mobility & CC.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

Kled is a diver, Aatrox is a juggernaut

Bjørnetjenesten1 votes

If Ryze become a juggernaut, they need to give him a VU where he looks like a blue ronnie coleman and make him the size of chogath at max stacks.

Pandara1 votes

To be frank I think he can already be used like a juggernaut and also a burst mage, he was already able to build tanky ap items that come with mana and he is tougher to kill as well as having a large amount of damage, now having conqueror work with adaptive force he can easily and strongly be played as an ap juggernaut, I wouldnt be surprised if we see him being played with the same usual ap/mana items for his passive but then taking items that make him a bit harder to kill, with the new conqueror he will be able to pull an additional 50 adaptive force and heal for 15% of his absurd late game damage so he can 1v5 and stay relatively healthy I see this working though to be honest im just a low elo pleb so take it with a grain of salt

AronCartman1 votes

This is so fucking dumb lmfao. Just remember his next rework in 6 months will make hin have a higher then 43% solo que wr while also being balanced in proplay /s

LankPants1 votes

Pretty much what Ryze used to be. I personally liked S1/2/3 Ryze more than what we have now. He used to be really tanky but completely lacked burst and required you to cast a huge string of spells to deal damage.

Padoµch1 votes

I remember that back in S2 and people played him as a juggernaut rushing Frozen Heart and it worked, but that was like 9 reworks ago or some ****...

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

That sounds like ur making him into a battle mage that is more defined by more sustain and less range like a traditional battle mage...

RyzeRework1 votes

I think the problem with ryze is he becomes a problem every year around worlds because 1 Asian dude abuses him and everyone screams op because g2 lost at worlds

IMelchorI1 votes

how do you make the theme work? does ryze start beating you up with his scroll?

Vlada Cut1 votes

No. Because he'd even have more damage and HP, even without his W having ajy sort of CC, he'd still chade you down with his spell casts cause of Phase Rush.

And believe me, you DON'T want an AP Ranged Juggernaut with mobility which they shouldn't have. Vladimir

Blue Shift1 votes

All juggernauts have some sort of CC ability to help them chase, but the difference is that all of them are melee, so I think the best way to go about things would be removing his empowered W root altogether, keeping the slow, and maybe instead giving him something else.

Vlada Cut1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Shift,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BzVXEohZ,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2019-11-21T14:55:14.618+0000)

All juggernauts have some sort of CC ability to help them chase, but the difference is that all of them are melee, so I think the best way to go about things would be removing his empowered W root altogether, keeping the slow, and maybe instead giving him something else.

No they don't. They have those CC's to make sure melee's don't go anywhere from their friend zone. That CC can punish ranged only if they are stupid enough to stand still and cast their spells from mid to close range without kiting.

EVEN with Ryze being a Juggernaut, he'd still be ranged and ignoring the immobile part of being a Juggernaut through Phase Rush just shows that THIS concept, would be a pure failure.

Making him more of a Shielding/Utility Mage Fighter/AP Bruiser at the expense of losing damage or even waveclear would've been a better solution rather than giving him both free damage and HP at the expense of nothing.

Blue Shift1 votes

I don't really know what to tell you, it doesn't seem like you did any research or even considered my point. It doesn't seem like anything I say can change your mind.

Vlada Cut1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Shift,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BzVXEohZ,comment-id=000c000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-21T23:49:33.873+0000)

I don't really know what to tell you, it doesn't seem like you did any research or even considered my point. It doesn't seem like anything I say can change your mind.

Says you. Look who's ignorrant enough to make Ryze even more broken than he already is without even giving him counterplayable weaknesses.

I'm out of here

Grouchy Poro1 votes

Didn't know juggernauts could 1 shot tanks

voidscaler1 votes

ryze has always been the "mana scaling" champion removing that from his abilities would sort of remove his identity (cough aatrox revive cough) if you want him to be a "tanky" juggernaut type champion while still being THE mana scaler my suggestion would be to give him a varient on the old singed passive have him gain either health from mana, or a % of incoming damage taken from mana before health, and keep his mana scaling on abilities (though maybe slightly lower then right now to compensate for defence as a damage stat) this would mean he is still the MANA champion, while at the same time building mana would still allow him to be a "juggernaut" type champion it would likely pull him away from seraphs and the like and back to his old builds of things like frozen heart

Blue Shift1 votes

Mana scaling champion has never been his identity, he has always been and was intended to be a sort of gatling gunner mage.

They could maybe find a way to keep it, but all it would do is force his normal numbers down, meaning that you need to build mana to be at what you should be, lowering his overall build paths to have to build mana. Removing it is just a better idea, you should be incentivized to build mana if you want to stay in fights longer, not be forced to build it.

5050BS1 votes

I think the issue that Ryze has (and a lot of "OP" champs) is that he has very High Clicks per Second or CPS.

Basically all champs that have a High CPS are OP. They win vs anyone that has lower CPS or anyone that has things on CD that lower their CPS to be lower then the champ you are playing.

Basically the Champ with the higher CPS wins.

This is why Akali is OP vs a lot of champs because she has high CPS. Same with Yasuo

Auto attacks count as part of CPS when the auto attack damage starts to equal an abilities damage.

Again why Akali and Yasuo are so OP in the hands of someone with some skill.

Ryze has massive CPS so is OP.

If Riot would rework all champs to balance out damage based on CPS the game would be a hell of a lot better. Slow champs do a SHIT ton of damage if you get hit. Fast CPS champs do low damage but are always attacking.

There also should be a min and max CPS allowed. So we players don break shit (hand or mousekeyboard) while playing.

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