Why the game feels worse?

Blue Shift·Oct 11, 2019·34 votes·13,792 views

Many of the new champs don't have much counterplay to them, so if a jungler ganks your lane a few times in the early game, it makes it really hard to come back. This could also be why the game feels so snowbally.

73 Comments

Handy Sandy Oct 11, 20198 votes

Why the game feels worse?

because you read boards and learnt that instead of just playing the game you should just call everything overpowered lol

SpeeedyOct 11, 20195 votes

go watch videos from 2013 era of league where a fed zed that was 9/1/1 with 300+ cs at 28 minutes in game can't kill an ADC (also 4 levels advantage and hitting everything), I wish I got into league back then so compared to now yes everything is overpowered. As an ADC I know I'm instantly going to die soon as I see a duskblade

dont believe me? heres a vod https://youtu.be/JvzqJsusdQI?t=1682

Handy Sandy Oct 11, 20193 votes

go watch videos from 2013 era of league where a fed zed that was 9/1/1 with 300+ cs at 28 minutes in game can't kill an ADC

that sounds like a terrible game to play

As an ADC I know I'm instantly going to die soon as I see a duskblade

not if they misplay as hard as that zed lol

also this:

https://youtu.be/JvzqJsusdQI

their team died in like 2 secs. damage is nothing new.

JamareeOct 11, 20195 votes

They all have counterplay, just isn't as simple as do X, or do Y anymore.

Blue ShiftOct 11, 20198 votes

Can you give a few examples?

JamareeOct 11, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Shift,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5Q7q6YX,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-10-11T06:38:55.818+0000)

Can you give a few examples?

Sure, what champion?

Blue ShiftOct 11, 20194 votes

I'll just keep it simple and name a few of the most recent champions. Morderkaiser, Pantheon, Kayle.

JamareeOct 11, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Shift,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5Q7q6YX,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-11T06:56:23.707+0000)

I'll just keep it simple and name a few of the most recent champions. Morderkaiser,

Slow, immobile, range relatively short except for one ability.

Pantheon

Couldn't tell you, haven't played him to know, though unless I have his passive wrong, he doesn't really do damage unless his passive is stack.

Kayle.

One of the weakest, if not the weakest early game in the game until level 11.

Blue ShiftOct 11, 201910 votes

None of these are counterplay except kayle, which isn't even true anymore because now at 6 she gets ranged, which she can use to klepto abuse.

JamareeOct 11, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Shift,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5Q7q6YX,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-11T07:09:43.698+0000)

None of these are counterplay except kayle, which isn't even true anymore because now at 6 she gets ranged, which she can use to klepto abuse.

How are they not? Mordekaiser is a slow immovable jugg of a champion. He is forced to win fights or die because he lacks the tools to do ANYTHING except go forward and he doesn't even go forward at a remarkable rate. Yeah, he can force people to 1 vs 1 him, but beyond that, kiting and range in general > Mordekaiser and if you catch him, as long as you are smart, he will have no chance but to ulti the champion who is more then ready to fight him.

I have nothing on Pantheon because I don't play him, a lot of a champion's counterplay is learned when you play them, of course under someone who knows the champion, they seem unstoppable and outright unbeatable because of a player's mastery which accounts far more then skill does.

Case in point, I think a fair amount of people here would say that Jax is OP but because you play him, you will likely argue against it.

And congrats, she can procc Klepto, too bad her kill potential pre eleven is trash.

Blue ShiftOct 11, 20195 votes

Case in point, I think a fair amount of people here would say that Jax is OP but because you play him, you will likely argue against it.

I play a lot of jax like you said, and I believe that jax e is one of the strongest abilities in the entire game. The only reason I think he is fair right now is because of how much cancer top lane has with kennen, ryze, lissandra, vladimir, etc... that can hard counter melee champs and force many of them to be useless.

yay nibbersOct 11, 20194 votes

Morde's Q has 625 range. That's enough to hit all but a very small number of ranged champs from the very edge of their auto-attack range and then some.

LightswornLanceOct 11, 20192 votes

Thats actually pretty short most mage abilities hover around 900-1100 range.

yay nibbersOct 11, 20193 votes

It's long for a juggernaut though. Don't forget that he also has a huge pull with up to 900 range.

LightswornLanceOct 11, 20192 votes

Both are slow skills shots, I have always said that tier 2 boots is better than 100 mr against morde.

JamareeOct 11, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=yay nibbers,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5Q7q6YX,comment-id=000000000000000000000003,timestamp=2019-10-11T13:54:34.067+0000)

Morde's Q has 625 range. That's enough to hit all but a very small number of ranged champs from the very edge of their auto-attack range and then some.

Yeah and once you dodge that then he is you know just still slowly lumbering towards you.

He has tools in his kit to attempt to survive against ranged harass or should it be that he should have no way to interact at all with ranged poke.

RyusaetherOct 12, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=yay nibbers,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5Q7q6YX,comment-id=000000000000000000000003,timestamp=2019-10-11T13:54:34.067+0000)

Morde's Q has 625 range. That's enough to hit all but a very small number of ranged champs from the very edge of their auto-attack range and then some.

Morde's Q cast time makes it fairly predictable, even though it has range you can 1) expect it whe he comes up close in that range 2) react to it on cast 3) use a movement option to dodge it.

Plus, its damage is not much when near minions, it's like an Illaoi Q but shorter and with no heal (and a bit faster).

[{quoted}](name=yay nibbers,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5Q7q6YX,comment-id=00000000000000000000000300000000,timestamp=2019-10-11T15:14:16.066+0000)

It's long for a juggernaut though. Don't forget that he also has a huge pull with up to 900 range.

Yeah, and they are both instant cast point&click uh?

People complaining on juggernauts having no counterplay is always funny.

yay nibbersOct 12, 20192 votes

I'm not even complaining about juggernauts dude. I love juggernauts. It's one of my favorite classes to play. I was just pointing out that Morde's range is relatively long for a juggernaut in counter to Jamaree's point that his range is relatively short. It's really not. Most of his abilities actually have relatively long range for his class. I didn't say anything about whether they were hard to dodge or not, I didn't even complain about the range as I brought it up. You're getting defensive over nothing.

Personally, I think his passive is actually way more annoying than the rest of his kit.

RyusaetherOct 13, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=yay nibbers,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5Q7q6YX,comment-id=00000000000000000000000300020000,timestamp=2019-10-12T18:30:41.707+0000)

I'm not even complaining about juggernauts dude. I love juggernauts. It's one of my favorite classes to play. I was just pointing out that Morde's range is relatively long for a juggernaut in counter to Jamaree's point that his range is relatively short. It's really not. Most of his abilities actually have relatively long range for his class. I didn't say anything about whether they were hard to dodge or not, I didn't even complain about the range as I brought it up. You're getting defensive over nothing.

Personally, I think his passive is actually way more annoying than the rest of his kit.

Yeah but the conversation was about champions having no counterplay, so when you brought the range in I thought you were considering ittoo big to have counterplay.

Gotta be honest: his passive is a bit broken, but he doesn't have anything else going for him in terms of damage aside his Q and E, the first having lower dmg on multiple targets and the second not being that strong either. His autos are strong but nothing out of control, so he kinda needs his passive as it is or else he would need a huge powershift on easily dodgeable abilities or on his autos AP ratio.

Like I will try some times going Nashor just to see if he becomes an even better duelist with that

Clone Is FriendOct 11, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Shift,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5Q7q6YX,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-11T06:56:23.707+0000)

I'll just keep it simple and name a few of the most recent champions. Morderkaiser, Pantheon, Kayle.

For morde go adaptive helm for panth just build an armor item and kayle frozen heart is good... you picked shit examples

Blue ShiftOct 11, 20193 votes

I picked the 3 most recent reworks for simplicity and to make a point. None of these are counterplay.

Clone Is FriendOct 11, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Shift,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5Q7q6YX,comment-id=000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-10-11T08:12:17.184+0000)

I picked the 3 most recent reworks for simplicity and to make a point. None of these are counterplay.

What the fuck u mean Bud. building an item that COUNTERS the enemys main dmg is not counterplay? i sware these idiots just look at u.gg or someshit and pick a champ and follow highest winrate and dont actually think shit

Yets4240Oct 12, 20191 votes

CounterBUILD =/= CounterPLAY.

RyusaetherOct 12, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Shift,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5Q7q6YX,comment-id=000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-10-11T08:12:17.184+0000)

I picked the 3 most recent reworks for simplicity and to make a point. None of these are counterplay.

Mordekaiser poke him if you're ranged or have a ranged ability, dodge his E (not difficult at all) and try to not proc his passive if you can (in small trades). In general, go on him after he misses E or if he uses W to heal, when he has 6 poke him or fight him only if he misse his E, it has 21s CD lvl1 rank so it's pretty meh, as Jax don't ult before he ults you or he gets a % of your buffed stats, spare your E for when you're in the shadow realm if you can, if you want to escape after spare your jump for when the ult finishes so you can jump on your minions, use E after he uses his Q so he only has Autos going for him.

Pantheon I don't know much tbh, I imagine you should try and start your E when he leaps because when empowered it has multiple autos after that make him get his passive up again, so if you cancel those he deals no damage, and then you can stun/leap+stun him and proceed with your damage (after his Shield expires, don't blow your load before).

As for Kayle , I hate her as well, but I gotta recognize she's pretty useless pre-6, and even until 11, but at that point she becomes basically unfightable (at least for my non-mobile champs). Go for some tank item that reduces attack speed and try to avoid her slow

LightswornLanceOct 11, 20191 votes

Mordekaiser, Immobile juggernaut, avoid his skill shots and he can do nothing to you.

Pantheon, falls off a cliff and does very little damage late game

Kayle, Her early game is the weakest in the entire game, but you mostly have to hope your jungler has enough presence of mind to camp her, the same you would do for a nasus, you dont let her reach late game. Her ult makes it hard but not impossible to tower dive her.

Starcraft243verOct 11, 20191 votes

They have telegraphed spells you can easily dodge, as for morde ult you can just qss it and then kite him to death if you are ranged.

Kayle is a joke, cc her, burst her, do whatever you want, it's just a kogmaw with less range, respect its damages and you are good.

New pantheon : bait his invu, dodge his spells, he has way more counterplays than its previous version.

MihalikbOct 11, 20191 votes

Mundo. Yasou. Kennen. Akali. Pyke. Kaisa. Tryndamere. Khazix.

What's the counterplay? Enlighten us oh wise one!

(Asking your jungle to camp your lane doesn't count as "counterplay").

GilxeNOct 11, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Mundo. Yasou. Kennen. Akali. Pyke. Kaisa. Tryndamere. Khazix.

What's the counterplay? Enlighten us oh wise one!

(Asking your jungle to camp your lane doesn't count as "counterplay").

Yasuo is easiest of all ur listed champs to punish, yes you have to pick certain champs but still you can tunnel a good counter play.

Kha'Zix, well thats a story where his dumb point to click one shots starts... Akali is a high skillcap ceiling champ, who not every one can play her well. Pyke is a complicated champ because of the wrongly taken changes. Kai'sa since release were better version of Vayne.

Idk about Kennen and Mundo.

MihalikbOct 11, 20193 votes

The counterplay you listed is - Hope they suck.

That's not really "counterplay".

LightswornLanceOct 11, 20191 votes

Kennen Kaisa and Khazix are the only ones up there that are actually OP.

Tryndamere is just bad design with RNG crits. Fairly easy to outplay and win 1v1's against him depending on champion.

Yasuo is a melee adc, he is pretty much just as squishy as an ezreal, one cc and he is dead in a team fight.

Pyke can't actually oneshot you and is terrible outside the laning phase, by far the most counterable up there.

Akali doesnt seem to be all that strong right now I think the latest nerfs took her out of broken tier.

Mundo I rarely see so I dont know what your problem with him is.

MihalikbOct 11, 20192 votes

Yes. Tryndamere is bad design. But that doesn't change the fact that whether he snowballs and steamrolls everyone or not is largely not up to you.

RNG decided to give him 3 crits in a row. Congratulations now he is fed and tower diving you and there's nothing you can do.

Yasou is one of those Champs where if he gets lucky/is played by a competent person he turns into an abomination that can't be CCed or hit and will oneshot your entire backline off one lucky whirlwind. Again, it's not really up you what happens, it's all decided by Yasou's luck that day.

Akali is hard to play. She's just as broken as ever if played by someone who is actually good with her. She just used to be so overstat that people who couldn't land a single skillshot could auto you to death with it.

The counterplay to Mundo is to hope he's not a jungler (in lane you can use the minions to soak up his Q axe spam, so you can actually fight him). If he is a jungler you just have to hope his team throws the game or that you have a Yi or Vayne. Which are basically the only two Champs that can kill him past lvl 11.

CC doesn't work on him, fighting him in melee range is impossible, you can't run away from him as he can spam axes every 3 to 4 seconds and he heals for so much that Grevious Wounds doesn't actually help you kill him, it just allows you to kill him if you can 1v4 him.

Daddy AntsOct 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Mundo. Yasou. Kennen. Akali. Pyke. Kaisa. Tryndamere. Khazix.

What's the counterplay? Enlighten us oh wise one!

(Asking your jungle to camp your lane doesn't count as "counterplay").

Actually it does count as counterplay.

Counterplay is a "way to beat the champion" not a way to make them useless.

As long as the champion has a way to be beaten then counterplay exists.

There is not a single champion in the game who is unbeatable and has "no counterplay"

Definition of counterplay

a countering move or maneuver in a game or competition

"Just CC him"

"Stomp him early"

"Buy Control Wards"

"Buy QSS"

"Ward deep

"Group up so Rengar/Kha'Zix can't isolate and pick you off."

All forms of counterplay.

Countering means giving you a chance to beat it, not to auto beat it because you built an item/did something.

Hi im 12Oct 11, 20191 votes

qiyana and akali :)

JamareeOct 11, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5Q7q6YX,comment-id=0000000000000002,timestamp=2019-10-11T14:04:15.413+0000)

qiyana and akali :)

Couldn’t tell you, haven’t played them, that said, Akali is one of the lowest win rate champions in the game at the moment so Shen clearly isn’t as strong as people make her out to be.

Hi im 12Oct 12, 20192 votes

azir was also low wr when he was the most broken shit in the game with 0 counterplay, most people not being able to pilot something doesn't mean it ain't strong.

JamareeOct 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5Q7q6YX,comment-id=000000000000000200000000,timestamp=2019-10-12T00:18:25.541+0000)

azir was also low wr when he was the most broken shit in the game with 0 counterplay, most people not being able to pilot something doesn't mean it ain't strong.

Was broken in higher elos though

Hi im 12Oct 12, 20192 votes

was broken in the hands of anyone that could play him*

JamareeOct 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5Q7q6YX,comment-id=00000000000000020000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-12T01:26:07.622+0000)

was broken in the hands of anyone that could play him*

That is every champion though.

Hi im 12Oct 12, 20192 votes

ah yes please tell me how people that are competent at volibear destroy challenger players with no counterplay

JamareeOct 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5Q7q6YX,comment-id=0000000000000002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-12T02:14:39.165+0000)

ah yes please tell me how people that are competent at volibear destroy challenger players with no counterplay

Well back in 9.16 and 9.18 where his win rate was respectively 53% and 60%, I would say he did it fairly easily, that said, why does challenger even matter for you?

Hi im 12Oct 12, 20192 votes

oh for sure his overall 50% ish winrate shows us that his destroying games in challenger with his 0.5% pick rate, you just can't go into a game and not be destroyed by a competent volibear player, challenger is also filled with volibear players because his just so good when mastered.

why does challenger even matter for you?

because you're claiming that every champion is broken when you know how to play em lmao

RyusaetherOct 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5Q7q6YX,comment-id=000000000000000200000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-12T08:35:48.693+0000)

oh for sure his overall 50% ish winrate shows us that his destroying games in challenger with his 0.5% pick rate, you just can't go into a game and not be destroyed by a competent volibear player, challenger is also filled with volibear players because his just so good when mastered.

because you're claiming that every champion is broken when you know how to play em lmao

He literally said in which patches he was OP when mastered, are you even reading?

There are plenty of games stomped by non-OP champs because good players are playing them, take for example Asol before they changed him (not when he was strong with GLP), Viktor, Orianna, Jhin, etc.

Ofc if a champ is dumpstered it's a bit harder, but tell me if you haven't seen Kalista or Azir pop off in some of your games even with all the nerfs they got.

Hi im 12Oct 12, 20192 votes

He literally said in which patches he was OP when mastered, are you even reading?

he wasn't changed in any of the patches, the only reason he was winning games was that the sample size was 20 games and rng lmao

Asol before they changed him

asol hasn't been weak at a single point since release.

tell me if you haven't seen Kalista or Azir pop off in some of your games even with all the nerfs they got.

well considering 20 games sample size made volibear destroy challenger https://u.gg/lol/champions/kalista/build?rank=challenger your "weak" kalista has a 80% wr :)

RyusaetherOct 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5Q7q6YX,comment-id=00000000000000020000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-12T08:54:56.841+0000)

he wasn't changed in any of the patches, the only reason he was winning games was that the sample size was 20 games and rng lmao

asol hasn't been weak at a single point since release.

well considering 20 games sample size made volibear destroy challenger https://u.gg/lol/champions/kalista/build?rank=challenger your "weak" kalista has a 80% wr :)

When they made GLP not build from Catalyst he got fairly weaker, he was way less reliable and easier to go on top and hit until he died. Plus it's not a pick up and play, only few people play Asol and make his winrate rise, thus proving that, when highly mastered, champs are strong

Yeah, so when few people play a champ well they are more threatening than one might thing, confirming Jamaree's post? I agree with you then. I know it's on few games, but I bet if you get to OTP's profiles they have high winrates for these champs even in more games.

Daddy AntsOct 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5Q7q6YX,comment-id=00000000000000020000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-12T08:54:56.841+0000)

https://u.gg/lol/champions/kalista/build?rank=challenger your "weak" kalista has a 80% wr :)

"21 Matches"

Imagine using a sample size of 21 matches.

JamareeOct 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5Q7q6YX,comment-id=000000000000000200000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-12T08:35:48.693+0000)

oh for sure his overall 50% ish winrate shows us that his destroying games in challenger with his 0.5% pick rate,

It was 53 and 60% actually, and with how few games get played comparatively in challenger, I mean...yeah?

because you're claiming that every champion is broken when you know how to play em lmao

Because they are, mastery and personal skill can get you all the way up to the highest points in this game. It's why Trick2g can hit Grandmaster with Udyr, Nasus, and Volibear.

It's why Sirchez can hit Grandmaster with Singed.

Why Anniebot can hit challenger with Annie.

Are there OP champions in the game, of course there are, but if you are willing to put in the work, you can get up there, it will be easier with certain champions of course, but we have plenty of people showing that you can make it with just about anyone.

Hi im 12Oct 12, 20192 votes

aren't all the players you listed hardstuck diamonds now? not that anyone could hit GM on NA this season playing with their feet anyways but ya know.

It was 53 and 60% actually, and with how few games get played comparatively in challenger, I mean...yeah?

you don't look at a single patch of a champion being picked 0,5% of games for stats, you look at the patches since their last change :)

JamareeOct 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J5Q7q6YX,comment-id=00000000000000020000000000000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-10-12T09:04:54.319+0000)

aren't all the players you listed hardstuck diamonds now? not that anyone could hit GM on NA this season playing with their feet anyways but ya know.

Couldn't tell you with Sirch and Trick this season, don't watch them as much as I used to, do know however about Anniebot who bounces in and out of Challenger.

you don't look at a single patch of a champion being picked 0,5% of games for stats, you look at the patches since their last change :)

Ok, my point remains valid though, you can get to high elo with just about any champion.

Hi im 12Oct 12, 20191 votes

however about Anniebot who bounces in and out of Challenger.

doesn't bounce "in and out" of challenger, he hit challenger when rito fucked up the ladder to the point where d5 players with 30% wr were hitting challenger, now he dropped out of it though and isn't making it back in any time soon. I don't think trick has ever been challenger either lmao