Riot needs to stop designing counterplay as if people are intermediate bots

The Ecdysiast··5 votes·440 views

There are several examples of champions with counterplay that is too easy to play around. The simple fact of the matter is that if it were as easy as it sounds, those champions would have win and play rates matching that claim. Which they don't. There are plenty of champions who are too easy to counterplay, and they suffer at the bottom as a result.

Sure, on paper it sounds balanced to make counterplay things like: dodge Zoe's E Zhonya Syndra's or Zed's R get inside Darius's Q walk away from Illaoi engage on Vlad when his Q isn't powered up CC Katarina

but that ignores the crucial fact of the matter: they aren't going to just let you do that. And some of these are harder to do than others, making them easier for the champion in question to play around.

Maybe even more important, some "counterplay" isn't even possible unless you also got to counter-pick them by chance. And the odds are just as likely that they got to pick second and know they aren't countered by your pick.

17 Comments

FOR JUSTICE3 votes

Annie counterplay: Don't stand fking close

Tokogawaruf1 votes

Probably the most boring Champion to face in lane.

Act and get oneshotted or dont do anything with her returning the favor.

leakinb3 votes

Zoe can use R to reposition and hit you with E item 3157 cd is longer than their R Darius has 90% slow and a pull+40% slow to NOT let you escape his outer Q One hit from Illaoi E can zone you out or you eat tons of dmg Vladimir Q cd is only long when low ranks and he builds cdr items Katarina E dodge cc easily

Oxyrotten2 votes

{quoted}

Zoe can use R to reposition and hit you with E item 3157 cd is longer than their R Darius has 90% slow and a pull+40% slow to NOT let you escape his outer Q One hit from Illaoi E can zone you out or you eat tons of dmg Vladimir Q cd is only long when low ranks and he builds cdr items Katarina E dodge cc easily

Zoe fires from a single direction in an extremely telegraphed manner. item 3157 on average is going to be off cd before the next fight, zed is not ulting you multiple times in a single fight Darius Why would you run from his Q? Illaoi So dodge it? Vladimir You miss the point, you will only lose trades with his Q if it is empowerd Katarina Why are you wasting your cc before she ults?

The Ecdysiast1 votes

All you did was reword what I said in the OP, and like I said, you're acting as if the people playing those characters aren't actually people

Zoe aims at you Syndra Zed buy CDR so their ults are off cooldown three times as often Darius gets in range to E. He has a slow and pull to ensure you stay in the range of his Q via him moving. A bot would stand still with you in the center. Illaoi again, aims at you. If it were as simple as dodging she wouldn't see any high level play at all. Vladimir uses Q. You're just plain wrong about that trade point. You don't win trades just because his Q isn't empowered. He simply heals again. It's like you don't know how lane sustain works. Katarina doesn't need her ultimate to get a kill. And like I pointed out in the OP, requires you to counter pick. Counterpick isn't counterplay.

Lunar Lunacy3 votes

Usually I wouldn't make such an asinine comment as this, but really the only thing I have to say on the matter is... Get good? Those are all things you should be learning in bronze/silver...

Intermediate bots aren't even hard to beat.

It's not that hard to sidestep either most abilities either.

We all know Zoe's champion design sucks so I guess I'll agree with you on that point.

You also forget that part of counterplay is counterbuilding, so in the case where you are up against a syndra or something, building some magic resist counts as counterplay. Once she can not longer one shot you you're probably fine to engage on her

The Ecdysiast3 votes

First things first, being consistently gold isn't an achievement. Gold doesn't deteriorate because it isn't where the good players are. So you aren't one to be talking down to players with a year of experience on you.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I said bots are hard to beat. My point was they're easy to beat, and champions shouldn't be designed around the idea that human players are as bad as bots.

And like I said, some forms of counterplay are null because they require you to counter-pick to be able to do them. That includes having base/scaling high enough to allow for a defensive item early on when you aren't playing a tank.

Hayaishi2 votes

Katarina's "counterplay" has always been bullshit. Specially because if she's ahead she will kill you before you can CC her.

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

acutally I find it pretty easy to just.... Lulu cc and walk away from aloha. dunno about you.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

As Lulu top as a counterpick to Illaoi? Well, yeah. If you specifically counterpicked her then it shouldn't be a problem. I said in the OP that some of them require you to pick against them, which you don't get the chance to do half the time.

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

ma I'm talking teamfights. in lane if you picked bad something like malphite you could... literally just walk sideways, she has 0 cc outside of 10 minutes standing in her e or something ridiculous, limited gapclosers, and a q with insane windup, a telegraphed area, and no cc to boot.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Again, you're assuming she isn't AIMING AT YOU.

You're acting like the Illaoi player is always a bot, not a real person.

If what you said were true, no Illaoi would ever land any ability.

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

I assume no such thing sir how dare you [sg-shisa] it's certainly much harder for her than other champions. and if you have even a decent movement speed, are not currently minion blocked (at which point her e is useless) or just buy boots ever, you should have no troubles walking out of aloha's skillshots.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

If that were true, her winrate would match the winrate of a 4v5, since making her completely useless is an easy matter.

Except for the facts that she has one of the highest base attack stats, two of the widest basic abilities, healing that doesn't require healing items, a core item that nearly negates her one weakness.

You're treating it like she can't lead shots and like minions make very single skillshot in the game useless.

I'm sorry you disagree, but your opinion isn't in line with the facts.

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

oh no? so I've not been simply walking to the side and dodging her tentacles. let me tell you something, if she leads, walk back the way you came, she just gave you the shorter distance to walk out of. if she sets it directly on top of you, you're pretty much guaranteed to be able to walk out of it so long as you're paying attention

oh and yeah minions make her e useless because they block it with their bodies. so there's a fact. healing without items isn't exactly new, most (pretty sure all) bruisers and some assassins have heals in their kit independent of items. I'm not treating it like anything, I'm explaining that as wide as her q is it has a massive wind up time and if you have any mobility or bought some goddam boots you can pretty handily dodge it 90% of the time. so her base AD is high? so stay at range until you're ready to kill her, and hope you have some cc when you do or she'll just ult for a double with a phage.

not I said Q, not tentacles, because there are times when she can spam you with tentacle slams with her passive and w and you won't have such an easy time dodging, especially if she bought a frozen gauntlet and let me tell you that hurts. but if she's just throwing a q out at you to poke you shouldn't be quaking in your boots.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Hope you have some cc

So, as I said, you need to counterpick her with a top laner who has a stun.

As far as dodging her Q, the end of the hitbox is still past the indicator and it has a very wide girth. It takes a dash to handle that girth against an Illaoi played by a human.

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

not hard to find a tank with cc these days. I expect most of them have it or they'd be totally useless. who do you play that has 0 ways to keep an aloha where you want her for at least the duration of her health bar?

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