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I don't understand why Tryndamere is getting buffs.

Zerenza··27 votes·4,065 views

I don't like to pull winrates out but he had a 50+ winrate already, why buff him more?

Like i understand he hasn't been "Meta Relevant" for awhile but, i mean, pantheon hasn't either. Pantheon can still have a 56% winrate for 6 straight months, just like Tryndamere. Both can have extremely Binary gameplay with little to no counterplay outside of "Play like a bitch or CC them."

Like i understand the Counterplay behind Tryndamere "Oh he's a berserker the only way you should be able to stop him is by CCing him" but i feel like his kit is very toxic and not fun to play against while also being extremely old. We've all been cheesed by Tryndamere at level 1 with his free Crit, by level 6 he can usually solo dive you and spend 5 seconds under your tower completely invulnerable, that's longer than any other champion in the game at that stage in the game and it's really annoying because you can't do anything about it.

Again, i understand the "Counterplay" to him, i understand what is "Archetype" is, i just think he's too Binary and Outdated to deserve buffs of any kind, the same can be said for a few more champions.

He's one of my top choices for a full VGU, he could be so much more than "Right-Click, Press R when your about to die." but he isn't and facing him is not fun.

In my opinion champions like Tryndamere, Aatrox, Garen, Pantheon and many other's are just way to Binary to be competitive, when they do become competitive there's a definite problem.

40 Comments

Blåbæret10 votes

Tryndamere should never be buffed. The champion is completely braindead and has a toxic kit.

Denims Wrath6664 votes

brain dead you say? have you played tryn? lategame he's kinda tough. CONSIDER THIS its an adc meta with a __ support always beside them. normal tryn build, you're going flat damage, no defense. thats 2, maybe 3 autos from adc if you don't hit r, you die... and the 3 seconds you have, you better hope you kill at least one person and take absolutely no cc during that time (surprise, you usually do get cc'd). you might be complaining about the early/mid game, but a good tryn has a tough time if they group.

greekvandaL3 votes

{quoted}

Tryndamere should never be buffed. The champion is completely braindead and has a toxic kit.

So are all adc's the difference is trynda needs his ult because he is melee adcs dont have that problem with 550+ ranges

Zerenza2 votes

Most ADC's don't have a luck sack lane phase, free crit's(Caitlynn does which is why she was OP for so long until they nerfed her to oblivion.) and a slew of other free things that trynd has, an ADC can have invincibilty, they just need to make up for it by not having much else. For trynd he has everything he needs without doing any work at all, which is why he has a "Toxic Kit".

F3EDfromDesIr310 votes

Wait I thought those Memes about being able to win as a Tryndamere just by right clicking and pressing R were over?

No seriously, hes in an awful spot right now without Fervor and this +9 AD "Buff" at Level 18 didnt change his Position. I assume you looked his winrate up under Opgg? Well, its extremly inaccurate. Tryndamere was at a 43% Winrate 2 Months ago according to Opgg and before the "Buff" at a 48% Winrate. I guess its obvious that this smal Change doesent raise a Champs Winrate by 4% just like that.

Its not Easy to Play Tryndamere, atleast not in High Elo. Foggedftw2 is pretty much the only Tryndamere Player at Challenger right now. Tryndamere has a really easy Kit and what youre going to do next is extremly Predictable. Thats the Reason i personally think a snowballing Tryndamere is the easiest snowballing Champ to deal with. (with maybe some exceptions like Volibear)

Just some tips on how to deal with Tryndamere: "We've all been cheesed by Tryndamere at level 1 with his free Crit"

Well thats his Passive. If you prevent him from building Fury by simply Poking/trading with him when he hits the Minions hes not going to be able to keep the Fury Bar High without using it for the Q Heal. No Fury=No Crit=Champ without a Passive=Looses Trades horribly

If you mess up and just let him build up Fury while still being High HP and is about to all in you, dodge the W slow. If you dodge it he max gets 2 AA after a Spin on you before he starts to be out of Range. (125 Range)

If you really really mess up and sit under your Turret Half Health and your about to get dove by a Tryndamere with Full Health you really have to Dodge the W Slow at all Cost, even if you get Hit by an AA for standing with the Face to him. After you dodged it you just need to start walking around your Turret and abuse his smal AA range at its fullest.

Hf & gl climbing

Zerenza1 votes

I understand he's in an awful spot right now, but he wasn't for a very long time. The nature of his kit, how it works, how it's meant to play, the tools he get's that lets him play this way are what make him toxic to play against, regardless of whether you win or lose against him it feels more like a chore than an actual game. The entire game when against a Tryndamere feels like Chore, he's incredibly annoying and when he is strong he's also very hard to counter because being unable to die for 5 seconds is pretty goddamn nice and let's face it in Solo Que how often do your teamates pick in response to enemy picks, it goes up as you get higher but even in high Diamond most people would rather play something their comfortable with than counterpick someone or pick something better for the situation.

I like all of your suggestions, but that still doesn't aleviate the stress that comes from playing against him and how outdated/ Toxic his kit is in general. He needs a rework and in my opinion, like many other champions, should be kept in the gutter until then.

flibitydoo10 votes

The problem I have with the changes are that the goal was to make them "relevant" again.

But see, last time when they were last relevant champions, they were cancer to deal with. They were power farmers that PvE'd until they hit the "I outscale enough to 1 vs 5" state and then they would charge you down and right click you to death with raw stats.

And the changes? They were base stat buffs. THE WORST CHANGES. Cool things like adding more skill cap and reward for playing well should be what was given to them. Doing something as stupid as just "we'll give trynd more dmg so he can 1 v 1 turrets and run away" or "yi can ignore your support's exhaust more by adding more true dmg" are extremely dumb changes. They don't promote playing well, all they do is serve to make these champions more relevant in the worst way possible. These are one trick one mindset champions that do only one thing which is why they are kept forgotten and weak and these buffs only remove that weakness and allow them to be cancer again. The only justification (and it's a shitty one) I could possibly see being the reason why they even went through with such a terrible idea was because at some convention (or event like worlds), 7 year old little Jimbo went up to the balance team and told them how master yi was his favourite champion and the balance team decided to make the game easier on him. Because that's the only person that benefits from this.

PlanetWarwick1 votes

farming the local wildlife btw

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Yeah i also think AD carries (edit before someone pulls that card:marksmen) should finally get nerfed. Oh wait the difference is they are ranged so they are so much more fun to play against.

General Esdeath 2 votes

Yi may as well be ranged with his ult on

Karn Bishop3 votes

I agree champions that are cancer when relevent should never be buffed to relevancy, as an example Ezreal Vayne Shyvana Yasuo

Carnicore1 votes

The boards complain about so many champions though. If a champion isn't actively being reworked, then they don't deserve to be kept underpowered.

Zerenza1 votes

That's fair, i'm in the boat that if their on the list(even the one we can't see) then they should never be touched until the rework.

Netorare6 votes

Because riot loves to buff champions that can ignore any form of mechanic and that can easily do 1v5 with no skill what so ever. Just look at that garbage called yi he can ignore everything with his Q that has cd reduction if u attack something because why not.

Häxel1 votes

thats retarded, sry. If enemy has sejuani maokai, than it goes like this: maokai w, maokaiq, maokai ult, sejuani e, maokai q again, sejuani ult. CC chain into another cc chain. YI can maybe dodge 1 ability with his q, a second if he uses qss. Yis kit is ouddated, but it is currently worse as the standard. He works for lowelo, thats it. if you could easily 1v5 with no skill, why you can't climb with him to gold, plat, dia, master, challenger?

Carnicore1 votes

Master Yi has been trash for a long time. He's only good if his enemy jungler is playing much worse than him (all other junglers have better tools to gank their lanes, counterjungle, and snowball), and the enemy team drafted badly. He's received many indirect nerfs over the years, like increasing monster respawn timers, powercreeping supports, and making stealthed champions untargetable by red trinkets and pink wards. The Highlander duration nerf multiplied the effect of all of these nerfs because now he doesn't have enough time to deal with these obstacles and then get a reset.

koshkyra5 votes

Because riot wants him and yi to become batshit op so they can milk money off of them for 3-4 patches before nerfing them out of viability afterwards

Häxel1 votes

even with the buffs they are not realy viabel

Carnicore1 votes

The buffs didn't address the problems with his abilities that are holding him back in high elo and making him too strong in low elo.

ChallengerTier5 votes

"I don't like to pull winrates out" Panthon has a <50% winrate in the past month, maybe you could try researching instead of saying retarded stuff like 56% wr for 6 months? Melee AS fighters like trynd/yi have been shit since the new runes, this buff wasn't even that big. And why complain about champs like trynd when you got stuff that ACTUALLY has a 56% winrate (or close to) like skarner?

General Esdeath 2 votes

To be fair, he did have that for a long time until pre-season with the new runes. Aside from Electrocute and CdG, nothing really works well with him. And now you need to use his W to proc Sudden Impact.

Trynd and Yi struggle because they can't take the runes they need like attack/move speed. This is a rune problem, not a champion problem. If anything should be buffed, it's their attack/move speed growth, not damage.

Zerenza1 votes

Agreed, there are several champions that have been "Nerfed" due to rune's, though i'm not to sad about some of them (Such as Tryndamere.) but with many of those champions, if not all of them, their outdated anyway and the best time to do work on them is when the meta doesn't have anything to do with them. Many other champions were kept in the gutter until they were reworked, i don't see why those could be shut in the gutter (Warwick, Galio, Aatrox) but champions with much more toxic kit's can't.

List of Champs "Nerfed" by runes(Incomplete).

Tryndamere MasterYi Pantheon Mordekaiser

Those are the 4 i can think of right off the top of my head, aside from every bruiser in the game who isn't Jarvan, Fiora, Riven or Jax(This includes most juggernauts too).

General Esdeath 1 votes

Karthus Fiddlesticks Lissandra lost DFT

Viktor can't use electrocute because the rune tree doesn't give him anything, and he loved TLD

KuraSei4 votes

He is literally useless past 20 minutes. 3 out of 5 champs on your team will have CC at least. CC him he's utterly garbage. Just an annoying champ to play against like shaco. But if you think shaco is a good champ or good at winning games that is laughable

Sasogwa3 votes

I'm honestly kinda saddened by those kind of posts. Just because the kits are somewhat simple doesn't mean there is any depth to playing the champion. People think you need to have an overloaded crap kit like Lee Sin, Jayce or something to be skilled but I disagree. Aatrox, Trynd, etc. still require a lot of thought process and outsmarting to even be able to go even against superior kits, which can outright selfpeel from you without problems, outdamage you and have more utility. Trynd is more than 'E in, rightclick, press R'. You engage at the wrong time, you just get shit on, CCed and dont do anything. You splitpush with 0 vision, a bunch of people just engage on you, slightly kite you for a few seconds and you're dead. So much difference in game knowledge makes the champion terrible or decent in good hands. I think too many people have a missconception that skill is linked to 'muh flashy plays' kit and I feel it's plain wrong. I'm not trying to say that trynd, etc. are incredibly skilled champions etc. But the game is so much more than that, that just champion's kits are almost irrelevant to your success or failure. And that simple champion kits are actually healthier than every abomination created now and then, such as lanebully hypercarries with safe kits (Azir coming to mind)

Carnicore1 votes

Anyone who has seen a cowsep montage should know that Master Yi has a deceptively high skill ceiling, it's difficult to master Alpha Strike timing and quick Meditate cancels.

Zerenza2 votes

I'd have to disagree with you on some champions, Master Yi does take skill and many other champions like him, but for Aatrox and Tryndamere(Aatrox was kept horrible for this reason btw) they click on you, look at your stats, look at theirs and then they fight you if theirs are higher that is the extent of their "Skill Expression".

I don't think champions need to have super complicated kits. Most of Tryndamere's frustration comes from Lane Phase, between levels 1-5 your mainly just trying to cheese your opponent, the only reason you can is because you have that passive that gives you 35% crit(Meaning you'll crit ever 3 auto's at the least due to how crit works in league.). It's because of this that he's so frustrating, while yes you can CC him, poke him down, ect, eventually he's going to get a gank or maybe he'll hit level 6, and what he does with that is he straight up runs at you mindlessly AAing you, runs under your tower with his invulnerability for 5 seconds then uses his legit almost double flash distance dash to escape while gettting a massive heal.

This is what i mean when i say his kit is "Toxic" there isn't much you can do about him in lane, and outside of it he's just incredibly annoying. Having a tryndamere on the enemy team is a gigantic Chore, it's not fun, you don't feel "Outplayed" when you lose to him and you don't feel satisfied when you win because of the tools he has that you don't. I feel like champions like this need to stay irrelevant until they get reworked, similar to these champions before their reworks who all had the same issue Warwick, Urgot, Yorick, Evelynn, Galio, Irelia(new addition).

Sasogwa2 votes

{quoted}

I'd have to disagree with you on some champions, Master Yi does take skill and many other champions like him, but for Aatrox and Tryndamere(Aatrox was kept horrible for this reason btw) they click on you, look at your stats, look at theirs and then they fight you if theirs are higher that is the extent of their "Skill Expression".

I don't think champions need to have super complicated kits. Most of Tryndamere's frustration comes from Lane Phase, between levels 1-5 your mainly just trying to cheese your opponent, the only reason you can is because you have that passive that gives you 35% crit(Meaning you'll crit ever 3 auto's at the least due to how crit works in league.). It's because of this that he's so frustrating, while yes you can CC him, poke him down, ect, eventually he's going to get a gank or maybe he'll hit level 6, and what he does with that is he straight up runs at you mindlessly AAing you, runs under your tower with his invulnerability for 5 seconds then uses his legit almost double flash distance dash to escape while gettting a massive heal.

This is what i mean when i say his kit is "Toxic" there isn't much you can do about him in lane, and outside of it he's just incredibly annoying. Having a tryndamere on the enemy team is a gigantic Chore, it's not fun, you don't feel "Outplayed" when you lose to him and you don't feel satisfied when you win because of the tools he has that you don't. I feel like champions like this need to stay irrelevant until they get reworked, similar to these champions before their reworks who all had the same issue Warwick, Urgot, Yorick, Evelynn, Galio, Irelia(new addition).

I'm sorry but Aatrox's kit is hard to pilot and surprisingly fun to play. A lot of management of his blood pool is necessary, and just jumping and autoattacking is definitely garbage on him. You need to have a bit of a setup to play optimally, also laning phase is super interesting. And your complaints about Tryndamere are just the usual shit. I could say worse things about every other toplaner in the game pretty much.

For some examples Gnar shits on you all game, while outscaling you in splitpush and teamfights, the ranged kite tankmelter tanky teamfighter. Gangplank farms gold on you all game, while being impossible to catch due to his barrels, movespeed boost and worse slow than nasus. Camille just outtrades the shit out of you with insane true damage and insane mobility, also has a 2.0 J4 ult. Fiora has bullshit movespeed with her passive procs and ult, easily outrunning master Yi, with scaling %health true damage, a goddamn 50% attack speed slow (worse than Nasus and Malph's) on her riposte, as parrying anything and potentially stunning wasn't enough, without even talking about her ultimate's heal..

And you think Trynd is any worse? There's a reason why almost nobody except dedicated mains play the champion in decent elo. He's weak as shit, aka not at all oppressive enough. Good viable champions are much more oppressive than Trynd and that's what makes them good.

Trynd can have kind of an rng cheese, but any good Trynd player is not gonna launch laning phase on a die. The best pattern to trade is to walk up, autoattack and E out. Also Trynd in average is not that good earlygame. He's good but gets beaten in a bunch of matchups regardless of if he crits or not. And crit is not just an advantage for christ's sake, if you get lower crits than the average, then you're losing trades you shouldn't. For high elo Trynds, crit is more of a hinderance than anything; as it can make you lose trades where you played better than your opponent.

TheProfezzor2 votes

I really don't find him relevant right now. I dont trust people picking up in bronze-gold elo either.

TheBoss5622 votes

I bet more than half of you here would drop a full division if you played tryndamere. He is complete trash right now. Tanks can win 1 v 1 vs him early were tryndamere is suppose to win.

I stopped playing tryndamere and started playing tanks and climbed from gold3 (peak division with tryn) to plat3. Best of all you get almost no counters compared to tryndamere when he had fervor.

Carnicore2 votes

Tryndamere was very weak for various reasons after the runes rework. He obviously needs some reworking but he shouldn't be so weak in the meantime.

Zerenza2 votes

I agree Tryn, Yi and several other's have seen weakness after the runes rework, but tryndamere did have a huge winrate for a really long time due to the nature of his kit. The nature of it being....weird? Like he's a carry who's literal only counterplay against is to CC him, but he can't die for 5 seconds and get's Crit+AA speed for free(which btw if your level 1 tryndamere with a full rage bar you'll crit every 3 auto's at least because of how crit works in this game.).

I think champions like him need to stay underused, they can't ever be relevant in Competitive play or High ELO(Diamond+) play because the lack of interaction between player's with champions like this is really high and a sure fire sign of a huge problem(Other examples being Pantheon, Nasus, Cho'Gath and Garen, all due to kit nature just not the same ones as Trynd.).

I don't couple Yi with him in this department because while Yi is extremely frustrating he doesn't have the other parts such as free Crit, free AA Speed and the "I can't die button" meaning that CCing him is actually a good option when with tryndamere it's only a mild delay and he'll just come back later to do the same thing, heaven forbid you miss and he kills your whole team, Yi atleast you can feel a little outplayed cause of how his Q works and how good an outplay tool it is.

Side Note: Notice how 3 of the champions i listed are currently Meta Relevant in Diamond+ in some way shape or form, all of them have been at some point since the start of Season 7 which is where i think the game started going a bit downhill(Though no where near as bad as some other seem to believe).

Carnicore1 votes

These buffs aren't going to make Tryndamere relevant competitively, they're just to make him acceptably strong in soloqueue. That's what he deserves. I also strongly disagree with your statement that the only counterplay to Tryndamere is to CC him. Zoning him off the minion wave prevents him from building fury (so he doesn't get his free crit chance or healing), and he's very vulnerable when he doesn't have his ultimate.

TheDogIsOut2 votes

{quoted}

I agree Tryn, Yi and several other's have seen weakness after the runes rework, but tryndamere did have a huge winrate for a really long time due to the nature of his kit. The nature of it being....weird? Like he's a carry who's literal only counterplay against is to CC him, but he can't die for 5 seconds and get's Crit+AA speed for free(which btw if your level 1 tryndamere with a full rage bar you'll crit every 3 auto's at least because of how crit works in this game.).

I think champions like him need to stay underused, they can't ever be relevant in Competitive play or High ELO(Diamond+) play because the lack of interaction between player's with champions like this is really high and a sure fire sign of a huge problem(Other examples being Pantheon, Nasus, Cho'Gath and Garen, all due to kit nature just not the same ones as Trynd.).

I don't couple Yi with him in this department because while Yi is extremely frustrating he doesn't have the other parts such as free Crit, free AA Speed and the "I can't die button" meaning that CCing him is actually a good option when with tryndamere it's only a mild delay and he'll just come back later to do the same thing, heaven forbid you miss and he kills your whole team, Yi atleast you can feel a little outplayed cause of how his Q works and how good an outplay tool it is.

Side Note: Notice how 3 of the champions i listed are currently Meta Relevant in Diamond+ in some way shape or form, all of them have been at some point since the start of Season 7 which is where i think the game started going a bit downhill(Though no where near as bad as some other seem to believe).

?????????

The counterplay of being easily kited is the highest form of counterplay in the game. What's the counterplay of a ranged champ then? None. Then you start saying bs: tryn has free attack speed and not Yi? What? Yi has an as steroid on his R, trynd does not have a single as steroid on his kit. Also 'free' is obviously stupidly biased. Every champions has 4 'free' abilities and a 'free' passive then. The mild delay on trynd made me laugh. Tryn's mobility is really low. If you kite him through his ult, Then he's dead. Especially since he's gonna try to use his gapcloser on you during ult, otherwise his ult is basically useless. The lack of interactivity made me laugh as well to be honest. Trynd has a good sustain but he isn't tanky at all. If there's no interactivity it's when you play a champion he simply can't engage on cause he'd get permakited or just would die. And the lack of interactivity comes from the other champion at this point. Pantheon or Nasus might lack interactivity, pantheon cause he spams q and autowins, Nasus cause he basically hits cs and ignores you, but lane trynd is much more interactive than that. Much more than any meta toplaner like Gnar gp camille etc. He's melee, there can be trades, tentatives of all ins, mindgames on his w ; not a 'oh x champ automatically wins because he counters y', or both champions spamming their shit on cd because their manacosts are nonexistant. Melee matchups are immensely more interesting than boring lanebully or tank meta matchups. But obviously people like you can't accept losing to a 'muh unskilled noobchamp' so you'll definitely never accept that. And completely ignore with the current rng system, random actually affects matchups really little. The '3 crits in a row zomg' situation actually almost never happens, and is also the 'i have full fury bars and didnnt crit 5 times in a row' is also a thing

ModJikker2 votes

Removed some inappropriate content from a post. Let's make sure we're holding to the Universal Rules when we post.

Carry on

[poppy-wink]

Carnicore1 votes

Moderators here have the power to edit users' posts? That's pretty neat

ModJikker1 votes

Yup, it helps so we don't have to always delete posts if they contain just one little thing wrong. We can also edit titles and stuff so if you ever need an edit you can't do yourself, just let us know ;)

Carnicore1 votes

Editing titles, you say? As a reddit user, that's amazing.

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