why does red smite reduce dmg taken by 20%

Moody P·Jan 11, 2019·30 votes·13,157 views

what exactly is fair about this that junglers get to 2v1 me and then also make themselves 20% tankier against all of my damage for 4 seconds?

why has this item never been addressed for how obnoxious it is?

65 Comments

AlzonJan 11, 201935 votes

Probably because it’s 900 gold spent on zero combat stats. I agree it should be changed from a percentage to a flat value simply so it doesn’t inflate far beyond that 900g in effectiveness as the game goes on.

Moody PJan 11, 201915 votes

you're already getting a mini-red buff in dot damage and a better item for clearing

junglers should not have equal combat stats as a lane champion

Salvor HardınJan 11, 201910 votes

junglers should not have equal combat stats as a lane champion

That the red smite this OP is true, but also consider that a jungle is behind in gold and level to a laner.

JuiceJan 11, 201910 votes

But also consider that laner is usually facing the jungler in a 2v1 or 2v2 (rarely) situation, and that laner can also be put behind the jungler in terms of exp / gold due to camping / counter pick / bad match up etc

Moody PJan 11, 20196 votes

the jungle also gets the ability to farm with far more safety than any lane and influence the map with a sheer numbers advantage in 2v1 or 3v2 in bottom lane ganks

there's no reason you should spend any of the early game on par with a laning champion in terms of gold value from items.

Bears Dont CareJan 11, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fIHZ3Jf2,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2019-01-11T17:47:36.538+0000)

the jungle also gets the ability to farm with far more safety than any lane and influence the map with a sheer numbers advantage in 2v1 or 3v2 in bottom lane ganks

On the other hand, even though they have more unmbers they have absolutely no combat stats to speak of, get less CS, get less gold, get less XP. Can be killed more easily in a 1v1. Cannot defeat a laner in a 1v1. Unlike laners, they cannot take any other summoners besides smite and flash/ghost(maybe) so they have no combat summoners and this was given BEFORE ignite was buffed.

I like how you skip over all of the cons. Red smite is perfectly fine, you still have a damage advantage even when it is used on you.

there's no reason you should spend any of the early game on par with a laning champion in terms of gold value from items.

Why not? They constantly suffer damage in the jungle and this places them at a higher risk than other champions, particularly AP champs. The only champion who goes through the jungle without any damage at all is graves.

KAYLE TURBO INTJan 12, 20191 votes

most champs after first back shouldnt be taking much dmg at all tbh and redsmite makes you be able to duel 1v1 on quite a few champs

3TWarriorJan 12, 20192 votes

graves does not suffer damage constantly in the jungle

some ranged junglers rarely take more than 20% now because they "kite" the jungle, which shouldn't even be a thing

Bears Dont CareJan 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

graves does not suffer damage constantly in the jungle

I said that in the very quote you were reading

some ranged junglers rarely take more than 20% now because they "kite" the jungle, which shouldn't even be a thing Kiting mobs has always been a thing.

Fire BlaustoiseJan 12, 20191 votes

The only champion who goes through the jungle without any damage at all is graves.

Warwick Volibear XinZhao Kayn Fiddlesticks MasterYi Nunu Kindred Twitch Elise

Bears Dont CareJan 13, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fire Blaustoise,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fIHZ3Jf2,comment-id=000000000000000100000002,timestamp=2019-01-12T10:43:47.462+0000)

You are wrong bud. Sorry.

BigFBearJan 11, 201910 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fIHZ3Jf2,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-01-11T16:11:24.617+0000)

junglers should not have equal combat stats as a lane champion

erm.... Why?

GayFluffyUnicornJan 11, 20196 votes

Because you don't lane?

Because you play PVE for half the game?

Because there needs to be a trade off for you not having to fight an actual opponent, being able to influence the entire map and control the most powerful neutral objectives?

The Taco KatJan 11, 20195 votes

Except junglers would be worthless because laners would just wait until they approach their camps to kill them... not to mention that this would make them incredibly weak for ganking, especially in the bot lane. Also, bear in mind that blue smite is still bought pretty often. If red smite was as broken as you make it out to be, almost no one would take blue smite.

Let's not forget that smite used to be on a 40 second cooldown, didn't have charges, and had no items that made it castable on people, instead making jungle items grant the typical stats and some bonus damage to jungle mobs. Also, don't you spend time farming in lane? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is definitely also PvE.

You can say that the jungler "is able to influence the entire map," but anyone with TP and a fair amount of mid laners do that as well. As you get higher in ranks, supports sometimes roam so much that they are levels behind in XP.

Use your trinket, buy control wards, don't make dumb decisions, and I assure you that junglers will seem way less oppressive.

Rock MDJan 11, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Taco Kat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fIHZ3Jf2,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-11T20:01:41.391+0000)

Except junglers would be worthless because laners would just wait until they approach their camps to kill them... not to mention that this would make them incredibly weak for ganking, especially in the bot lane. Also, bear in mind that blue smite is still bought pretty often. If red smite was as broken as you make it out to be, almost no one would take blue smite.

Let's not forget that smite used to be on a 40 second cooldown, didn't have charges, and had no items that made it castable on people, instead making jungle items grant the typical stats and some bonus damage to jungle mobs. Also, don't you spend time farming in lane? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is definitely also PvE.

You can say that the jungler "is able to influence the entire map," but anyone with TP and a fair amount of mid laners do that as well. As you get higher in ranks, supports sometimes roam so much that they are levels behind in XP.

Use your trinket, buy control wards, don't make dumb decisions, and I assure you that junglers will seem way less oppressive.

Koreans all agree that jungle is the strongest role and for the longest time the top 10/25 of the ladder was dominated by jungle mains.

But just be better than top Korean challengers it'll get less oppressive eventually xd

The Taco KatJan 11, 20192 votes

I won't deny that they are very powerful in capable hands. I still choose to view the fact that junglers rely on a competent laner to work with them, and that there are ways to avoid a gank from a jungler. I am speaking from semi-outdated knowledge, I should note (I don't play this as much as I used to), so there may have very well been a big change that I'm unaware of. Additionally, with Riot's war against wards over the past few years, I wouldn't be shocked if junglers have become the superior role as a result.

H1de on blueJan 12, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rock MD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fIHZ3Jf2,comment-id=000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-11T20:16:44.723+0000)

Koreans all agree that jungle is the strongest role and for the longest time the top 10/25 of the ladder was dominated by jungle mains.

But just be better than top Korean challengers it'll get less oppressive eventually xd

Last time i heard Dopa talk about role strength he said Jungle was the 4th best role in solo Q. That was before the the preseason nerfs to JG xp and tower damage going up making dives harder early on. Can't imagine he would think they're better now.

BigFBearJan 12, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Because you don't lane?

Because you play PVE for half the game?

Because there needs to be a trade off for you not having to fight an actual opponent, being able to influence the entire map and control the most powerful neutral objectives?

Rofl what a bullshit post. You sound like someone who doesn't have any clue about jungling at all. First of all. I played lane and I play jungle and lane feels way more PvE than jungling with all this last hitting and lane controlling. Yes ofc i clear camps as same you "clear" your minions, but this is just what you do on your way to the ganks. I mean Junglers should have the opportunity to farm gold like laners have or not?? Second: We "control" objectives because we "sacrifice" one summoner spell for Smite. Feel free to do the same. Only because we play on a different "lane" than you do, doesn't mean we should be less worth in terms of fighting. Actually we already have less gold and XP than laner. And btw. every good laner I able "to influence the whole map". In high Elo they do it all the time with roaming and TP. Maybe not so much in Silver.

Fire BlaustoiseJan 12, 20191 votes

We "control" objectives because we "sacrifice" one summoner spell for Smite.

Mainly due to redsmite being so strong you dont sacrifice anything.

Only because we play on a different "lane" than you do, doesn't mean we should be less worth in terms of fighting.

He's right tho. He talk about solo laners (mainly talking about top). Yeah, jungler 1v1ing solo laners shouldnt be the norm for obvious reasons.

And btw. every good laner I able "to influence the whole map".

This bs.

In high Elo they do it all the time with roaming and TP. Maybe not so much in Silver.

You are plat, dont talk about high elo and above all dont get cocky.

BigFBearJan 12, 20197 votes

D5 MMR is top 3% of players. In comparison to other Voli Junglers even less. Where does high Elo starts in your opinion? Top 0,0001%?

Saying that Junglers shouldn't be able to fight/win 1on1 against laners because "they doing jungle/pve half of the game" is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while.

Fire BlaustoiseJan 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

D5 MMR is top 3% of players. In comparison to other Voli Junglers even less. Where does high Elo starts in your opinion?

D1 ofc. How could you play with D5 and think its high elo ? anyway....

Saying that Junglers shouldn't be able to fight/win 1on1 against laners because "they doing jungle/pve half of the game" is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while.

I mean he's right... His point is "Jungler 1v1ing solo laners shouldnt be the norm". When you are fed its okay. I dont even understand why you think its fair tbg.

Its same like adc complaining about being 1v1ed by assassins & bruisers. As jungler your roles is to support your team (by support i dont mean in soraka style ofc) by bringing visions and numerical advantage.

WHY SHOULDNT YOU BE ABLE TO 1V1 A SOLO LANER ?

Cause you dont have same constraint to farm. Sure in some game you have ennemy jungler invading you and denying you... but its not the norm, and atm with the vertical jungling it dosnt matter (granted vertical jungling isnt a thing until high elo).

BigFBearJan 12, 20191 votes

Well than D5 must be high Elo because vertical jungling happens all the time there.

At the rest. I disagree, but that's ok. We can agree to disagree.

agac4234Jan 11, 20193 votes

that would make early game junglers useless

Daddy AntsJan 11, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Probably because it’s 900 gold spent on zero combat stats. I agree it should be changed from a percentage to a flat value simply so it doesn’t inflate far beyond that 900g in effectiveness as the game goes on.

Getting downvoted because you post a valid counter argument.

Voted you back up.

ZardoJan 11, 20194 votes

900 gold spent on 0 combat stats....

then when you buy a completed jg item, you get one of the most cost efficient items in the game.

BestPudgeNAJan 12, 20193 votes

{quoted}

900 gold spent on 0 combat stats....

then when you buy a completed jg item, you get one of the most cost efficient items in the game.

It makes up for some of the value but JG items still aren't cost efficient let alone among the best in the game.

item 3095

Gold Value

60 attack damage =  Gold 2100
35% attack speed =  Gold 875
    Total Gold Value = Gold 2975

Gold Value upon triggering Storm's Edge

20% movement speed = Gold 790
    Total Gold Value = Gold 3765

Gold Efficiency*

Stormrazor item Stormrazor is 106.25% gold efficient without its passive.
Stormrazor item Stormrazor is 134.46% gold efficient when triggering Storm's Edge.

item 1412

Gold Value

60 attack damage =  Gold 2100
10% cooldown reduction =  Gold 266.67
    Total Gold Value = Gold 2366.67

Gold Efficiency*

Warrior item Warrior is 90.16% gold efficient.

KAYLE TURBO INTJan 12, 20194 votes

poor example since crit adcs are a tragic existence atm edit: you forgot to mention warrior with its enchantment is much more cost efficient

BestPudgeNAJan 12, 20196 votes

{quoted}

poor example since crit adcs are a tragic existence atm edit: you forgot to mention warrior with its enchantment is much more cost efficient

So Crit ADCs have shit itemization according to you... but it's more efficient then JG itemization by far. What does that say about the JG items? Hint they're dog shit laughable status.

Warrior is the enchantment. You mean the Skirmisher's saber Stalkers blade, ~~Tracker's Knife~~ portion which gives 0 gold efficiency when fighting other players, so no it's not at all more cost efficient in the context of fighting other players.

Imagine if laners had to spend a 1000 gold just to be able to CS properly

BestPudgeNAJan 11, 20197 votes

Because you being 2 levels above us for 80% of the game while we need too spend 1000 gold on an item that doesn't give combat stats while also being forced to take smite over combat sums like Ignite and Exhaust is already a big enough advantage for you

TheBigScarecrowJan 12, 20191 votes

And im playing shaco that uses ignite and rushes tiamat :D

ZerglingOneJan 11, 20196 votes

The idea is that a jungler gives up an offensive summoner spell AND an item slot to be what they are.

The different smites attempt to lessen some of that sacrifice. The numbers might be a little high, but they do need something if they're giving up that much flexibility in their inventory and summoner spells.

Sharpest glassesJan 12, 20192 votes

We clearly dont need it. We already rule the map and have the biggest responsability to smite objectives.

HügöJan 11, 20195 votes

Because how else do you want to have a chance against someone when your role is designed to be permanent behind?

Fire BlaustoiseJan 12, 20192 votes

By using your brain and your free mobility to 2v1 instead 1v1 for no reason.

HügöJan 12, 20195 votes

Bullshit 0 knowledge answer.

BestPudgeNAJan 12, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fire Blaustoise,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fIHZ3Jf2,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-01-12T10:27:44.694+0000)

By using your brain and your free mobility to 2v1 instead 1v1 for no reason.

Except JG is a 2v2 role with top/mid and a 3 v 3 bot.. The other 2 v 2 role has one role being strong in the early game Sup and one role strong in the late game ADC. But for some reason people think Solo laners should have an advantage over Junglers the whole game.

Fire BlaustoiseJan 13, 20191 votes

Jungle is a 2v2 role i agree. But top is a 1v2 role. Mid is like bot 2v2 role.

But for some reason people think Solo laners should have an advantage over Junglers the whole game.

But here some jungler think its legit to have advantage over solo laner thanks to item 3715 .

Unlike solo laners, jungle decide when they take the 2v1 or 2v2. the choice isnt up to solo laner.

BestPudgeNAJan 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fire Blaustoise,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fIHZ3Jf2,comment-id=0003000000010000,timestamp=2019-01-13T01:17:21.784+0000)

Jungle is a 2v2 role i agree. But top is a 1v2 role. Mid is like bot 2v2 role.

But here some jungler think its legit to have advantage over solo laner thanks to .

Unlike solo laners, jungle decide when they take the 2v1 or 2v2. the choice isnt up to solo laner.

Junglers never have an advantage over a solo laner unless they super fed or a counter. JG is behind i gold, XP and sums. It's just a fact.

The second part isn't close to true at all either. Laners have a TON of choice in taking 1 v 2s the only real exception is during tower dives and even then the laner on the other side needs to set his jungler up to be able to dive.

VelasanJan 11, 20195 votes

You did look at Dev corner this morning right? They literally just talked about it.

Also, because it was originally intended as a more defensive option to go with the green one that gave wards and blue which they thought most people would use for catching people.

Over time with only the two options available anyone who doesn't need the catching power of blue smite that badly just instantly opts into red smite whether you need it or not.

For example, it's common to take red smite on Zac just for the damage reduction and to get that little bit of burn damage. However, they were just talking about nerfing it this morning.

Sharpest glassesJan 12, 20191 votes

Also, because it was originally intended as a more defensive option to go with the green one that gave wards and blue which they thought most people would use for catching people.

unless some picks like Jax & Lee, green smite was rarely used in solo Q anyway.

For example, it's common to take red smite on Zac just for the damage reduction and to get that little bit of burn damage

Its not common. Only 5 % pickrate on Zac player base.

rtbf221651412Jan 12, 20195 votes

Do we honestly want to nerf jungle to non-existance? I think we have bigger problems.

And did you know summoner 3 decreases damage by 40%?

Done25Jan 11, 20194 votes

Because it's a crappier version of exhaust's damage reduction with mini ignite. Much like blue smite is a mini BotRK effect.

The Highest NoonJan 12, 20193 votes

Here's a hint: Don't try to 1v1 them after they smite you

BestPudgeNAJan 11, 20192 votes

summoner 3 Hmmmmmmmm

Moody PJan 11, 20196 votes

210 second CD. Skirmisher's Sabre is on a 15 second cooldown between smites (90 second recharge) and gives you vision+damage over time, while lasting longer. And smite still gives you massive objective control.

BestPudgeNAJan 11, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fIHZ3Jf2,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-01-11T18:07:24.296+0000)

210 second CD. Skirmisher's Sabre is on a 15 second cooldown between smites (90 second recharge) and gives you vision+damage over time, while lasting longer. And smite still gives you massive objective control.

Exhaust gives twice the damage reduction for .5 less seconds duration and doesn't require you to auto or spend 1000 gold on an item that does nothing in combat otherwise

Exhaust is a much much better sum and laners basically never take it because of how broken ignite is atm

KAYLE TURBO INTJan 12, 20192 votes

exhaust no longer lowers mr and armor by 10 so its not a defensive and offensive option like it used to be, red smite does both reasonably well

rtbf221651412Jan 12, 20195 votes

{quoted}

exhaust no longer lowers mr and armor by 10 so its not a defensive and offensive option like it used to be, red smite does both reasonably well

It decreases damage by 40%. The hell you talking about? Who cares if it is not to the teeth with unnecessary stat decreasing. What is 10 MR and 10 Armor gonna do in this days game of who does the highest damage?

BonipherusJan 11, 20192 votes

I agree it's bs. The jungle role was adopted to free up cs and exp around the map (just as the support role was). This strategy worked quite well for the pressure that was gained from an enemy constantly hidden from view who could pop out at any moment while also securing some of the biggest objectives in the game. Sure, it wasn't as exp or gold effective as being in a solo lane but overall the pros outweighed the cons. Asking for a jungler to give the same gold/exp/combat benefits as a laner ignores the innate differences between these two roles.

Why shouldn't a jungler be able to 1v1 a laner? Well why should they? They can come out of nowhere at any time and they havent had to constantly deal with being harassed 24/7 by another player or deal with things like last hitting, wave manipulation, dodging skillshots, etc. Laners have a lot on their table and so do junglers but lets not pretend as though stat equality from these roles equals stat fairness in this kind of game. Different roles require different stats and builds and junglers are no different. Apply this thinking to other roles. Should a support who builds gold generating items and mobi boots be able to 1v1 a top laner? Do we want supports to do as much damage as junglers and do we want junglers to do as much damage as a laner?

So yea, red smite cucks a laner for no reason. It adds more forms of unnecessary additional damage to this game which has already been damage-creeped to hell. The fact that a jungler, who may even be 1 or 2 levels behind and with less combat stats can come out of a bush at any moment and turn your 1v1 into a 1v2 is enough power for the role as it is. Even a support who would be in said bush would likely be more than enough to turn the tides of that battle. A jungler needs to be less powerful than a laner in combat with other champions by the sheer nature of the power of the role itself. Junglers have been more than successful in their roles before these red/blue smites and they will continue to be strong without them.

Done25Jan 11, 20194 votes

{quoted}

They can come out of nowhere at any time and they havent had to constantly deal with being harassed 24/7 by another player

Right. Try saying that again while playing a jungle with a weak early game vs Xin/Graves.

So yea, red smite cucks a laner for no reason.

Red Smite is a crappier Ignite that only works if they actually hit their opponent for the duration of the effect. Feel free to just walk away for 4 seconds.