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Everyday i use my 300 IQ to invent a new Botlane

Ahristocats·Jun 25, 2017·22 votes·1,904 views

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naP92hNRhZY

and honestly, everytime the same conclusion comes out:

marksmen are meta because it's almost impossible to lane against them, look at the video above and imagine laning against this broken poke from lvl 1 to lvl 3, and IT TAKES AGES TO GET LVL 3 IN DUO LANE the only champions who can be played botlane, are champions who are mobile enough OR have a lot of catching potential+ damage (like darius)

and then, the match ups become binary: -either you got past lvl 3 easily without being poked and then they can't lane anymore because you're going to destroy them in 2v2 -or you got poked to death, and then you can't fight anymore

if riot wants to make marksmen an option, they need to work on their poke and the reason they need to be an option is to balance them better

because since the begining, only 3 marksmen were meta and everyone else were garbage behind them the class will remain imbalanced as much as a marksman is expected to fight an other marksman

62 Comments

Scary DoorJun 25, 201710 votes

300 IQ

Doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting a different result. Is this an example of,

a) Genius b) Creativity c) Stupidity d) Insanity e) Both c and d

RalanrJun 25, 201710 votes

A and D.

GULAG 4 UJun 26, 20172 votes

Hey look! It spells out AD, just add the C and rubrick will git triggered!

Glory ln DeathJun 25, 201715 votes

Technically, he isn't trying the same thing over and over - he's trying different iterations of a similar tactic. Especially since there are so many independent variables, you have to have a decent sample size before you can make an accurate conclusion. In addition, he's not expecting a different result - he's trying to determine what the result is in order to know whether the strategy is viable, or determine what would need to change in order to make it viable.

AhristocatsJun 25, 20178 votes

if you can't understand that i'm doing it to understand why marksmen are meta

then what should i tell you?

StaliniumJun 26, 20171 votes

Have you tried anything like Pantheon + [i dunno actually]?

Sraeg2013Jun 25, 20172 votes

Everybody is insane, some are yet to be diagnosed.

Sahn UzalJun 25, 20173 votes

1:50

Damn Sheen autos be stealin' mah hard earned kills.

AhristocatsJun 25, 20172 votes

you should know it we're both triforce users

Malicious MetalJun 25, 201719 votes

Mordekaiser laughs in highest base ad

RalanrJun 25, 20174 votes

Sion glares in envy

Sahn UzalJun 25, 20175 votes

Gangplank Laughs in better synergy with Trinity Force

EschetonJun 25, 20176 votes

Singed laughs, period

SSShutTheDuckUpJun 25, 20179 votes

Vladimir period

kasfasJun 26, 20172 votes

Please don't hate me.

Annie

PePsiLemoNNJun 25, 20173 votes

Wait you actually saying that laning as a melee bruiser in a 2v2 lane against at least 1 ranged champ isn't easy? Who would've guessed

AhristocatsJun 25, 20172 votes

idk, the entire board?

Its All SkillzzJun 25, 20173 votes

All i seen was you cheesing two immobile bot lane champions. esp with irelia + braum you can stun lock a twitch till he cant move at all. but if you tried that vs a caitlyn/ezreal/lucian they would just dash away and you wouldnt be able to stack stuns on them from braum. i know how weak marksman are in lane, sending anything with mobility + cc down there would make them useless. i lane vs riven + garen back when you could double targons an get so much gold for each of you. and even as ezreal getting flash silenced by garen was instant death. if i was that bot lane i would have just let you push the wave to me so you wouldnt have minions to jump on to gap close on me.

AirKingNeoJun 26, 20173 votes

I'm not even going to try to explain why you're wrong at this point. You're too stubborn to understand the truth.

TyrekGoldenspearJun 25, 20172 votes

I mean, if marksmen are pushed out of bot where will they go?

Burnt Iron KingJun 25, 20177 votes

Lucian, Varus and Corki are being played mid.

Quinn is a top laner

Graves and Kindred can Jungle.

Glory ln DeathJun 25, 20174 votes

Vayne and Lucian have also been played Top. Twitch is still played as a Jungler (11% of his games, with a 1.57% pick rate overall). Ezreal can easily go back to Mid - he's been there before, and he's more than willing to break items there. Jhin has shown up Top, occasionally, as well. And Miss Fortune and Ashe can both work as supports.

ninjaroxasJun 26, 20171 votes

I've seen jhin mid too

TyrekGoldenspearJun 25, 20176 votes

Yeah well where are the rest of them gonna go?

You can't possibly mention a few and expect the rest of them to go with the wind.

You should get a high elo player to help you write better posts.

Like Malicious Metal. :^)

Burnt Iron KingJun 25, 201711 votes

Well, nobody's saying they should be replaced.

Ideal scenario is seeing Melee vs Melee, Melee vs Range and Range vs Range bot lanes. There's always going to be the reliability of ranged late game DPS over a tankier, less reliable Melee carry.

TyrekGoldenspearJun 25, 20175 votes

I suppose.

But then you run into the issue of having melees strong enough to lane against a range without fully dominating them the second they hit their powerspike.

Currently one side will win hard over the other, and we need a way to bridge this gap if we hope to diversify botlane.

Big LincolnJun 26, 20171 votes

Currently one side will win hard over the other, and we need a way to bridge this gap if we hope to diversify botlane.

let melees scale into late instead of spiking mid game and then turning into discount tanks. and maybe make marksman early poke more bearable

currently with the way most melees (that would like to go bot lane) have very little options for support choices; you NEED a champ who can enable all-ins otherwise you're wasting your time. whereas a marksman would be completely fine with any support, because pretty much any support can give them a safe laning phase to farm in

melee champs don't have that luxury, so their only choice is to kill you as quickly as possible and as many times as they can

SquashCannonJun 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yeah well where are the rest of them gonna go?

You can't possibly mention a few and expect the rest of them to go with the wind.

You should get a high elo player to help you write better posts.

Like Malicious Metal. :^)

Vayne can and does very easily go top lane as a counterpick to a lot of stuff there.

AirKingNeoJun 26, 20171 votes

Varus isn't a mid laner anymore.

FaieJun 26, 20171 votes

Varus cannot be played midlane ever since the Q and lethality nerfs.

SSShutTheDuckUpJun 25, 20171 votes

At this point every diversity at botlane would be a good thing. I am not saying marksmen being trashed, but I would like other classes being viable there as well.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 26, 20171 votes

They have already cancerised other lane

TyroneWatermelonJun 26, 20172 votes

More like the average IQ of a lost African tribe member

LordOfTheLeagueJun 25, 20171 votes

Did you anything else beside ad melee bot? Like DPS mages.

AhristocatsJun 25, 20171 votes

yeah, i tried vladimir

and it's the exact same, too much poke except that with vladimir it's not from lvl 1 to lvl 3, but from lvl 1 to like lvl 6 or 7

LordOfTheLeagueJun 25, 20171 votes

Well I went to the same conclusion and now I go ad runes on Cassiopeia when I play her bot to match their poke even if I play her ap. It might be just ad runes that are op.

SalsonJun 25, 20172 votes

Azir could work in theory.

Then he goes oom and loses tower.

PureSilvrrJun 26, 20171 votes

mana is botlane azirs biggest problem besides actually making it through laning phase This guy made a really good guide for azir apc http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/platinum-marksman-azir-emperors-flurry-411816 He's an ad malz jungle main(one of the few remaining)

LordOfTheLeagueJun 26, 20171 votes

He need to look at that later.

SalsonJun 25, 20171 votes

Well new runes might change this, but thats in like half a year.

But wouldn't skirmishers like Yasuo and Gangplank or assassns like Rengar and Zed work better.

AhristocatsJun 25, 20172 votes

don't be sure about it, cuz riot said "we will give base stats compensation" without any precision, so marksmen might get bonus ad at lvl 1 in return

also yasuo adc is totally viable (in soloq at least) if you're a very very experienced yasuo, yassuo tried it like 10 times and won like 8 of them GP can't work because he is garbage before lvl 13, and needs an eternity to get it bot

rengar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjutYmhbVeY as for zed idk, his all in seems week before lvl 6

PoskeJun 25, 20172 votes

Reached chall in april playing yasuo ADC

Yasuo ADC is tier1-2

great against cait for example

Ziggs is viable in botlane I also had decent success with Azir

SalsonJun 25, 20171 votes

What's a good supp for botlane Yasuo? Knockup is a given, but is he better with aggresive ones like Blitzcrank or defensive ones like Janna .

Also Azir can work with his kit, but I keep running out of mana with item 3115 .

ninjaroxasJun 25, 20171 votes

I played sej support with a yas and we destroyed them

My Waifu VanillaJun 26, 20171 votes

Azir has mana problems no matter where you go with him since he always used 2+ Doran's to TRY to alleviate it. Also, going bot lane means you can't really use mana regen runes to help out (you NEED Armor Seals down there) so you are just kind of screwed at the end of the day. The same can be said for Ziggs if he doesn't get a nice back before 900 gold (which is entirely possible), but Ziggs DOES have the viable option of Lost Chapter/Morello while Azir will get extremely CDR capped if he tries to buy it since Azir tends to almost always get a 10% CDR item with his Nashor's to begin with.

ChaosThiefJun 26, 20171 votes

Lockdown supports tend to be more helpful than just knockup supports in my experience. Thresh, Blitzcrank, and Nautilus are obvious picks, leona can work as well. Alistar is also a great one to have.

It also takes patience and coordination with both players. Yasuo needs to know how and when to go in with his support, and his support needs to know as well.

BrascusJun 25, 20171 votes

If ranged autos were soft locked, would that give melees a decent chance not to get poked out by default?

This way early game for marksmen would be weaker but they would still scale very well into late because AS would make it easier to hit moving targets.

Or how about before making sweeping changes, start off a new marksmen champ that uses soft lock AA's

PrinceOfStormsJun 26, 20171 votes

only 3 marksmen were meta

That's 3 marksmen too many.

BârdJun 26, 20171 votes

Marksmen are meta for one reason: efficiency.

AD is the most efficient damage source for both pushing towers and killing champions.

Basic attack DPS via AD scales multiplicitively with AS and Crit, so giving up even one or two damage items will make you fall behind a glass cannon's DPS by a large margin.

So, the best builds for killing shit are glass cannons with AD, Crit, and AS (and armor pen in most cases).

While Marksmen are not the only champions who can use these builds (Yi, Yasuo, GP) they are the only ones who can use those builds to deal high amounts of reliable, and more importantly, SAFE damage.

A Yi can absolutely do more damage than a Vayne, but a glass cannon in the middle of the enemy team isn't nearly as safe as a glass cannon doing 90% of his damage from behind a Braum.

An Irelia or Darius can absolutely do enough damage to kill the entire enemy team, but they have huge weaknesses. If they get CC'd, they WILL get kited. Also, because they need to build multiple tank items in order to not pop in teamfights, their damage falls off in comparison to more traditional marksmen.

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