Can pantheon be given more counterplay?

Xavanic·Apr 7, 2017·17 votes·2,186 views

Outside of playing a ranged champion in top lane...

47 Comments

AlienPrimateApr 7, 20178 votes

Sustain champion?

Aatrox Chogath Olaf Tryndamere Trundle XinZhao Yorick Zac Warwick

XavanicApr 7, 20174 votes

First of all...who in the fuck would play warwick or zac top...secondly sustain doesn't help you when your sitting under your tower and pantheon is between you and your minions

CannonLordFreedApr 7, 20176 votes

Wanna know a good way to get people to want to help you? By not being a dick to them. It's one thing to ask for help dealing with a champion you struggle with, but to be so rude and disdainful towards someone who offers advice isn't exactly... becoming...

XavanicApr 7, 20174 votes

I'm not trying to, but this suggestion was outright stupid....my problem with pantheon is when I play a melee champ I can't go near my minions because hes zoning me, generally the outcome is always the same, I enter lane, try to farm, get level 1 ganked by the jungler (resulting in me burning my flash) and from that point on the lane belongs to pantheon

Moooose3Apr 7, 20173 votes

Warwick top is actually played all the time. lol good try though

XavanicApr 7, 20172 votes

I've played it twice, got banned for trolling because I was playing warwick top...

Moooose3Apr 7, 20175 votes

I'm fairly positive that isn't why you were banned.

XavanicApr 7, 20172 votes

It really was, I am not toxic during my games as it accomplishes nothing, so unless not getting a kill in lane is a bannable offense

ChønklordApr 7, 20173 votes

I am not toxic during my games as it accomplishes nothing

You didn't say you didn't use chat at all, though....

What's "not toxic" to you, most definitely is actually toxic/griefing/harassment, hence your ban.

There's no way you'd be banned for "just playing WW top", unless you combined it with toxic chat and/or intentionally feeding.

XavanicApr 7, 20172 votes

generally in those games i would go like 4/3 or 3/4, I was never once toxic (I barely even used chat other then to say my team needed to build armor or their over-extending), and I received a ban for negative attitude i believe it was

Moooose3Apr 7, 20173 votes

So then you had a negative attitude then and weren't banned for trolling. You might be slow.

nachocheeseeeeeApr 7, 20174 votes

His main weakness is that he falls off late game harder than most top laners, but of course at the cost of having one of the most powerful top laning phase. If you manage to survive the early game and avoid giving him kills for him to snowball you pretty much done your job to beat him later. As a Nasus top, I normally start with Spirit Fire and a item 1056 to get some farm and poke. I know it slows me down from stacking Siphoning Strike, but either way Nasus builds armor with cdr. Pantheon would either have to counter build me to win the lane instead of going the typical lethality build to snowball, but if it gets to a point he can't kill me, since Wither destroys most AD champs, he pretty much becomes irrelevant. I think Sion may also do well against him since he can stack HP infinitely but I'm not quite sure on that. I know old Shen used to do well against him too, but now I don't know. Maybe Chogath would be a good option too. He has range and sustain and is more disruptive plus he stacks health making it harder for Pantheon to assassinate.

XavanicApr 7, 20171 votes

The problem is when it is a good pantheon he doesn't have time to fall off as their usually ending around the 18-22 minute mark, due to pantheon being so massive due to his unopposed laning phase

AnidanApr 8, 20171 votes

Then what you do is wait for his inevitable rework and support ideas people propose that could elongate the game so your odds of Riot maybe implementing some of them is increased and the games go on long enough for a late-game to exist.

Or you pick champions that attempt to sustain regardless and don't bank on a huge early presence, like the aforementioned Nasus, Sion, Cho'gath... Karma top can also do well against him because she can harass him and she sustains herself fairly well with shields and heals, and with her root she's not bad with a gank either. Even better if she happens upon a blue buff given to her but obviously don't bank on that in top lane. Then you have someone like Swain who has good sustain and can keep himself going and will outscale Pantheon pretty quickly. There's options, they just aren't all the most obvious options. He doesn't like high sustain champions, and he isn't a fan of tanks that scale as the game goes on because they become an insurmountable obstacle to him--bonus points for the scaling tank because his team will probably blame him for not keeping you down.

Mecha MaIphiteApr 7, 20173 votes

he needs a rework tbh

"sit under tower with cloth and wait for him to be useless" is getting old

ChønklordApr 8, 20171 votes

They should change his W to something like Lee Sin's Q

TheJakeinatorApr 7, 20172 votes

yeah it's called armor

XavanicApr 7, 20171 votes

Nah....when hes level 8 and your level 3 armor isn't gonna help you, have you ever laned against pantheon? once he hits level 3 he can 100-0 you (which just by the nature of his kit and how it works, your prob only level 1 or 2 by this point) and since junglers don't exist anymore, your kinda fucked

TheJakeinatorApr 7, 20174 votes

If at any point your laner is 5 levels ahead of you, then you need to delete your account.

Her is a list of melee champions that win vs Pantheon. Akali Aatrox Camille Chogath Darius DrMundo Ekko Fiora Fizz Galio Gnar Gragas Illaoi Irelia Jax Jayce Malphite Maokai Nautilus Olaf Poppy Renekton Shen Singed Sion TahmKench Trundle Volibear

Asayake 5150glowApr 7, 20172 votes

{quoted}

If at any point your laner is 5 levels ahead of you, then you need to delete your account.

Her is a list of melee champions that win vs Pantheon.

WTF WHY IS FIORA IN THAT LIST.

The others, perhaps (although I'd say Darius loses this one due to Panth's passive absolutely fucking his stacks, but Pantheon is the best hard counter to Fiora ever. Playing Fiora against Panth is learning that war isn't dueling.

AwhegarkApr 7, 20172 votes

Debatable I have won against pantheon many times with fiora, you can counter his stun with your W.

Asayake 5150glowApr 7, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Debatable I have won against pantheon many times with fiora, you can counter his stun with your W.

Only if he's dumb enough to not 1) use his stun when Riposte is down, or 2) use his stun in pointblank range where it is literally impossible to react too, although the second one can be mindgamed.

The fact is Pantheon doesn't need to W in order to win a duel against Fiora unless there is a cannon minion nearby (in which case it won't help much either). If Fiora wants to fight Pantheon early game, she needs to tank his entire minion wave in order to do so, combined with Fiora's only moderate-above average DPS means that's impossible. Especially if Panth is running DFT, although Tlords is fine too.

And if she doesn't bully you out early game, or at least zone you, then you will bully her out to the point where she either Ripostes your Q, takes 1/3 of her health in damage, or gives up every last CS.

The only real counterplay available to either of them is to utilize the cannon minions to proc Panth's passive.

AwhegarkApr 8, 20171 votes

I have never seen this happen. I imagine fiora with cloth armor has more than enough armor to make sure pantheon thinks twice before wasting his entire mana bar by level 3. Pantheon Q harrass dosn't work on champions with okay defenses, your mana would go down so quickly that you will be forced out of lane. Also pantheons W animation is so slow that you can counter it even at point blank.

Asayake 5150glowApr 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I have never seen this happen. I imagine fiora with cloth armor has more than enough armor to make sure pantheon thinks twice before wasting his entire mana bar by level 3. Pantheon Q harrass dosn't work on champions with okay defenses, your mana would go down so quickly that you will be forced out of lane. Also pantheons W animation is so slow that you can counter it even at point blank.

Well, that's what happens every single time someone picks Fiora when I wanna play her. Which is kinda often - Fiora's my second main.

Pantheon Q harass completely destroys a Fiora without Cloth. Haven't played against one with cloth though. DFT would make it not matter though.

Panth's W is nearly instant at point blank range, you don't know what you're talking about. It's like old Gragas ult - it's cast time is based on distance traveled.

XavanicApr 7, 20171 votes

All it takes is for pantheon to get a little bit ahead and you might aswell sit under tower (legit only won lane that game because i was playing kennen) but pantheon has too much dominance once he gets ahead, as theirs no real way to outplay him due to his very linear kit, forcing even the most skilled players to tower hug while panth freezes the lane

vodrio12Apr 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If at any point your laner is 5 levels ahead of you, then you need to delete your account.

Her is a list of melee champions that win vs Pantheon.

what? akali? as a jax main panth is one of my biggest nigthmares.... hard counter. same playing as irelia!

CµpcakkeApr 12, 20181 votes

(posting on an old comment i know)

Fiora does not counter Panteon. His W happenes almost instantly, his passive blocks fioras passive, he can poke her down.

NinjaGuy69Apr 7, 20172 votes

Outside of playing a ranged champion in top lane...

Some of the Rioters have already said they intend to rework him when they update the divers. I do agree though that he needs some work done. He's too much of a point-and-click champ, which is why I'm pretty sure they're going to try and make him more mechanically challenging in his eventual update.

TusutakiApr 7, 20172 votes

Sustain champs.

Armor

Tanks

Potions

And most of all, picking Pantheon is a counterplay itself.

XavanicApr 7, 20171 votes

First of all I hate pantheons design, I won't play champs that I dislike the design of (only like 10 champs in the game I won't play) secondly, my problem is the fact then whenever I see pantheon, it generally means I'm gonna get ganked by level 1 or 2, which usually results in pantheon getting a lead and myself being forced to tower hug because of that lead, and with how easy it is to shred armor now a days stacking armor doesn't do much when your behind, as he will just build a BC and last whisper item and make your 6k gold worth of armor equal to about 1.2k gold worth of it.

He needs to be azir'd until he is reworked as I don't want to have to take a ranged champion top lane just to be able to farm (like legit, darius and riven have more counterplay then pantheon)

TusutakiApr 7, 20172 votes

So in other words, you just answered your own question. Dont get ganked by lvl 1 or 2.

And the thing with Panth is that it doesnt matter if he gets fed and you lose lane. If you pick a tank like champ then you will be fine as you outscale him. He is the literal definition of win lane lose game type of champ.

When I say picking Pantheon is a counter play onto itself, I mean that and this is coming from someone who loved Pantheon and played him mid back then.

VivaLaKittenApr 7, 20172 votes

he's a lane bully

he falls off late game he has a hard time coming back and he doesn't fair well in most heavy cc team fights

he's just a skirmisher / bully Fiora Graves Renekton Tryndamere Yasuo Jayce Irelia

XavanicApr 7, 20171 votes

See, Renekton Jayce Darius Yasuo Fiora Graves Tryndamere Irelia actually feel like you could have done something to outplay their bullying, pantheon literally has no skills shots, plus with his crit and ignite there is no cheesing it away with 20ish hp

VivaLaKittenApr 7, 20172 votes

Renekton's stun is applied by auto attacking Fiora has crit poking, dashing, and an ability that blocks anything (this depends on the Fiora, not you, that's not counterplay, that's just the Fiora messing up) Yasuo gets a free poke every two Q's that stuns you Darius has bleed that does more damage then ignite (not fully stacked), a spin to poke, a pull, and a slow, as well as a ult with decent range that's nearly immune to cc Tryndamere has immunity to death Irelia can freely jump to you and insta stun

Pantheon early game damage is extremely low unless you build full ad on him also, why do you have a problem with pantheon when talon exists? Talon does the same thing only HE CAN USE HIS ULT in skirmishes as well as having a much easier and faster way to escape

XavanicApr 7, 20171 votes

Renekton has to get in melee range in order to even use his stun, and champs like jax/shen can just dodge it, plus its CD is very long early game Fiora is skill based, Yasuos q is easy to dodge, plus all his dmg is AA based Darius is INSANELY weak to anyone with a mobility skill (kled, renekton, fiora, riven, etc.) Tryndamere is annoying, but his only dmg comes from aaing, Irelia is pretty much the same thing as tryndamere, but a weaker early game

Asayake 5150glowApr 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Renekton's stun is applied by auto attacking Fiora has crit poking, dashing, and an ability that blocks anything (this depends on the Fiora, not you, that's not counterplay, that's just the Fiora messing up)

I don't see how this means there's no counterplay?

Yasuo gets a free poke every two Q's that stuns you

Dodgable

Darius has bleed that does more damage then ignite (not fully stacked), a spin to poke, a pull, and a slow, as well as a ult with decent range that's nearly immune to cc

Spin is dodgable, if you have dissengage then it's good. It's dependent on the Darius's skill, though. And your model size.

Tryndamere has immunity to death

Counterplayable.

Irelia can freely jump to you and insta stun

She can jump to you if there's a nearly dead minion near you (if her Q will kill the minion) and she will stun you if her %health is equal to or lower than yours. Renekton can freely jump to you and insta stun. Irelia can't.

Pantheon early game damage is extremely low unless you build full ad on him

Hellll no.

also, why do you have a problem with pantheon when talon exists?

True.

Talon does the same thing only HE CAN USE HIS ULT in skirmishes as well as having a much easier and faster way to escape

True.

PermabannedGarenApr 7, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Outside of playing a ranged champion in top lane...

Don't bother playing a ranged champion top lane. He beats most of those too.

The best way to beat Pantheon is with a mage who can harass him and stop him from all-inning them:

Swain Karma Rumble

Or a safe laner who can patiently outscale him:

Malphite Sion Singed (though Singed it's more like he just proxies his lane and abuses Pantheon's lack of sustain and huge mana costs for his waveclear)

Malphite is probably the counter I use most, since, even with CS lead, once Malphite gets his sunfire cape Pantheon can't 1v1 him. Malphite will stomp all over him.

XavanicApr 7, 20172 votes

I dunno about the tanks. I never considered swain because i forgot he exists, rumble gets bullied out too hard....and...karma...top?

PermabannedGarenApr 7, 20173 votes

{quoted}

I dunno about the tanks. I never considered swain because i forgot he exists, rumble gets bullied out too hard....and...karma...top?

Rumble is harder to play into the match-up, but if you play it right you out-push him, constantly harass him, and outscale him.

Karma top is fairly legit, as either a mage or as a cancer tank (I'm serious).

Ariel the CruelApr 8, 20171 votes

Tank Karma is cancer? Since when? All she brings to the table is the ability to never die. (>_>)

LyingOnLineApr 7, 20171 votes

If he had counterplay, he wouldn't be Tumortheon.

XavanicApr 7, 20171 votes

Alot of people seem to think its as easy as playing a sustain champ or outscaling him....but obviously they haven't played against a decent pantheon

FiddlesOnTheRoofApr 7, 20171 votes

his counterplay is that he's worthless once whoever you're playing hits level 6

XavanicApr 7, 20171 votes

sigh, people don't seem to understand the issue im having is once he gets the slightest lead theres no way to outplay him

Ariel the CruelApr 8, 20171 votes

Sorry, I'm just a filthy support main. And when I do go top, it's with Soraka, Morgana, Lulu, or the like.

But excluding my odd-ball picks, aren't most top lane match-ups like this?

AkaliholicApr 9, 20171 votes

Nope. Panth is especially absurd because his harass is brutal and impossible to avoid and his "chunk your entire healthbar" combo is guaranteed. He literally deletes you from the lane if he gets ahead and you are playing one of the many champs that he counters. Cant even farm under turret thanks to his passive allowing him to not even care about your turret.

Ariel the CruelApr 8, 20171 votes

Can Teemo be given any counter-play? (Not to be confused with counter-build.) (Also not to be confused with calling him strong/weak.)