Mage class lacking mechanical diversity/versatility

Valhalla Rising·Nov 2, 2019·12 votes·8,855 views

E.g. Veigar fun to play once then meh. I mean, his passive is just flat ap gains, his 2 basic damaging ability's are very hard to land on non-cc'd target's, and his ult is obviously basic af. Imo his entire kit is just his stun then press other buttons accordingly.

another example would be syndra, obviously powerful but one dimensional, keep spamming spheres, try to land same stun combo over and over, follow up with point click r when applicable..

at least champs like azir or neeko have tons of versatility and out-pay potential.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be easy champs, i'm just saying the mage category has fallen behind the mechanical curve(aren't' mages supposed to be intellectually superior? XD jk)

p.s. revert Zyra

80 Comments

Ahri BakaNov 2, 20198 votes

Agreed. Mages became really boring to play. especially with how the meta is , especially in mid lane. Ahri ? boring Lux ? few games then gets boring Annie ? boring by nature Cassiopeia ? really sad to play when mid lane is full of champions that counter her , tho she is not boring by design , she is one of the most enjoyable mages , but the meta forces her to be boring Ziggs He sucks in this meta Swain Very interesting but Thanks to mobility , his E feels so bad , let's not talk about W. Karthus he is a jungler now Taliyah with the removal of her Aoe on q , I dropped playing her , she was really one of my favourite champions .. Zyra ?Ever since her preseason 8 rework , she became so boring Malzahar Brain dead push waves , press R if you can get in range or R flash , boring Neeko Fun , but dude in mid lane everyone has dashes that you can't even land ult Lol TwistedFate Fun , but weak. Zoe I don't approve of this thing as a Mage. Orianna Kinda fun in mid game , But I just can't find success with her , Either I suck at playing her or she is just meh , I can't keep up with roams and stuff etc..

My champion pool has changed lately and I mostly play Yasuo Zed , Used to play Talon but kinda dropped him for some reason. My name has Ahri literally in it but I don't even play her that much , even in Urf , Played her 1 game out of 80 games , and my second main Lux , didn't play her for a long time , completely dropped her. PS : FUCK item 3155 another PS : Boring does not equal weak.

LightswornLanceNov 2, 20195 votes

If you get to say fuck item 3155 I get to say fuck item 3191 . P.S. They do effectively the same thing except seekers armguard is 200 gold less because mage items.

Ahri BakaNov 2, 201911 votes

{quoted}

If you get to say fuck I get to say fuck . P.S. They do effectively the same thing except seekers armguard is 200 gold less because mage items.

The thing is , you can say fuck item 3191 , but does not make a mage immortal ,they will reduce the damage only , you can still poke then in all. as for item 3155 , a Mage can't do anything they get all in-ed , they can't kill the enemy because Assassins are better at all ins , and Unlike assassins , Mages need mana , so first item really does put them at a disadvatnage , and buying it second item after item 3802 means the enemy enemy assassin will have item 3134 item 3133 or might even complate item 3147 if the enemy assassin got a kill earlier whether it's from the enemy laner ( since the enemy mage only had ) or by roaming.

LightswornLanceNov 2, 20193 votes

So mages should just get to sacrifice nothing and have everything? And people wonder how mages became the strongest class... It's not like item 3155 builds into one of the worst items in the game and item 3191 builds into literally the best or anything...

Ahri BakaNov 2, 20193 votes

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Acemaster81Nov 3, 20193 votes

What else can mages build into AD assassins to not get shredded by high damage?

MogarlNov 3, 20192 votes

Seekers builds into one of the best items, but the only component item that might be worse is item 2015 . On the other hand hexdrinker is one of the better component items in the game, and Maw is shit to compensate.

Also, mages aren't the best. Mid AD carries are the worst. AD carries are present in another lane in almost all games. Ad carries are dominant picks in top, jungle, and bot. In addition when tanks pickrates go down while it's good for assassins it also increases the value of mages since they will be the primary utility of your team outside of the support.

For Mid AD carries to not be the worst you need utility, non-single target damage, and magic damage to be supplied by other lanes commonly.

LightswornLanceNov 3, 20191 votes

Seekers has a god damn ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY cost efficiency it has literally the highest cost efficiency in the game. It is the best build component any item could possibly have. Wtf do you mean by Mid ADC? The only midlane adc is yasuo, the only reason others are sometimes played in mid is because they got kicked out by the mage that is in botlane. Counting Graves and Kindred as "dominant picks" in the jungle is just stupid. Wait, your trolling me arent you.

MogarlNov 3, 20192 votes

The value of the stats on Seekers once fully stacked is 1335 before it's stacked it's 1035. The item itself is worth 1100. that's just a little over 120% at best and is slightly below 100% at worst.

Hexdrinker is worth 1330 without the passive and costs 1300. The passive just has to be worth 266 or more for hexdrinker's gold efficiency to be even or greater. Plus it gets that value from the beginning.

Of course who knows how out dated the "gold values" are on the wiki. If you have a better source (which I assume you must have a different source at least since your listed gold value is wildly off) then I would love to see it.

And when I said ad carry I was including assassins who build ad and carry. if they can't even be called a carry when they take in a bunch of gold and sacrifice utility for the team then that's just another reason they are the worst role.

LightswornLanceNov 3, 20192 votes

Amplifying Tome - 435 gold - 20 AP Cloth Armor - 300 Gold - 15 Armor Seekers Armguard - 1100 Gold - 45 Armor 35 AP 435 x 1.75 = 761.25 300 x 3 = 900 Gold Value = 1661.25 1661.25 / 1100 = 151% It's stupid players like you which are why NA can not advance as a region. Stop trolling, and stop replying.

MogarlNov 4, 20191 votes

Where are you getting 35 ap on Seekers? It's 20 ap. Clearly I'm not the moron when you can't read, and add 326.25 gold value from 15 ap that doesn't exist.

LightswornLanceNov 4, 20191 votes

The passive, you MonkeyKing main

MogarlNov 4, 20191 votes

So you're right that it reaches 150% efficiency after farming 6 waves of minions. Hexdrinker is still better than it for at least 3 minutes.

Aside from this dispute I would like to apologize for my previous comment. I was rude and I was incorrect. Thank you for correcting me.

Acemaster81Nov 3, 20193 votes

So mages have only 1 armor item that builds into an item that gives AP from what I know. So if seeker's is removed, what can a mage build against a Zed or Talon? While assassin champions can still build Hexdrinker. How is that balanced at all?

LightswornLanceNov 4, 20192 votes

Who said it should be removed? The cost should either go up 200 so its the same as hexdrinker or it's stats should be lowered.

Acemaster81Nov 4, 20191 votes

Or, perhaps it could use a new item path that gives AP and resistances. Though the stasis passive on hourglass is powerful if certain assassins can jump on you and delete you quickly. It's sort of your only option, especially in uncoordinated play. If stasis was removed it may bring a need for certain comps or new defensive items. If it sucks to play against then the interactions between assassin champions and their squishy targets may need to looked at. Either nerfing damage, introducing better, healthier items against assassins, reworking armor pen or magic pen, buffing armor and mr, anything to keep assassins viable at doing their job, but in a way that players are not having to sacrifice too much or build items with debatably op actives just to survive.

LordGeovanniNov 21, 20191 votes

Why should it cost as much as hexdrinker when it has so much better stats.

LordGeovanniNov 21, 20191 votes

You can build armor items the same thing fighters build because they have no armor ad item to build. item 3026 exists but has been nerfed so hard only healing base hp and has bad stats for a melee champion who has to be in close thus take more damage and also has to do damage. (so only adcs can take it.) if Zhonyas looked like Ga stat wise it would have 40 armor and 55 ap no cdr and the item cooldown would be trippled If not quintupled because the zhonyas effect is so much more useful. mages would cry to no end and talk about how the item is unuseable

Acemaster81Nov 22, 20191 votes

I think the fact that there is a complete lack of other options when it comes to armor and AD/AP is a problem in itself. I would love such items for AurelionSol as I would prefer to have resistances and sustain when playing him. I get the impression that I'm meant to be close to use his stars but mobility and range wear Sol down really quickly. An alternative to item 3157 would help me out and open up more possibilities for AP bruisers. Diana and Sylas come to mind.

LordGeovanniDec 6, 20191 votes

frankly mages would be busted with more armor and ap. they would need to give up burst and cooldown windows but they never want to do either or have mana costs reflecting the damage they do or effects those same high damage spells have. mana costs would scale up with power rather than down with most if it was actually balanced for balance sake and not for one shot sake.

Acemaster81Dec 7, 20191 votes

Well, that is exactly what I have in mind give those items less Ability power, or just adjust all items that give ap accordingly.

LordGeovanniDec 7, 20191 votes

what im saying is that it wont work unless you do a mass rebalnce across their kits and or items. just making the one item have less ap on it won't make it so that they arent bursting people in 2 rounds if they have mr and 1 if they dont. as they usually 80% a persons hp through mr (no pen) who has to build damage magic resist and armor and they have a 3 second down time after their last spell has fired. you lower their ap they go from 80% to 75-65% you still 2 shotting people in a rotation without ults and most mages have a first goes out CC nuke spell that insures the other spells hit so hurr durr skill shots but you also negate it the counter play by landing 1 spell. that you can spam on low cooldown and low mana cost with a massive mana pool. I feel like non ult Combos should do much less damage and at the same time dps classes also lower their damage and we get better defensive options aka slow down the game.

LordGeovanniNov 2, 20192 votes

So mages cant poke then all in when The enemy is low enough to burst through the tiny 200 hp shield with their easily 500 damage spells lowered to 400 when you factor in average base magic resist and the magic resist you get from the item

Ahri BakaNov 2, 20195 votes

{quoted}

So mages cant poke then all in when The enemy is low enough to burst through the tiny 200 hp shield with their easily 500 damage spells lowered to 400 when you factor in average base magic resist and the magic resist you get from the item

You don't poke in mid lane , in the current mid lane , it's a meta of all ins , whenever you reach lane , you either all in or get all in-ed , so no , Mages can't all in an assassin with MR.

LightswornLanceNov 3, 20192 votes

I'm just gonna point out the obvious, it's much easier for a ranged mage to poke a melee assassin. Also something I noticed alot from mage players is they don't optimally punish the enemy after they walk away from a failed all in or trade. The assassin just spams all their abilities then walk away unharmed after taking 50% of the mages health for free. You should be auto attacking the whole time the assassin is walking away and walking up waiting for your skills to come off cool down. Mage players just typically let themselves get walked on instead of punishing their opponent for burning cooldowns. If a yasuo wastes his windwall thats 26 seconds you get to zone him from the wave for free and he cant do anything about it. Same if a zed wastes his W or if he uses Q to cs or poke. Thats 6 or so seconds you can use to force him to W then you have 20 seconds before he can W again.

Also, about what you said at the end. A mage can't all in an assassin with mr, and the same goes for an assassin all ining a mage with armor.

Ahri BakaNov 3, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I'm just gonna point out the obvious, it's much easier for a ranged mage to poke a melee assassin. Also something I noticed alot from mage players is they don't optimally punish the enemy after they walk away from a failed all in or trade. The assassin just spams all their abilities then walk away unharmed after taking 50% of the mages health for free. You should be auto attacking the whole time the assassin is walking away and walking up waiting for your skills to come off cool down. Mage players just typically let themselves get walked on instead of punishing their opponent for burning cooldowns. If a yasuo wastes his windwall thats 26 seconds you get to zone him from the wave for free and he cant do anything about it. Same if a zed wastes his W or if he uses Q to cs or poke. Thats 6 or so seconds you can use to force him to W then you have 20 seconds before he can W again.

Also, about what you said at the end. A mage can't all in an assassin with mr, and the same goes for an assassin all ining a mage with armor.

Honestly , I would even send you a video of Zed all inning a Mage with 80% HP and Seekers getting all inned by a Zed with Dirk and dies.

LightswornLanceNov 3, 20191 votes

Send away.

Anxious VeigarNov 3, 20191 votes

You don't understand, in the current meta mid is push and roam because if you play against something like Qiyana or Zed, trying to poke will instantly result into them getting on top of you because of the mobility creep.

Vlad Ex Ig 0 PotNov 3, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Baka,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f1rmXved,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2019-11-02T20:48:42.375+0000)

You don't poke in mid lane , in the current mid lane , it's a meta of all ins , whenever you reach lane , you either all in or get all in-ed , so no , Mages can't all in an assassin with MR.

THIS. It's litteraly League of Deathmatch.

Beacon AcademyNov 3, 20195 votes

Imagine trying to argue that skillshots are naturally stronger than kits with mobility.

LordGeovanniNov 21, 20191 votes

imagine that Because i sure am not doing that. But skill shots do get over compensated in damage for arbitrary i want to one shot waves late game which is why you cant end games versus these mage champions but allies refuse to dive them before the wave reaches the tower because then they would have to learn to dodge skill shots while fighting and under a time constraint. Damage doesnt have the proper cooldown cost it should for damage out put nor proper damage cost for cooldown uptime. Mobility also doesnt have long enough cooldowns for what it allows. For what yasou's E does his entire champion should have half the damage it does (im not saying its gonna be good or playable but thats how strong half second cooldown dash e is ) For tristannas W she should have 1/3rd less damage and and tripple the cooldown and mana cost for her W.

LordGeovanniNov 2, 20195 votes

fuk item 3155 aka. I cant Keep a puny damage specific shield In mind.

Everyone mid lane has dashes so you cant land ult. Looks at the entire list like those sure look like mid laners to me but i may be mistaken.

DalekZecNov 3, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Baka,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f1rmXved,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-02T17:52:22.182+0000)

Agreed. Mages became really boring to play. especially with how the meta is , especially in mid lane. ? boring ? few games then gets boring ? boring by nature ? really sad to play when mid lane is full of champions that counter her , tho she is not boring by design , she is one of the most enjoyable mages , but the meta forces her to be boring He sucks in this meta Very interesting but Thanks to mobility , his E feels so bad , let's not talk about W. he is a jungler now with the removal of her Aoe on q , I dropped playing her , she was really one of my favourite champions .. ?Ever since her preseason 8 rework , she became so boring Brain dead push waves , press R if you can get in range or R flash , boring Fun , but dude in mid lane everyone has dashes that you can't even land ult Lol Fun , but weak. I don't approve of this thing as a Mage. Kinda fun in mid game , But I just can't find success with her , Either I suck at playing her or she is just meh , I can't keep up with roams and stuff etc..

My champion pool has changed lately and I mostly play , Used to play but kinda dropped him for some reason. My name has Ahri literally in it but I don't even play her that much , even in Urf , Played her 1 game out of 80 games , and my second main Lux , didn't play her for a long time , completely dropped her. PS : FUCK another PS : Boring does not equal weak.

The fact that you forgot this squid Velkoz IS SO FUCKING TRIGGERING.

I'll leave the opinion to you because since I'm a Vel'Koz main I'll probably be biased and go Doctor style and say "Lazer. Lazers are cool!".

BLIGHTBRINGERNov 2, 20197 votes

There are certain Mages who are slightly designed differently instead of being afk farming bots.

Cassiopeia - A deadly Mage Duelist Azir - DPS Mage who thrives in good teamfights Fiddlesticks - Ambush Mage

And most of the mentioned Mages don't exactly have the best waveclearing ability, they can still clear them okay but not as well as someone like Ahri who presses 1 Q and the whole wave is dead.

My own personal issue with them is that the whole itemazation situation is bad, which again can also be said about every class because everyone always builds the same items.

LordGeovanniNov 21, 20191 votes

There are certain Mages who are slightly designed differently ~~instead of~~ In addition to being afk farming bots.

- A deadly Mage Duelist - DPS Mage who thrives in good teamfights - Ambush Mage

And most of the mentioned Mages don't exactly have the best waveclearing ability, they can still clear them okay but not as well as someone like Ahri who presses 1 Q and the whole wave is dead.

Cass presses q on the front q on the back q on the front and walks away. helps when you have a 2 second q

Azir WW Q auto auto all in less than 2 seconds and the wave is gone because of high ap ratios along with high attack speed.

Fiddle can bounce his E twice but its not really good wave clear until super late not just late lane phase like the other 2

ZT XperimentorNov 2, 20196 votes

Aurelionsol & swain used to stand out until riot reworked them. And now fiddle is in the line up for reworking . . . I hope they never rework morgana, orianna & syndra.

Acemaster81Nov 3, 20191 votes

Aurelion is still different imo, but his rework removed the toggle and his high mana costs. Sol didn't need more damage or burst. I like the idea of a dps mage. AurelionSol Azir Cassiopeia

ZT XperimentorNov 3, 20191 votes

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-917-notes#patch-aurelionsol Also nerfed him early game when he's already weakest, and they tacked on more mobility in sacrifice for his toggle, which was unanimously disliked among mains. Frustratingly similar to mordekaiser's initial rework that screwed up his identity and gameplay meta that also spited those who played him most. https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-516-notes#patch-mordekaiser What's next, removing singed's toggle but making it on a half second cooldown so you have to keep pushing the button to leave a poison trail? Dps mages should have some reliable constant threat because that's the point.

P0IS0N IVYNov 2, 20195 votes

p.s. revert Zyra

Yes pls rito

Acemaster81Nov 3, 20191 votes

I don't know what Zyra used to be like. Could you explain?

Valhalla RisingNov 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I don't know what Zyra used to be like. Could you explain?

removed her old undead passive that was a true damage aoe skillshot for random spawning plant gimmick, her old q was better shape and damage, and her plants had a little more power/duration as well.

thefatlazycatNov 2, 20194 votes

Most mages are meant to be two-dimensional, they're long range and safe as a main design quality, there are a few exceptions where the player needs to take risks like Azir AurelionSol Taliyah Swain Anivia Orianna , but they're mainly meant to be two dimensional

Acemaster81Nov 3, 20192 votes

How would they be two dimensional? Could you explain how all mages but my main Sol and your examples don't have much to them?

The thigh guyNov 2, 20193 votes

I think you’re just wrong here. Ahri Azir Cassiopeia Elise Karthus Kennen Leblanc (if you count her) Lux Morgana Orianna Vladimir Malzahar Sylas Zoe Zyra

None of these mages play even close to the same.

nachocheeseeeeeNov 3, 20193 votes

Ahri Diving / Burst Mage with Assassin qualties from her ult Anivia Control / Burst Mage with some decent DoT quality from her ult Annie Burst Mage with some DoT quality from Tibbers. AurelionSol Diving / DoT Mage with some decent Burst quality from his ult Azir Marksman / Control / Diving Mage (used to be Artillery too, but that just goes to show how overloaded he was) Burst Mage with some decent DoT quality Cassiopeia Marksman / DoT Mage with some decent Zone Control qualities Fiddlesticks Diving / DoT Mage Heimerdinger Control / DoT Mage with some Burst quality Karma Burst / Utility Mage Karthus Diving / DoT Mage with some Burst quality from ult Kennen Diving / Burst Mage Leblanc Diving / Burst Mage (really an Assassin with Mage qualities) Lissandra Diving / Burst Mage with some decent Zone Control quality with her passive, W and Ult Lux Artillery / Burst Mage with some Utility quality from her shield Malzahar DoT Mage with some decent Zone Control quality from his silence and infected minions Morgana Utility / DoT Mage with some Burst, Zone Control and Diving qualities Neeko Burst Mage with some decent Diving qualities Orianna Burst / Utility Mage with some decent Zone Control qualities Rumble DoT Mage with some decent Zone Control from his ult Ryze Marksman Mage with some decent Burst, Zone Control, and Utility qualities from his ult and charged minions Swain Diving / DoT Mage with some decent Burst and Artillery qualities Syndra Burst Mage with some decent Zone Control quality from her scattered balls Taliyah Control / Burst Mage with some decent DoT quality TwistedFate Burst / Diving Mage with some decent Artillery qualities from his long range cards Veigar Burst Mage with some Control quality with his Event Horizon Velkoz Artillery Mage with some Burst and DoT quality Viktor Burst Mage with some Zone Control and DoT qualities Vladimir Diving / Burst Mage Xerath Aritillery Mage with some Burst quality Ziggs Artillery Mage with some Zone Control and Burst Quality Zoe Burst / Artillery Mage Zyra Control / Burst Mage with some DoT quality

LightswornLanceNov 4, 20192 votes

It's DPS mage DoT mage just sounds and looks weird. Also in effect most of those champs are similar. They just cast balls of stats at you.

nachocheeseeeeeNov 5, 20191 votes

DPS stands for Damage per Second, which is a rate of measuring damage at a given span of time. For example, one can say that Zoe has a higher DPS than Fiddlesticks in the span of 2 seconds, as she can dish out more damage in 2 seconds due to the burst nature of her kit. But if we take into account the full damage combo (assuming both have around the same AP), Fiddle will dish more damage in a wider time frame, so his DPS will be higher. DPS is not a form of damage. It is a measurment of the rate of damage.

DoT stands for Damage Over Time, which means that it is an ability that deals damage over a prolonged period of time. In other words, sustained damage. Burst damage, on the other hand, instantaneously deals damage, removing a huge chunk the enemy's hp. Meanwhile, DoT deals lower damage per second (lower DPS in short time frame), but accumulation of its damage ticks can add up to higher levels of damage output than burst damage (so higher DPS in longer time frame).

Abilities like Cassiopeia's Twin Fang wouldn't be considered DoT as it is a targetable spammed spell, that basically functions the same as auto attacks, whereas, DoT tends to be a single ability that is stretched over time, and suffers from cooldown similarly to burst damage.

LightswornLanceNov 5, 20191 votes

Whether or not its a damage over time spell doesnt matter, what matters is if its does burst damage or DPS. Also Swain is definitely a burst mage, just because his ult does damage over time doesnt change anything. He has 3 spells with hefty cooldowns that do burst damage, and technically most of his ults damage is from the flare at the end.

LordGeovanniNov 2, 20192 votes

His w is hard to hit not his Q. Mages do tons of upfront damage and they completely buff out the downtime that used to come with that.

Anxious VeigarNov 3, 20192 votes

Fun is subjective, some people enjoy ADC even though I find it boring as shit because all you really do is wait until 20 minutes and just press buttons. Some people enjoy assassins, but then again some don't, but champs like Kha can be fun around to run around with. What I like about champs like Veigar and for example AP Cho is that you spread chaos, with proper placements you can kill 3 people at once, the only time I find it boring is when it's a ff15 game, but tbh who doesn't.