http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3551106
Even back then people were sick of how broken ADCs were due to them being required on every damn team composition, and Riot has done almost nothing since then to change that
The ONLY attempt they did to make ADCs optional was the joke that was Mordekaiser's rework, then they left him in the shitter.
WoonStruck17 votesIts not about ADCs being required or not. An auto-attack carry is required in pretty much every decent MOBA.
The problem with league is that RANGED ADCs are required. I'd be fine if you had to bring Yasuo bot lane with a support in order for him to be successful, or even Yi.
Part of the issue is that ranged overcomes any advantage the steroids that melees have will ever bring, and most ranged have steroids on top of that, which is not good for game health, as far as balancing between melee and ranged ADCs. Range IS their steroid. In pretty much any other game, range get utility, not additional steroids.
Another issue is that any carry that can't make it in lane has to function in the jungle to bypass their early vulnerability when it should be supports with them during laning that should cover that.
The final issue is that most hard carries can function in a solo lane by themselves. Why are Quinn, Graves, Fiora, GP, etc so potent early, mid, and late? Heavy scaling into late game means crippling early game weaknesses that force them to take 1 or 2 supports into lane with them in any other game.
Only very specific champions should be able to jungle because jungle itself should not be a forced 'lane.' 1/1/3 should be a viable strategy as well as 2/1/2, but the EXP mechanics in this game, as well as the per-level scaling are so out-of-whack that several potential strategies are squashed for no good reason.
Jungle should allow specific carries to scale that way (Nocturne, Yi, etc) while the enemy team has to actively seek to shut down their farming. Outside of that, picking a jungler should mean your team wants a gank-heavy strategy to scale into mid-game, which often means not picking super hard carries, that way they can assist better in early-mid ganks. If no jungler is picked, its your mid-laner that should be the ganker.
Junglers should not be required to have a functional game just like ranged carries should not be absolutely required, and exp cuts with multiple champions need to be addressed to fix this.
Don't think about mentioning games you've won without ADCs or junglers. We've all won gimmicky games where we snowballed too hard for it to matter if we used the most efficient set-up. There shouldn't be a most efficient set-up. All set-ups, barring empty lanes, should be viable, outside of double jungle, simply because it can't function with balanced jungle values. This is a strategy game. Why can't we start acting like it is?
AsphodelNext2 votesThe early game lane swap meta has been popular and effective, and a common variant is the 4/1/0, where both sides give up on the disadvantaged lane and have 2 people pushing a lane, 2 people jungling on the same side, one person mid, and an empty lane. Though not viable as a long-term plan, it is possible to have strategies that, for a decent period of time, leave a lane empty and have 2 junglers.
Junglers should be required because the threat of ganks prevents winning lanes from getting overly aggressive. Otherwise, there's no punishment for continuously forcing the lane into turret, since you can tell when any other laner decides to leave and back off far in advance, wasting the ganker's time. Sure, a comp with a jungler vs. one without might be interesting, but having both teams without junglers just means winning lanes continue to snowball.
hgjkdlsaf jeldvb14 votesADCs were strong before these shitty season 6 changes. Riot's too far up their own ass, but at least graves, quinn, vayne, and corki are viable flex picks so you can always have room on your team for lucian or ezreal.
Not to mention the lack of good counter items. Champ builds crit? Randuins is trash. Champ builds attack speed? Frozen heart got gutted. Deadman's is great tanky placebo that lets you run in faster to die sooner.
Did somebody say zekes? 50% crit that the adc didn't even have to build. It's like a 7th item slot on the best class in the game.
The reason melee carries work in dota is because they have active items that actually make a difference in their ability to do things. You don't cc them because of bkb. You don't kite them because of turning speed.
Well, fuck it. Time to start learning to play ADCs everywhere. Clearly they're not going anywhere, and the sooner riot sees that the diversity in their game is gone, the sooner they'll maybe think about nerfing the all powerful gods that ADCs are supposed to be.
The Bíg Ticket13 votesRiot is never gonna admit it but it is obvious they favor adcs....I remember your thread, 1k+ upvotes and no Rioter responded.
They are never gonna address the issue that picking a ranged AD into a melee champ is pretty much an autowin in lane and they have basically only buffed both the role adc aswell as the individual champs over the years (directly and indirectly). Support have become direct slaves for adcs, back then supports would build items that supported the whole team (Shurelias, Bulwark, etc..) now you have Zekes (which can be used on AP carries too but its 10 times better on an adc) and Ardent Censer which are specifically designed to give adcs even more damage without having to spend gold on it themselves.
YCitizenSnipsY5 votesWhat does 1k up votes prove when NA ranked alone has over 1 million players, let alone EUW or EUNE which is even bigger. That doesn't mean anything.
Also how do you suggest Melee's Viably lane against ADC's? Last I checked ranged is supposed to counter melee, which is why they build glass cannon and melee all get to build bruiser.
What do you want, being melee means you only take 5% of ranged damage? And how about we make them immune from CC so they can't be kited as well. And lets give everyone of them a gap closer too so they don't have to be hindered by being melee.
The Bíg Ticket6 votesNo let's just give an autowin to the player who pick the ranged champion in lane while his champ also outscales the melee simply because he is ranged. That is perfect.
YCitizenSnipsY3 votesWell according to these boards Mages should beat assassins in lane.
So which is it? Should range trump melee or vice versa?
Because if you want melees to win lane against ranged than you obviously want assassins to keep rolfstomping mages. And thats not part of the circle jerk so I'm sure you're all against that.
The Bíg Ticket5 votesRofl whats your logic?
Assassins can be ranged or melee...LB wins vs any mage in lane.
I don't want melees to win lane vs ranged, I want to be able to pick a melee champion toplane and not be forced to give up half of the creeps to my opponent just because he picked Graves, Vayne or Quinn top and everytime I try to lasthit I lose half of my hp.
YCitizenSnipsY4 votesYeah.. no. LB is the only ranged champion that can kind of be considered an assasin, Even then she builds nothing but mage items. 95% of assassin are melee, excluding LB. And this is supposedly an assassin meta where mages are really weak and assassins are wininng in lane.
On one hand the boards want melee to win vs ranged, on the other they want ranged to win vs melee.
Also you just seem to be crying about bad lane matchups in general. Can I please pick assassin into tanks and juggernauts just melt them. Can I please pick a mage into an assassin and never have to worry about being engaged on.
You don't want balance, you don't want any form of counter play to your favorite champions. So I'm gonna ask again, lets make all melee's completely viable against ranged but let them continue to build they way they do, whats their counter play now? And don't say kiting because thats next on melee mains list of things that shouldn't counter them.
The Bíg Ticket3 votesYou have no idea what you are even talking about....Assassins can be melee or ranged...Vayne's second role is assassin.
I am talking about the ranged vs melee matchup which has nothing to do with one of them being a mage/assassin/tank/fighter.
Of course ranged champs should have an advantage over melee champs in lane but we are at a point where an attempt to cs vs Quinn/Vayne/Graves top only comes at the cost of 50% of your lifebar....which leads to you sitting under your turret trying to get the tiny bit of farm you are allowed while they are rightclicking you with no risk and no risk of getting traded back on.
YCitizenSnipsY3 votesSay I don't know what I'm talking about then bring up a champions secondary role. I don't give a fuck about secondary roles, those are so inaccurate its not even funny. Most assassins are melee, especially any one with a primary tag of assassin, which are almost jokes in themselves. And none of them are having a problem in the ranged vs melee match up since the boards are so insistent that assassins are op and mages are weak.
What you're talking about is lane bullies. You have a problem with being bullied in lane, get over it. You play a melee champion then their is a pretty high chance you do shit tons of damage while being incredibly tanky. I'm sorry that ranged is such a draw back for you, I get it. You should do lots of damage, be tanky, and have no bad match ups or counter play.
Also your most played champion on this account is Jax. The nerve of you to even complain about adc's.
The Bíg Ticket3 votesLol do you really not get it? I am not talking about roles dude...I am talking about melee vs ranged. I will repeat myself again, being melee or ranged has nothing to do with being a mage/assassin/fighter/etc...
I am not talking about lane bullies, I am talking about ranged champs autowinning lane by default WHILE ALSO OUTSCALING YOU INTO LATEGAME....there are melee lane bullies like Renekton, Pantheon, Yorick, etc....all of them have in common that they absolutely suck lategame while champs like Quinn, Vayne, Graves, etc...dominate their lane and also stomp lategame just because they are ranged.
Jax has a lower winrate than basically any adc and is a trollpick at any decent elo....you must play at a very low elo if you think Jax is even remotely close to adcs in terms of strength.
Cowgirl Ed7 votes+1 Thank God though that to be effective you need (a sort of) a team and some coordination
ADCs are boring af lets be honest
Penns6 votesAdcs arent broken just because they are a staple in the game lol. They havent "destroyed competitions since Season 1", they are just needed for objectives. Thats like saying "since Season 1, there was a jungler on every team. You cant come up with a better strategy than having a jungler can you?" Do you really want the game to be balanced just around lcs? Obviously adcs are way stronger in lcs than in soloq but lcs isnt real League of Legends.
Imagine a team without a ranged adc, how are they gonna get turrets against ranged champs?
LankPants3 votessince Season 1, there was a jungler on every team. You cant come up with a better strategy than having a jungler can you?
That's because jungling is a position while ranged ADC is a role. The position equivalent would be bot lane while the role equivalent in the jungle would be things like jungle tank or jungle carry.
Imagine a team without a ranged adc, how are they gonna get turrets against ranged champs?
I'd say that's a problem that needs to be solved rather than just a fact that needs to be accepted. Maybe if there were viable ways for a more melee heavy team to dive rather than sieging cough 
cough or other alternatives like mages more tailored to bot lane we'd see other options.
Sire Hippington3 voteswell, the latest changes to dragon were an atempt to change that, ranged teams need to come out into the open to contest dragon, and if they don't you will evt reach a point where you just dive them. The problem is that range comps are also better in generall standoff scenarios and can disengage and kite vs meleecomps rather easily + dragon needs to long to scale up.
FalconPawwwwnch6 votesI've already debunked this argument many times
Jungler is not a class of champions, that's a role you play on the map that can consist of tanks/bruisers/mages/assassins/ and now even marksmen
ADCs are only played by marksmen but are still mandatory
At least you tried
Penns3 votesAdc is a role even if its just for ranged ADs. There are still poke adcs, bust/caster adcs, auto attacking adcs, aoe adcs,...
You even call the role "ADC" yourself, which means "attack damage carry". Just because it can only be played by ranged ads doesnt mean they are "broken" lol. Even when adcs were shit and basically the worst role in the game, people still played adcs bot, didnt they?
Nuparu3 votesAdc is a role even if its just for ranged ADs. There are still poke adcs, bust/caster adcs, auto attacking adcs, aoe adcs,...
You even call the role "ADC" yourself, which means "attack damage carry". Just because it can only be played by ranged ads doesnt mean they are "broken" lol. Even when adcs were shit and basically the worst role in the game, people still played adcs bot, didnt they?
Literally when have ADCs ever been shit?
There was a time where they couldn't strap a solo queue team to their back and hard carry but god damn they've never been bad lol
Penns2 votesThere were many assassin or tank metas where adc didnt do a lot..
EddardStark841 votesThere were many assassin or tank metas where adc didnt do a lot..
I find it funny that you are being down voted despite being the only one here speaking honestly and truthfully on adc balance. Thankfully Riot won't take this silly thread seriously anyway.
KING ATTILA2 votesAdcs arent broken just because they are a staple in the game lol. They havent "destroyed competitions since Season 1", they are just needed for objectives. Thats like saying "since Season 1, there was a jungler on every team. You cant come up with a better strategy than having a jungler can you?" Do you really want the game to be balanced just around lcs? Obviously adcs are way stronger in lcs than in soloq but lcs isnt real League of Legends.
Imagine a team without a ranged adc, how are they gonna get turrets against ranged champs?
You're like a joke, except not smart or funny.
Dominick Destine5 votesADCs are fine.
Zed is overpowered.
aperson15 votesRiot has been fueling this ranged vs. melee arms race from the beginning:
is permakiting all our dashless melee champs? Melees need better gapclosers! 
Melee champs blowing up ranged champs in a few seconds while being unkitable and unkillable? Ranged need more tools! 
Ranged are outdamaging melees while being unkillable? Melee need more reliability! 
Point and click duelists are destroying other melees in the top lane? Melee need more versatility! 
Marksmen can't deal with all these bruisers hopping around? Give them the mobility to keep up! 
Melee need more lockdown! 
More gapclosers! 
Hey, don't forget ranged mages! They need tools to deal with overloaded melees jumping on their team! 
Supports too! 
Damn, all these ranged champs are impossible for melees to get to, and even when melees do somehow get there, they just end up getting CC'd and die. Let's give melee a ton of gapclosers and burst so that doesn't happen. What, that would be too much? Nah, anything is balanceable, just take it out of their base stats or something. 
Wow, ranged supports feel horrible having to peel these instagibbing, hyper-snowballing monstrosities. Let's toss everything we can into their kits too! 
At this point, Riot are starting to realize things are out of hand. They decide to dial back their release schedule so they can start to assess what the hell is going on, and figure out why people hate their latest releases. But the fun doesn't end here...
ZenonTheStoic: Yeah, sorry, I totally forgot to make his Q dodgeable. What, fix it? Do I look like I'm on the balance team or something? 
Gypsylord: She's immobile, therefore in exchange she should be able to do literally everything. Counter her? Just pick my other champion, Vi. 
CertainlyT: Check it out, he can go ANYWHERE and outplay ANYONE! Am I a genius or what? What, overloaded kit? No, you are clearly too stupid too understand my grand design. 
Gypsylord: Woaaaahhh, dude... I was just thinking... You know how marksmen counter tanks? Well what if we made a marksman... who's ALSO a tank??? No, not Urgot. 
ZenonTheStoic: High skillcap = good design, right? 
CertainlyT: *Hmm, marksman marksman, how the hell do I design a marksman? * plays some Jinx Wow! I did so much damage! But I really hated that part where a melee champion got in melee range, or a mage landed some skillshot CC, and killed me. 
Then the Juggernaut update happened. If you've been playing League in the past 6 or so months you know the rest.
Mizaya4 votes 
Were all weakened, Jinx especially, by the marksman rework. Props to riot for having some sense and helping the other ADCs that got screwed over as well instead of seeing that specific "ADCs" in other lanes not even building like ADCs were strong and deciding "Welp, let's nerf ADCs as a whole."
Mordekaiser was the most ridiculous thing to happen in a long time, like far more broken beyond any ADC ever was.
ADCs = sustained DPS from range. How is it bad for that to be essential? Do you want a full tank team meta with hour long games?
Earl Eulrich4 votesDo you want a full tank team meta with hour long games?
actually, yes - i want those strategy focused long games back. and making marksmen not mandatory for the first time by no means must lead to longer games - bruiser botlanes tend to close out faster, and some of the mages already excel in taking out turrets.
Mizaya3 votesS2 games were some of the longest, with ADCs being the strongest role.
And let me say - Sustained DPS is the primary way to deal with tanks. Assassins won't be played without ADCs, most mages won't be played in a no ADC meta. Actually, the dominant champions will just be sustained DPS mages. Kayle, Azir, Cassiopeia. it would probably be AD bruisers and Tanks with a scaling AP.
Without ADCs you lose a lot of strategy. Because there is strategy involved in killing the enemy ADC, in protecting your own ADC, etc. There is little strategy in wet noodle fights.
Earl Eulrich3 votesthere is a great difference between a game without marksmen at all (adc is a little missleading) and a game without them being 100%mandatory...
if you´d actually have a legit choice if you want to pick a marksmen or not it would only add to the strategies available - and strangly enough, assassins kill sustained dps mages, and mostly easier than adcs - because almost non of them have mobility.
mogonk3 votesWell yeah. Everybody knows the game is balanced around ADCs.
Zair Umbras3 votesI feel like you're all just circle jerking... ADCs are not broken right now and have never been 'broken'.
You're all stupid. ADC's have one role. That's to have sustained damage. This is so they can take out Tanks and Objectives. When you can show me a champ that can do this without blowing long CDs that isn't a Marksmen and can do it at a range, we'll talk. Until then, quit complaining. Marksmen do sustained damage at a range. The day that isn't required in a MOBA is the day they don't exist in that MOBA.
EddardStark843 votesAdcs are not broken stop this shit posting for god sakes. Literally any class blows them up and they have to have a personal baby sitter just to stay alive the majority of the game. Again stop the shit posting!
AsphodelNext3 votesEven back then people were sick of how broken ADCs were due to them being required on every damn team composition, and Riot has done almost nothing since then to change that
Every time a post on the forums mentions "people", I mentally replace it with "Some random person with a keyboard and a functioning Internet connection".
Bodkins Odds1 votesI bet there's an extension for that.
forresto3 votes3 ADC meta ftw. I'm deadly serious, I see it all the time.
xl Kirito lx2 votesI still say the teleport meta was amazing for dealing with ADC's. Top / mid both running teleport, with homeguards being available before 20min. If either ADC pushed, or gained an advantage, the entire other team will come down on them.
MLDzXnRRR2 votesI've seen Akali to shutdown team of 3 ADCs and Yasuo. It was ugly.
Irelia Bot3 votesI've seen Akali to shutdown team of 3 ADCs and Yasuo. It was ugly.
I remember when akali and some other assassins could effectively keep marksmen in check.
Then Riot nerfed them because marksmen called them toxic for doing what an assassin should be doing.
EddardStark842 votes[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f1kn5XWz,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-02-27T17:01:13.861+0000)
I remember when akali and some other assassins could effectively keep marksmen in check.
Then Riot nerfed them because marksmen called them toxic for doing what an assassin should be doing.
They still do and always will. At this point this shit is trolling. Shit posting for the sake of shit posting.
SH Azykan2 votesI have played with premade 5's with unique lanes and found some that work far better than 1-1-2+1 jungle with the 2 being adc and support. Putting a low income safe waveclear champion like Lulu bot lane by herself (have her double jungle at the start) a hard engage top, 2 mid with one being a very strong roaming support and the other a good waveclear or all in champion. Then a diving jungler.
Start top side for the double jungle, getting your bot champ and top laner to help take the camp (if on blue side just smite gromp and go to blue and let top laner have gromp). Make sure the jungler takes the last hit on the big monster from camps and the soloo laner gets the small dudes at blue and red and 1 small wolf. Do a FULL clear with the double jungle making sure the bot laner stays healthy as they are going to need to catch the minion wave and avoid being dove (it should be at your tower, have jungler hang around to make sure they get it if the enemy bot lane is super strong at diving). Jungle then goes and clears top side jungle again and then roam with the support to top and create pressure or get a kill. Then top/jungle/support all go get rift herald control. Hard shove top with all 3 people and dive the enemy laner if he is dumb and stays or tp'd back to lane if you previously killed him with rift herald buff. Take the tower, proxy the wave or whatever (the solo bot laner very likely should retreat into your jungle and just take camps to avoid being counter dove). Then flip everyone on their head to pressure mid or bot while the low income player goes top to play in the much safer long lane. Your mid should have a farm advantage on the enemy mid from it being 2v1 to start, even if slightly down on xp. So they should be hitting item breakpoints and be able to roam bot to create a 4 vs 2/3 play with a tp on your low income player that is top, just in case.
every single time me and my friends ran this strat we absolutely dominated the current meta. no one could handle it and usually got flamed in all chat for cheesing them. Sadly it is hard to keep all 5 of us on for much at a time or climbing would be cake.
Most important bans: Blitzcrank (Makes a 1v2 lane impossibly dangerous because a hook = death), Poppy (depends on your jungler, but she is so hard to dive sometimes), Rek'Sai (because she can easily track and counter your plays)
Fave comp we did it with:
top/high income laner: enabled diving and was able to bully a little early to to make it even easier
jungle: Imo the best diving jungler right now
mid: scales hard off gold and levels, early level disadvantage didnt really matter because was able to pick up items on time. Also package is super powerful and enables tower taking
the roaming support: easy to charge stun, and corki + annie was able to kill the enemy mid actually a couple times. Also ranged so works great for tower taking too
bot/low income solo laner: really safe, able to clear waves and not die.
Once you get outer towers down, just group and roam to pressure and take towers, have corki and lulu pickup side waves to keep wave control. Annie+J4+Corki made for some insanely strong teamfights. Annie + Elise is a lot of pick potential if you catch someone while roaming.
Seriously give this a try if you have 4 other people willing to play it with you. Or add me and I can play the Hard roam support (Thresh, Annie, Alistar are my fave to use for it) And if you dont want Corki cause he is a "marksman" there are other champs like 
that you can easily swap in his place for mid lane. Corki is just rather ideal for it.
Fanny Forecast2 votesYou guys have to keep in mind, in regards to Morde at least, while it WAS 100% imbalance on Riot's part, the community backlash to a different bot lane than ADC+Supp duo (or swapping in extremely high ELOs) was EXTREME and is the SOLE CAUSE of this. The community is the reason for most of the things Riot does, and then you wonder why Riot does certain things.
Zed and Lee not getting nerfs? If they do, the community would literally go to Riot HQ and murder the balance department. Riot themselves has stated that they're SCARED to touch Lee because of the community. The community LOVES Lee, as does Riot, but Riot WANTS to balance him but CAN'T because of the community loving him too much. Boards isn't all the community, btw, it's a small portion.
Non-Ranged ADC's bot lane? They tried that and they got SEVERE backlash for both the idea and the champ, when only one was justified (the latter, for any trolls).
If you guys want to change shit about the game, you gotta change the attitude of the community, which IS possible and starts with you.
MunchCrunchLunch2 votesbecause the game now is about a ranged adc hiding behind a meat wall of tanks.
Railios2 votesIf you cant kill the weakest role in the game stop playing the way you do.
Erockandroll1 voteshttp://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3551106
Even back then people were sick of how broken ADCs were due to them being required on every damn team composition, and Riot has done almost nothing since then to change that
The ONLY attempt they did to make ADCs optional was the joke that was Mordekaiser's rework, then they left him in the shitter.
It would be more accurate to say that ADC's are optimal, not required. If your bringing up Mord.
Their actually role isn't required for the teamcomp itself. If it were, we would have seen an ADC in another lane when bot lane Mord was a thing. (Which didn't happen when he was pick/ban in the LCS.)
ADC's are the optimal choice in the Duo lane, because their damage is Auto attack focused. Meaning they scale more from items than from levels. Making them Okay, when an XP leach is right next to them. (But I don't hear anyone complaining about the support meta do I?)
The only way you could work around that fact is if you some how got rid of the support. (then you would need to survive the 1v2.) Or cheat the xp system. (Which is what Mord did, and was considered toxic for it.)
The only other option would be to work a champion so that he's simply better in the Duo lane. Possibly as a result of ally dependent spells. (again, like they did with Mord.)