"We gutted Kassadin because his mobility was too high and lacked counterplay"

metaworldpeace10·Feb 25, 2015·73 votes·4,175 views

Meanwhile, Nidalee gets a free 500 range gap closer that has an execute mechanic on it. That's totally balanced. /sarcasm

48 Comments

PryotraFeb 25, 201512 votes

LeeSin Kalista Zed Nidalee RekSai

Hue Hue Hue Hue

Get it? because thats a whole team comp?

VerandureFeb 25, 20152 votes

Support Nidalee?! What is this? S3?!

Tannhäuser GateFeb 25, 20152 votes

Clearly Ap lee song support

OperationDEEZ1Feb 26, 20152 votes

Kalista doesn't need Peel, so it fits

FastAsHeckFeb 25, 201511 votes

i dont get you guys. first everyone complains about mobility creep. now riot does something (a little something) by reducing a mobility spell's range and what do you do? rage again because kassading is the only one getting a nerf. this community is so rotten. i know that i will be downvoted to oblivion btw.

BetaDude40Feb 25, 201527 votes

We're mad that Riot is CLEARLY making a huge double standard. Why does Kassadin have his ult nerfed severely (even if it functions like Kog's ult, and is quite frankly the only person I can think of that pays very heavily for his mobility) if other champions have just as good mobility on much lower cooldowns with barely any cost on non-ultimate abilities. Why does Kass lose his ult when one can get just as much range with Lee Q + wardhop, or Yasuo + minion wave, or Kalista + anything, or Nidalee + hunted target??

The reason people don't really care about the above stated is because most of those require some other thing to be done, whereas Kassadin just ults freely with no constraints other than mana. Nidalee has to either land a spear or trap to make it work, Kalista needs to Q or find something to attack, Yasuo needs a minion wave or plenty of other targets of some type, Lee Sin has to buy sightstone to get a ward hop whenever he might need it, ect.

I can see what they mean, but Kass has not been a problem as of recently. He may have a high ban rate, but he's barely picked more than Malphite in ranked games. Kass's first round of nerfs (main case being ult damage taken and Q silence removed, along with slightly slashed AP ratios) I think put him in a really good spot. He can't instantly burst people down quite as easily, but you could still kill people given enough effort. All of his abilities are short range, requiring you to ult to use any of them. If you lost the ult range for a slightly non-glorified flash (with the scaling costs, might I add), then he won't get in range to do anything, and he won't be able to do much. He's already near-useless pre-6, he shouldn't also be useless post-6.

All those other champions come complimented with tons of damage, Lee Sin also gets some tankiness as well. Given you can catch up to Kassadin, his damage will be somewhat lacking. You probably know trying to chase Kalista is suicide, just because she has both sustained, burst, and poke damage along with insane mobility all in one kit. We're mad that Kassadin, probably the least of any offender (other than the occasional mobile tank) for this mobility creep situation, and HE is receiving nerfs. Kassadin has a 99.4% ban rate early 2014. After the nerfs, he was practically unseen in ranked. We feel Kassadin nerfs were unjustified, because he was already in a somewhat good spot.

Riot needs to stop making all of these double standards. It's really getting annoying.

FastAsHeckFeb 26, 20152 votes

oh no you all got me wrong. i disagree with the kassa nerfs. im just saying that everyone was complaining about mobility creep and included kassadin, but i dont see a post here that says "thank you for nerfing kassadin riot". im just saying that people always try to find something to complain. kassadin didnt deserve the nerf, he was fine as he was.

Mandang0Feb 25, 20151 votes

^This.

It's just a bunch of Kass ~~abusers~~ mains mad that they'll have to learn something else for the 1st time in 2 years.

trexmixGFeb 26, 20153 votes

are you stupid.

Maybe Kassadin was too strong. But was the answer really reducing his ult range by 42%? His damage already isn't that high. What made Kassadin so strong was his mobility, but now Nidalee out damages and out mobilities him.

Mandang0Feb 26, 20151 votes

No one's saying Nidalee shouldn't get nerfed...idk why Kass defenders keep coming back to that.

OperationDEEZ1Feb 26, 20152 votes

Because Riot's fixing one champion's problem but leaving another champion who has the same problem only WORSE alone. Do you see what the problem here is?

Mandang0Feb 26, 20151 votes

So Riot's not able to fix their problem 1 champ at a time, but needs to hit them all at once?

Now let me ask you a question: If it was Nidalee being nerfed instead of Kass, would you be defending her because her mobility was getting nerfed & not Kass's? I suspect not.

trexmixGFeb 26, 20152 votes

except Kass ISNT op. he was in a fine place.

the meta, and what is strong, is all relative.

if X champ has 100 mobility and y champ has 50, X champ is op. If Z champ is introduced with 200 mobility, he is now OP and X champ is not that strong bc Z champ does the same thing better.

Say Kass is X champ, and then Kalista/nid are Z champ. Kass is not op.

he wasn't before the nerf, and he sure as hell isnt now.

Mandang0Feb 26, 20151 votes

I think your example here is flimsy, and at best you can say we disagree on whether Kassadin was balanced.

I think people still banned him for a very good reason, and pointing out that other champions are also banned a lot doesn't make him anymore balanced - it means they should ALL be addressed.

trexmixGFeb 26, 20151 votes

except thats not how meta works.

If meta is even a bad thing.

All the time, some champs will be strong and some will be good. Why was Kassadin any better than LeBlanc or Nidalee? whats that, hes not? so why would I pick him?

He offers some variety.... more tank, a little more mobility, at the cost of damage and mana costs.

He was balanced before.

pointing out that other champions are also banned a lot doesn't make him anymore balanced - it means they should ALL be addressed.

yes it kinda does. if there is a wide pool of strong champs (which there was) then if anything Rito should nerf the ones at the top to make everything at the same level, not nerf one to the ground.

Kass was strong but nowhere near the top.

Mandang0Feb 26, 20151 votes

You're implying that Kass's strength was only a passing thing, like the meta.

He's been this way for over a year now. Your "meta" excuse still looks very flimsy, and could be used to defend every imbalanced champion in the history of the game "oh, they're just in meta"

trexmixGFeb 26, 20152 votes

except he's never been OP since his silence was removed.

what people in this game need to realize is that there is a difference between strong and OP.

Kassadin's kit is strong. Is this a reason to nerf him? no.

we're done here.

Mandang0Feb 26, 20151 votes

How would you address mobility creep? (I doubt we're gonna see eye to eye on whether Kass was balanced)

trexmixGFeb 26, 20151 votes

IMO, mobility creep isnt THAT big of a deal. Obviously, its still a problem (lookin at you, Kalista although she got nerfed.)

Mobility is one of the funnest aspects of LoL, but Champs need to pay for it.

There are four pillars of power in LoL-

Mobility Damage Utility and CC.

The problem with mobility creep is a champ being strong in mobility, AND damage, AND cc.

Mobile champs just need to be toned back in one other area.

Mandang0Feb 26, 20151 votes

Mobility might be fun, but so too are a lot of mechanics in the game that get pushed out because of mobility. Riot can't have traditional melee carries because of their mobility creep, needing to either have them function like bruisers or assassins. Channel ultimates are becoming less and less useful due to the abundance of gapclosers letting the enemy avoid your telegraphed target. Even zone control mechanics get weaker when mobility remains strong for so long (and it has).

I agree that Riot needs to manage their power budgets differently, but I think the raw amount of mobility is also a problem, even if accurately accounted for in power budgets, because it limits future game design to mechanics that aren't useless versus mobility.

trexmixGFeb 26, 20151 votes

I'm sorry, but what melee carries have been pushed out?

MrSexyHoboFeb 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

i dont get you guys. first everyone complains about mobility creep. now riot does something (a little something) by reducing a mobility spell's range and what do you do? rage again because kassading is the only one getting a nerf. this community is so rotten. i know that i will be downvoted to oblivion btw.

kassadin got a bunch of nerfs because his mobility was to strong. HE WAS BALANCED AROUND THE 750 RANGE FLASH. now he got a mobility nerf and all his damage is low. do you see the problem now?

HellordFeb 26, 20151 votes

Damage is not low in absolute, is low until late game, and I suspect people complained about that and about a snowballer in midgame, not the 95% of Kassdin's games. Problem is that this change makes you a tower farmer cause at level 6 you now lose trades vs most if not all mages with 500+ range. They basically forced a .6s distance you have to walk to get to your target, and the same to walk away.

For how it works you won't go in to stay long in a sustained fight, it's not how he is designed. Every engange is a 3-4s jump in & out, wait cds, reengage & out (or finish) and so on. Now it takes 1s more to do the same, so you are further gutted by the build path (ROA, Zhonya and boots2) with priorities that seem not anymore a choice.

Ramix The RedFeb 25, 20155 votes

I don't wanna go on a long rant here so I'll keep this short:

When people complain about mobility creep, the usual suspects are LeeSin Zed Kalista RekSai Ahri

Most people agreed that Kass was, maybe not balanced, but at least way less of a problem than a lot of other champions. A lot of people (and even a post replying to you) said that he was "the only champ that paid heavily for his mobility". Most of the other champs were untouched, or got minor nerfs. Kassadin got a pretty significant nerf.

It's not an issue about game balance, its an issue about double standards.

ZmuecatFeb 26, 20153 votes

Yup.

Like, don't get me wrong, Kass has been hell for me in some games, but at my skill level he appears in about 1 out of every... let's say 50 (being generous).

These other champions are seen almost every other game. Could they be 'fun'? Sure, most definately. I played Lee once and had a ball, but a champion doesn't see the amount of play he gets unless somethings wrong with either him, or the champion pool as a whole.

I believe Riot said that they think Lee is the most balance champion in the game, so if that's where their goal is, we have a whole bunch of champions that need something more than a kiss on the cheek.

BetaDude40Feb 26, 20152 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPT1hmQV_6Q

I've heard that Zed is the healthiest assassin stuff, but THAT!!?!?

If you can, try to find a link to that, just so I can bathe in the absurdity

KevinDelMarrFeb 25, 20152 votes

For me it's not the nerf itself but the compensation. Reducing the mana gate for the first few Riftwalks is pointless, when you get RoA every game saving 200 Mana isn't too effective. Now if the change was riftwalking on someone gave you a magic shield and AS, or riftwalking onto someone lowered W cooldown, then it would be a cool trade-off, he would be more of a mobile-assassin fighter. You also have to take in the fact even though your 5th riftwalk is now easily obtainable (Hey, the one somewhat real positive), you've lost mobility overall. It also sucks when they make a change and don't talk about what their future plans are. Riot has a small history of nerfing and forgetting (read Poppy, Urgot, Olaf)

TalamareFeb 25, 201510 votes

Also Kalista Ahri

1st HanarSpectreFeb 25, 20156 votes

I know I'm wasting my time, but you do know that those are two different spells right?

Auz the RipperFeb 25, 20151 votes

I think he's referring to the reset mechanic on it and Just got the term mixed up

InsaneSamuraiFeb 25, 20155 votes

Leeeeeeeeeeeesin

j jFeb 25, 20154 votes

Kassadin was a problem. (not sure if this was the right direction but I'm all for anything that decreases mobility)

BetaDude40Feb 25, 20152 votes

He lost quite a bit of damage during the first round of nerfs. He's also pretty short range, so he needs to ult to get into range a lot of the times.

I think that maybe the ult range nerf could be justified, but they should probably do something about the scaling mana cost if it's just going to be a slightly damaging flash. That's really my complaint with this, is that they're keeping the scaling cost when others have plain better mobility than him at next to no costs.

j jFeb 25, 20153 votes

Kassadin's ult was too crazy in terms of range. I'd say in most games he nearly would always survive team fights just because of ult + burst + hour glass + ult again + ult again. It still crosses nearly every wall even after it's range reduction, so it is still possible for him to abuse his ultimate like he previously did. The problem with kassadin was low risk high reward in conjunction of escaping or catching people due to the distance. This gives people more wiggle room to catch him or escape him.

His laning phase is still fine with his Q (and magic shield) still allowing him to bully and him innately reducing magic damage. Possibly with range reduction he can get a minor buff in the future but nothing big. He is a champion that is hard to balance mostly because of his ultimate. He is too good at everything and needs to find a healthy medium between the laning phase and roaming. There needs to be risks involved and for many years he was a champion with very little risk.

He currently is not "gutted" or over nerfed. He will still pub stomp and he will still burst people out. He now needs to make smarter choices however when planning his escape or trying to catch somebody. This is "risk"

DamnimalFeb 25, 20157 votes

lol because Leblanc Distortion doesnt get you over almost every wall with better burst and an instant escape....Hence the double standard Ill be refunding Kass and practicing my LB till they realize they gutted Kass way to hard

Huevo con JamonFeb 25, 20154 votes

Meanwhile leblanc remains untouched, talk about mobility.

Ironclad DragonFeb 25, 20153 votes

We know LeeSin and Nidalee are in a relationship. Nerfing Nid would upset Lee. And Lee might emerge from the computer to express his displeasure.

AnOstrichWithPMSFeb 25, 20151 votes

maybe its support lee sin and reksai top

TheBossOfHeartsFeb 25, 20151 votes

Well you see it's not like Kassadin needs mob for him combo ( i mean ) WTF you R on Cait she kites you use like 4 ult's to get to her the go oom then die by a jugler EVEN Fizz can just with Q to you now, why riot WHY!! ;(

OrangesilkFeb 25, 20151 votes

Kassadin had 90% pick/ban rate in most competitive environments, he clearly had to go. I believe what really pushed Kass over the edge competitively were the consistent nerfs to early game jungling, which makes it impossible to punish him for his terrible pre-6, and once he has his ult, ganks don't matter.

Fixing the jungle would have fixed Kass, at least made him healthy enough not to warrant this brutal nerf (it's not like anyone is happy about the current jungle anyways) but since they didn't do it, they had to kill him.

BetaDude40Feb 26, 20151 votes

Sources please???

Yeah, he's around 6th top ban in all regions, but he's got an 8.3% pick rate with a 46.97% win rate (From one of my posts before, it was a 9.87% pick rate with around 47% winrate. He's actually dropped) My source

While I like that you are willing to think about the indirect effects that nerfing the jungle has on other positions, Kassadin lost a huge amount of damage after his silence was taken (as well as losing some due to casual love taps). Those, some argue put him in a good place, while others argue it really ruined his role as an assassin.

Then you have this nerf. This nerf, where everyone that plays Kassadin can wholeheartedly agree is making him utterly useless. He has low range on all of his abilities now, and he has a massive scaling mana cost on the only move that gives him mobility, which is now a non-glorified flash.

If Riot wanted to make sure Kass wasn't oppressive, or any laner for that matter, because of a lack of early ganks, then they should make early jungle easier rather than punish Kassadin even more when he was perfectly fine.

crush1xFeb 26, 20151 votes

Nid needs to land a spear

Kuro BansheeFeb 26, 20153 votes

Nidalee's Hop = 50 / 100 / 150 / 200 (+ 30% AP) at 375/750(Hunted) no cost and 5 sec. Cd

Kassadin's Rift-crawl = 80 / 100 / 120 (+ 2% of max mana) - 240 / 300 / 360 (+ 6% max mana) at 450, with a cost 60 / 120 / 240 / 480 / 960 Mana on a 7/5/3 sec. Cd

So at max level Nidalee without her hunted bonus will be able to jump nearly as far as Kassadin while doing more damage than him below 3 stacks. So yes to jump farther Nidalee does have to land a spear but she's still far more effective seeing as she also has a Garen Ult.

NarogFeb 26, 20151 votes

Kassidin has Counterplay, he has 53% winrate in LCS and like 43% winrate in soloqueue ,very weak early game and he need to be extremely feed to oneshoot people s, while zed and leblanc can do with half the items kassidin needs.

thinking manFeb 26, 20151 votes

Kassadin's damage should've just been nerfed again because his ult was fun and a huge part of his identity.

MephistophilisFeb 26, 20151 votes

in the while Lee ward hops to the moon and back as he pleases

Miku Lv99Feb 26, 20151 votes

They can't nerf nid before the LCS is over. Then there wouldn't be enough jungle competition to keep their precious Lee from getting banned all the time.