Id like to do what riot did to defense of ancients and remake this game

Woook3r··3 votes·1,150 views

I might do something like two inventories. One inventory can hold combat stats as league currently does, but the other would hold resources that can be used to construct semi permanent map structures.

I think that riot does a decent job keeping champion interactions interesting but they have only given us a few pve interactions that are laudable. The blast cones look like shit but are pretty great and the honey fruit is something I wish I could play around with more agency. I think they made a start but need to keep going and if I could, I would try to do it before they do. I also think they need to look into more ways of doing what I would like to call pvevp, which is how I refer to situations in which a player can use environment to make a play against another player. Currently, only blasting cone can really give the high point pvevp interaction, but its not something that has enough agency to give us what we want. You get to make the blasting cone disengage play in a couple of ways, but you are always really lucky to have that play available. Its not really something that you can have up your sleeve and transition over time in such a way as to take advantage, but that is the exactly the way that you would want pvevp to grant agency.

Terrain is a static element. It stays in place even though the fight is proximal and dynamic in its locality. The wonderful thing about it is that its power does not belong to you, but at least 1) the availability of that power is something that you can generate. 2) Its a confluence of events that you need to instigate or promote and your opponent needs to suppress. And 3) if you cant instigate them at will, meaning that there are some choices/mistakes your opponent needs to make, then thats another form of stasis that can be interesting as well. In such a scenario, there are tactical assumptions that provide a foundation for strategies.

Towers could be an example of this if they actually could protect you. The tactical assumption is that you are safe under tower and strategically you might try and secure the means to poke your enemy because they cannot harm you under tower. If you do, your strategy has succeed. If your opponent attacks you under tower, they lose and if they dont then you poke them and they still lose. However, I think Riot correclty realizes that this isnt the best mechanic on their map. And in my opinion, the towers are not very well suited for pvevp. Theres not enough variation between tower locations, there are just too many towers all over the map, and the towers arent neutral and that actually violates what pvevp is supposed to be about. Its a palindrome. Gotta be neutral alignment. Furthermore, the optimal strategy isnt that fun or enriching. So actually, good for Riot having weak towers. Its painful, but probably correct.

Weve now got the blast cones and it seems clear that Riot is experimenting with this idea, but they need to do a better job somehow because I dont actually like the blasting cones yet. I just dont know how they can do it on the current map. There isnt a lot of open real estate. If you think im talking out my ass here, take a look where they put all of the new environment objects. Skuttle, honey fruit, blasting cone, blue dandelion thing. All of those are in jungle areas because the lanes are already full of pvevp objects. And thats sort of why I started from the angle of a remake of league, but im not sure yet.

I think there could be room for something better. You just have to look at examples from other games and start to make abstractions so that you can apply that stuff to league. I also think Riot needs to open up to the possibility of a new map. Everyone acknowledges that there are sort of two forms of league. Theres a really rigorous form of league that happens when theres actually cooperation and theres this really monkey form of league we call soloq. Well, might be a popular idea to try and separate the two forms by adding another good map. SR as it is can have the rigorous pro scene and the hypothetical new map can have something we can all enjoyably chimp out to, including some new pvevp stuff where all the rules are regularly broken.

As far as games old Rito should draw from, ill always go back to halo. Some people arent that fond of it, and neither am I ever since plasma screens and excessive judder became the norm, but once you master the skill of nestling grenades in corners as you run that game just becomes so interesting and fun because there are or were a ton of people who did not fully recognize the power and influence that environmental interaction is.

On maps like the pit, I would routinely throw grenades into corners in situations where I didnt even expect to deal dmg and it would be a game altering success. Sometimes I could make risky plays and accept the potential for a 2v1 situation because I had a nice fallback route with plenty of opportunities for a double kill. The game was about knowing where to make a stand so that I could net positive trades and about how do you overcome a scenario where the opponent has an environmental advantage.

And if youve ever killed the guy who just picked up a rocket launcher by using your pistol and a well timed grenade, you know how rewarding it can be. Ostensibly, the rocket launcher is the most powerful force on the map, but its no where near as powerful as the map itself. THATS a fantasy that doesnt exist in league.

And then you take the rockets from him and wipe his whole team. Thats a cucking enough for 10 men.

3 Comments

koallla1 votes

this is obviously genius insight and I will speak to rito immediately to get the ball rolling on the design and functionality aspects.

Woook3r1 votes

Thanks bud. You are beautiful, too.

Woook3r1 votes

I think ive been able to abstractify what it is that makes the halo gameplay so satisfying to me.

Ill start with the assumptions that 1) the map is the most powerful/influential force in the game and 2) the amount of power that the players have in comparison is small.

If you have those two assumptions, you automatically have a balanced game and the reward for winning is meaningful. It is easily seen that the players must leverage the power of the map in order to win. If they dont fight over this power, it will by default be awarded to the enemy. So that is forced, but since the map is entirely neutral no one can claim that the winner did not merit victory. Balance. If you win the game, it is known that you did better work on the map. That makes victory over your opponents meaningful.

Contrast that with league. The amount of power players have is quite large with respect to the map and ive lost fights that began with the enemy facechecking me. Combine that with the early vs late champion dynamic + snowballing, and you often have enough power asymmetry that you dont feel like you did very much to win the teamfight. So yea. There are times when victory in league is NOT meaningful.

Contrast that with the example of killing the guy with the rocket launcher when I only have a pistol and a grenade. Well. Since I was playing around map position and information readily accessible to all players, I feel quite confident that I outplayed the hell out of that guy. And I feel good as hell about it.

The good thing about halo is that these interactions are frequent and satisfying. The bad thing about league is that asymmetrical situations like um idk... adc vs syndra are common and meaningless other than their propensity to create even more asymmetry (snowballing). So the more and more you find yourself in asymmetrical and competitively unsatisfying interactions, the more asymmetry you create and the less satisfying it is.

The solution I am offering is to fill the neutral environment with enough power to dwarf power differentials between champions. Ensuring that ownership of the power is transient and contestable, the game would be about consistently tipping the balance in your favor until the game ends. The power differential between players will only serve to temporarily tip the balance of power granted by the map. Thats pvevp.

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