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Maokai got reworked for being a generalist

HateDaddy··21 votes·941 views

And I agreed with the rework, Maokai was too good at everything and had no specific niche other than "need a tank? Pick me." But doesn't the same apply to Gragas? Galio was popular but that's simply because he was overtuned. But Gragas is literally Maokai 2.0 with an interesting ult. He poked hard in lane, has hard engage, has durability and has sustain. You literally can't kill Gragas unless he fucks up. Better still, he's also a tier 1 jungler in addition to being a tier 1 top laner.

What are the downsides to picking Gragas? He has everything. Like old Maokai, I don't find him overly oppressive in lane but you realize when playing against him, virtually every lane he plays is free because he's so safe. Maokai had conditional mobility, Gragas doesn't. And Maokai sustain required interaction, Gragas' doesn't. How come gragas isn't being looked at for violating the same things?

I don't even think Gragas is really OP or oppressive, I just can't fathom how he's allowed to exist in his current state when he's doing the exact same thing old Maokai did, but in many cases he does it better.

19 Comments

DunkinNoobs6 votes

Gragas is just a trash design and always has been. Hell, he's not even supposed to be a tank; he's supposed to be an AP champ but that playstyle was too cancerous and had to be changed. Now he's a tank because, even with meh scalings, he still has enough utility and base damage to just stack tanks stats and play like a mobile tank.

Doozku3 votes

I wish that Gragas was less of a full tank and more of an AP offtank like Galio where you build ROA into tank (As a JG it would probably be Runic Echoes) because watching AP Gragas is super interesting but Tank Gragas is very strong, less interesting to watch and to play, and is a pretty broken generalist when strong.

Inting Pillow2 votes

I hope they rework Gragas and the rework sucks ass. Tired of seeing him played in two roles, in every LCS game and equally viable in soloq. AND HOLY SHIT THAT MODEL, SO FUCKING UGLY. HOW HAS HE NOT, AT THE FUCKING LEAST HAD A VU?

Kuzja12 votes

I'd only play Gragas cause body slamming people looks funny, especially if it kills them. But yeah, he does seem overpowered. Lore wise, he seems pretty unfitting too. He's just a fatman who drinks a lot of grog, wine, beer, whatever drink statisfies him. Maybe if there was some strange formula on that casket that makes him as powerful as the rest of the competition (Or rather fat enough) then his character would seem more fitting.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

I'd only play Gragas cause body slamming people looks funny, especially if it kills them. But yeah, he does seem overpowered. Lore wise, he seems pretty unfitting too. He's just a fatman who drinks a lot of grog, wine, beer, whatever drink statisfies him. Maybe if there was some strange formula on that casket that makes him as powerful as the rest of the competition (Or rather fat enough) then his character would seem more fitting.

Lorewise I think it's because he's not a real human, he's a 'fatman'.

Ahristocats1 votes

gragas niche is isolating enemies, and combinating him with assassins like kha for example

now he's popular because overtuned just like pre-nerf galio

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=WTF DARIUS ADC ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=euQNHd50,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-07-09T20:17:22.416+0000)

gragas niche is isolating enemies, and combinating him with assassins like kha for example

now he's popular because overtuned just like pre-nerf galio

That's fine but he still brings way too much in lane phase. I suppose my point is Gragas could stand to be considerably less safe in lane.

Ahristocats2 votes

yes it is, because maokai was a pure generalist, gragas isn't

he needs a nerf to his rotating damage, his spells have an insane low cd+high damage W and Q damage should both be nerfed

his niche will still remain the same

Doozku2 votes

True but even with that niche he lacks real weaknesses. You can still pick him into any really comp and be succesful, because isolating enemies is useful no matter what comp you have, as long as you have someone with cc who can follow up.

Wet Dryman1 votes

That's why Grag should be listed on a VGU and in the meantime he needs a minirework similar to what Singed or Rammus got in order to make him healthier untill then (he has potential to be a very mechanical Bruiser, he currently has many goddamn satisfying combos that are also hard to pull off but they are useless if you're not playing AP).

There is nothing wrong with his displacement ult in my opinion as it has many drawbacks (it is one of the few gamechanging abilities that both sides can use to their advantage with their positioning and on top of that it is missable and dodgeable). Also things like Galio ult, Maokai ult, Sejuani ult or Sion ult are valuable in any teamcomp possible but they compensate for it (or are meant to compensate but something went wrong ekh ekh Galio) in their kits for that for example Maokai is Tanky against spell spammers, casters while he sucks in general against teamcomps which don't spam their spells like crazy, Galio was meant to be worse against AD teamcomps, Sion is delayed so he automatically sucks against mobile teamcomps, Sejuani works great when her team is melee heavy. If they had not drawbacks built in rest of their kit you could pretty much pick them in and against any team you want as zone control and CC does fit in every teamcomp possible and are useful no matter what.

Champion doesn't necessarily need "their teamcomp restriction". The only Tank that works like that is Sejuani due to her melee gimmick. Other Tank picks depend on what enemy team picked with small exceptions to it like Galio enhancing engage of his teammate or Gragas enabling Assassins safely gib someone with proper displacement (fine pick to build a certain teamcomp but it does not restrict those champions to be played only there as Galio supposed niche is just Anti AP).

Doozku1 votes

Yeah his AP Playstyle looks fun as hell and satisfying to pull off, I'd love for them to push him in that direction because I feel like Gragas as an AP Bruiser/Off-tank could be more easy to balance than full tank Gragas.

Wet Dryman1 votes

This is also how Gragas mains would like to see him too judging by Discord and Reddit page, full of AP Gragas tips, montages, memes and stuff, Tank Grag is rarity.

Doozku1 votes

tbh i might actually play him if he was AP. Not sure what role he would fit if he was AP tho. He isn't an Assassin, he isn't a skirmisher, he isn't really a mage since he gets in melee range, but he isn't a bruiser because he's too squishy. I guess maybe diver would be the right term? Or Vanguard/Burst Mage like Galio kind of.

Wet Dryman1 votes

Well he was reworked from Mage/Assassin into Fighter/Mage but it failed because he is too overloaded. As a Bruiser he would be Diver: mobility, some tankiness and potential to kill high priority targets.

LoLN0081 votes

also I cant figure out what maokais new niche is supposed to be, he plays almost the same except with more emphasis on saplings. They just gve him a new ult and switched his w and e damage

Big Lincoln8 votes

zone control tank

saplings give him vision and area denial, ult gives him a huge cock block AOE

Ahristocats7 votes

also, best tank against spell spammers passive was massively buffed, and cd is only reduced while being hit by a spell

if you're against like jhin+ori+gragas+mordekaiser top, you will literally never die once you have spirit visage

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

he didn't deserved a buff... This was so obvious.

Créam1 votes

Maokai is creeping back up into meta

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