So Ranked vs. Normal MMR shouldn't be shared, but sucks separate. Other options?

Shadow Gilgamesh·Jul 26, 2015·15 votes·4,614 views

We all know the pains of the current disconnect between ranked and normal MMR, where diamond and plat players are being matched with unranked, bronze, or even under 30 players simply by clicking normal instead of ranked. So many games are basically decided before champs are even chosen.

But we can't make them the same, because that system would be easily gamed. Tank your MMR in normals without losing LP then win every match because you never play with anyone good in ranked.

Would there be any problems with a hybrid solution? using ranked MMR instead of normal MMR if it's higher? or having their rank have a weight on their normal MMR? Yet not having normal MMR impact ranked play in any way?

33 Comments

hh the thinkerJul 27, 20159 votes

the last option sounds like the best to me. if you could make it so your normal mmr will stay within a tier or so of your ranked mmr (and your normal mmr doesn't change your ranked mmr), then I think people wouldn't complain about it too much. if people only play ranked and get to diamond and their normal mmr is still around bronze or silver, then instead of this, their normal mmr would go up from playing ranked.

for those who don't play ranked much at all, we could also make it so your normal mmr can go higher or lower than a tier if you are inactive from ranked. if you are gold lets say, you won't decay and if you don't play ranked for a while, your normal mmr could go up or down past a tier.

reason I say a tier is because normal are much more relaxed and it shouldn't be treated like ranked (like one division or at the same mmr), though when you have bronze and silver players fight plat and diamond, it does tend to be a bit unfair.

only way someone who is active in ranked play with a much lower rank or higher is to play with a group of friends of much different ranks (this option shouldn't be taken away since people like playing with friends).

IpolsJul 27, 20153 votes

In my opinion: Ranked: You go VS people with your ranked mmr no matter what.

Normal: You go VS people with theyr mmr = your higher mmr between normal/ranked

If someone can word this better for me, feel free to do it.

BudupopsJul 27, 20152 votes

ranked: u go against nerds normal: you go against noobs

IpolsJul 28, 20151 votes

That's for the effort put into making this thread better, I hope you'll do a better job next time

SwollwonderJul 27, 20152 votes

This is literally the reason I don't play ranked. My normal games are better because I spent so much time getting runes and actually getting good at ranked that the skill gap is ridiculous between me and my team mates.

Edit: not sure why this is downvoted. Seems like a decent reason not to play ranked to me

ChessburgerJul 27, 20152 votes

Yeah, no. As somebody who has mostly played normals for 5 years I do not want a mmr tie with ranked. That would substantially drop the quality of my games and would force me to grind ranked for no good reason...

hh the thinkerJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, no. As somebody who has mostly played normals for 5 years I do not want a mmr tie with ranked. That would substantially drop the quality of my games and would force me to grind ranked for no good reason...

if you were to read what I wrote, your normal mmr wouldn't change since you don't paly ranked. there is a way for most people to be happy with this, fairly sure riot won't do it though.

Shadow GilgameshJul 27, 20154 votes

I wasn't talking about removing normal MMR, as has been stated countless times before, that shit won't work.

Anyone who mostly or exclusively plays normals would have no change, if your normal MMR is gold, you still have gold MMR even if your rank is bronze. With a hybrid system, the players who would have a change would be people who play almost all ranked. No longer would diamonds show up and have the system look at their bronze normal MMR and say "okay put them in this game with 7 bronze players and 2 silvers, that looks fair" it would do something like check both and go with the diamond MMR from ranked for being higher, or if weighted, it would add points to their normal based on the weight of their rank, pushing them up to gold or plat MMR and get them out of bronze games.

ChessburgerJul 27, 20151 votes

Ah ok, that would work.

TotalJerkJul 27, 20152 votes

Not just ranked, there can also be a large gap between Teambuilder, Blind and normal draft. If you play one almost exclusively, it can be unbearable trying the others because you go from being matched with reasonably competent players to those who barely function enough to understand how to move a mouse.

Summoner's Rift games should have a overall MMR and a playlist MMR. Ranked is only affected by playlist MMR, but influences overall MMR

AnomanderJul 27, 20151 votes

Make one mmr however only ranked can decrease your mmr but all modes can increase it. How does that sound?

hh the thinkerJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Make one mmr however only ranked can decrease your mmr but all modes can increase it. How does that sound?

I don't like the idea of normal raising ranked mmr since normal are much easier. only good way would be if ranked was the only way to increase/decrease ranked mmr. normal mmr can be more flexible though since it's much less serious than ranked. ranked basically should stay the same, but the other modes mmr should be affected by your ranked mmr as I've said.

AnomanderJul 27, 20151 votes

Ah however if normal can't raise your mmr then you could get really good in normal and pub stomp ranked. Or you could completely outclass people in your normal by tanking your ranked stats(primarily on smurfs) This is why all modes need to increase your mmr.

hh the thinkerJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ah however if normal can't raise your mmr then you could get really good in normal and pub stomp ranked. Or you could completely outclass people in your normal by tanking your ranked stats(primarily on smurfs) This is why all modes need to increase your mmr.

people can already tank their mmr in ranked and do that if they really want to. this wouldn't increase it anymore than it is already really. as it is right now, your normal mmr doesn't increase your ranked mmr and it's good this way since winning in normal isn't the same as winning in ranked.

also, if people don't play ranked long enough like I said, their normal mmr will go up and games will sty fair this way.

AnomanderJul 27, 20151 votes

Lp gains are tied to mmr. If your mmr is higher then you are placed you gain more LP and if your lower you lose more. So having normals affect MMR would mean that in ranked you would get to your "ACTUAL"(good or bad) rank quicker.

hh the thinkerJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Lp gains are tied to mmr. If your mmr is higher then you are placed you gain more LP and if your lower you lose more. So having normals affect MMR would mean that in ranked you would get to your "ACTUAL"(good or bad) rank quicker.

the thing is though, the other team could have a diamond player while your bronze in the normal game if they are playing with people of low mmr and it would make your game fairly hard to win. losing mmr or winning mmr isn't good this way for ranked, but it is fine for ranked to affect your normal mmr since the players are much close and this can't happen.

AnomanderJul 27, 20151 votes

MMR means that you get match against people of equivalent skill based upon the mmr gains and losses. If your playing against diamond players in normal and your bronze either they TROLLED their mmr so they can pubstomp in normal or your a lot better then bronze and should gain the lp quick because your mmr is higher which would then put you at your appropriate skill lvl in ranked quicker. By making it so that normal games affected ranked mmr and visa versa it would actually help reduce incorrect matchmaking like what your talking about.

I also think that ranked should be the only way to lower your mmr during the season so people can't just troll normal to make ranked easier.

hh the thinkerJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

MMR means that you get match against people of equivalent skill based upon the mmr gains and losses. If your playing against diamond players in normal and your bronze either they TROLLED their mmr so they can pubstomp in normal or your a lot better then bronze and should gain the lp quick because your mmr is higher which would then put you at your appropriate skill lvl in ranked quicker. By making it so that normal games affected ranked mmr and visa versa it would actually help reduce incorrect matchmaking like what your talking about.

I also think that ranked should be the only way to lower your mmr during the season so people can't just troll normal to make ranked easier.

I know a lot of diamond players who stopped playing normal after they could do ranked which kept their normal mmr around bronze and silver and when they do play, they only fight low ranks. it happens quite a lot. also, just because someone is doing really good in normal, shouldn't mean they should gain lp since in normal, people try new champs and ideas out much more than ranked. it's taken a lot less seriously and if you could gain or loss ranked mmr from playing normal, then it would become the same as ranked which isn't what we want here.

also, if normal only gain mmr and not lose mmr, that's actually really bad since all you need to do is play normal and only gain 100%. either you have to both be willing to gain and lose mmr or not gain or lose mmr from losing a normal game.

AnomanderJul 27, 20151 votes

I know a lot of diamond players who stopped playing normal after they could do ranked which kept their normal mmr around bronze and silver and when they do play, they only fight low ranks. it happens quite a lot. also, just because someone is doing really good in normal, shouldn't mean they should gain lp since in normal, people try new champs and ideas out much more than ranked. it's taken a lot less seriously and if you could gain or loss ranked mmr from playing normal, then it would become the same as ranked which isn't what we want here.

Diamonds should not be matched against bronze and silver.

Second you would not gain LP for normal only for ranked wins however the amount gained is determined by mmr. SO doing really well in normal helps raise your LP gains but doesn't give LP. Ranked mmr would affect normal as well so these plats couldn't pub stomp bronzies

also, if normal only gain mmr and not lose mmr, that's actually really bad since all you need to do is play normal and only gain 100%. either you have to both be willing to gain and lose mmr or not gain or lose mmr from losing a normal game.

OK how about it can't lower your mmr lower then your ranked mmr? You can still gain and lose but can't go lower then ranked mmr?

hh the thinkerJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Diamonds should not be matched against bronze and silver.

Second you would not gain LP for normal only for ranked wins however the amount gained is determined by mmr. SO doing really well in normal helps raise your LP gains but doesn't give LP. Ranked mmr would affect normal as well so these plats couldn't pub stomp bronzies

OK how about it can't lower your mmr lower then your ranked mmr? You can still gain and lose but can't go lower then ranked mmr?

I would be ok with it that way, where players could raise their ranked mmr from winning, it goes down from losing but only to the point where it matches up where it was at so it can't keep going down.

Dar RaksadaJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ah however if normal can't raise your mmr then you could get really good in normal and pub stomp ranked. Or you could completely outclass people in your normal by tanking your ranked stats(primarily on smurfs) This is why all modes need to increase your mmr.

What's wrong with people learning to play in normals before going ranked? I was 700 elo at some point, then learned to play & stomped. But if your mmr would rise from normals you'd be fked in ranked because while you got a lot better, you'll still have a 50% winrate in your rank (current system at least lets you climb before that happens.)

AnomanderJul 27, 20151 votes

You should learn to play in normal before ranked. And when you first do placements your normal mmr helps determine your placements. Then lets say you don't play ranked for the next 2 seasons but play a lot of normal and your a lot better this would then raise your ranked mmr so that you would gain LP at a increased rate because your mmr is higher then your current placement meaning you would climb faster.

Your old winrate in ranked would then not matter at all because your mmr is higher. winrate is not related to mmr until you reach your actual/skill level mmr. People think winrate controls lp gains are wrong. Lp gains and losses are determined by your hidden mmr. If your higher mmr then what your matched against you will gain more LP and lose more lp for a win/loss. If your matched evenly on mmr you will gain and lose about the same. If your mmr is lower you will loss more.

What I am proposing would actually make climbing in ranked easier/faster if you did get a lot better in normal.

hh the thinkerJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You should learn to play in normal before ranked. And when you first do placements your normal mmr helps determine your placements. Then lets say you don't play ranked for the next 2 seasons but play a lot of normal and your a lot better this would then raise your ranked mmr so that you would gain LP at a increased rate because your mmr is higher then your current placement meaning you would climb faster.

Your old winrate in ranked would then not matter at all because your mmr is higher. winrate is not related to mmr until you reach your actual/skill level mmr. People think winrate controls lp gains are wrong. Lp gains and losses are determined by your hidden mmr. If your higher mmr then what your matched against you will gain more LP and lose more lp for a win/loss. If your matched evenly on mmr you will gain and lose about the same. If your mmr is lower you will loss more.

What I am proposing would actually make climbing in ranked easier/faster if you did get a lot better in normal.

winning in normal isn't the same as winning in ranked. beating plat and diamond in normal doesn't mean they should even be at a gold level. also, if they truly have improved that well, climbing would become really easy and even fun for them in ranked.

TwëekJul 27, 20151 votes

It's almost like it would be optimal to separate MMR for the two queues.

Dr PoroJul 27, 20151 votes

Ranked MMR should have an influence on normal MMR. I made a thread on the old forums with a suggested formula that would mean that the normal MMR would only be significantly influenced by the ranked MMR if you have a lot more ranked games played than normals. This is to tackle the players with lots of ranked games, but only 100-300 normals, while this doesn't affect players who play normals to play alternative roles/champions while playing rankeds to tryhard with their small elite champion pool.

LlaniteJul 27, 20151 votes

There are only 2 ways to legally tank your mmr. Either they will troll but let you win by the end, or they will play an unfavorable role that they are unlikely to win as hard, both of which is in your favor. I can't see the problem?

TwëekJul 27, 20151 votes

The whole point of MMR is that it matches you with opponents who are similar to your skill in a given queue. If a diamond player is being put against a bunch of silver players in a normals game, it means that on average that diamond player performs similarly to those silver players in their normal games. Maybe they're learning a new champion/role, or just not trying as hard in normal games or whatever, but overall they're as likely to win as whoever else they're matched up with, regardless of rank.

hh the thinkerJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The whole point of MMR is that it matches you with opponents who are similar to your skill in a given queue. If a diamond player is being put against a bunch of silver players in a normals game, it means that on average that diamond player performs similarly to those silver players in their normal games. Maybe they're learning a new champion/role, or just not trying as hard in normal games or whatever, but overall they're as likely to win as whoever else they're matched up with, regardless of rank.

the thing is though, a diamond player playing janna mid can beat a bronze player playing annie or anything else really. some just don't play normal that often and their normal mmr is still really behind where it should be. it takes many games to bring it up and there can be a system that improves on this and speeds up the process.

Dar RaksadaJul 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=hh the thinker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=el3iEsry,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2015-07-27T20:05:50.800+0000)

the thing is though, a diamond player playing janna mid can beat a bronze player playing annie or anything else really. some just don't play normal that often and their normal mmr is still really behind where it should be. it takes many games to bring it up and there can be a system that improves on this and speeds up the process.

It depends. A platinum/Diamond player could be really good at some things, but terrible at others. I'm a platV player, with mid & toplanes around that skilllevel, a jungle skilllevel that I would claim is slightly higher, decentish support skills but downright terrible adc skills. No one would suspect me of smurfing if I was placed as an adc in a silver V/bronze I game.

Then there is the added factors which lead to me (and presumeably other diamond/plat players underperforming in normals. These include (among others) no 'pressure' to win, trying out new/fun stuff, trying to improve with things you know you're terrible with and would never take into ranked, lack of focus in normals, playing with friends with radically different playstyles etc.

hh the thinkerJul 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dar Raksada,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=el3iEsry,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2015-07-28T00:20:58.248+0000)

It depends. A platinum/Diamond player could be really good at some things, but terrible at others. I'm a platV player, with mid & toplanes around that skilllevel, a jungle skilllevel that I would claim is slightly higher, decentish support skills but downright terrible adc skills. No one would suspect me of smurfing if I was placed as an adc in a silver V/bronze I game.

Then there is the added factors which lead to me (and presumeably other diamond/plat players underperforming in normals. These include (among others) no 'pressure' to win, trying out new/fun stuff, trying to improve with things you know you're terrible with and would never take into ranked, lack of focus in normals, playing with friends with radically different playstyles etc.

ya, i know some people are weak in some roles and how people don't try as hard in normal, but in general, if you get a role you are ok at or good, you will beat someone of lower rank most of the time. normal mmr should be able to go a tier up or down depending on how they play in the normal. past a tier it gets a bit more uneven.

Dar RaksadaJul 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=hh the thinker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=el3iEsry,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-28T01:24:12.981+0000)

ya, i know some people are weak in some roles and how people don't try as hard in normal, but in general, if you get a role you are ok at or good, you will beat someone of lower rank most of the time. normal mmr should be able to go a tier up or down depending on how they play in the normal. past a tier it gets a bit more uneven.

Of course when I get my main role in normals it's usually a win, but that's assuming people get/want a role they're good at in normals. The reason I like normals is because it's detached.

Maybe normal drafts could get shared mmr or smth though.

CrazedPorcupineJul 27, 20151 votes

I'd say use a leapfrog method that only works one way.

It'd work like this. Your normal MMR is way higher than your ranked MMR. Your Ranked MMR is boosted by a % of the difference. Your ranked MMR is way higher than your normal MMR. Your Normal MMR is boosted by a % of the difference.

This CANNOT WORK BACKWARDS. You try to tank tons of normals, and your ranked MMR will just keep it up where it should be. You tank lots of ranked games, you end up getting demoted, but your MMR stays the same in both queues.

FrontlinerDeltaJul 27, 20151 votes

Obviously we can't have normal MMR affect ranked but there is no reason it can't work the other way around.

This would work too for someone who's silver level in normals, decides to get serious in ranked, plays for 2 months solid ranked and gets to diamond. Awesome right? Then some friends want to play normals, well he's still ranked as a silver in the MMR system for normals. Leading to a frustrating and lopsided match for his opponents.

EDIT: I see some people think this will "tie" you to a certain MMR if you don't play ranked. What this would do is RAISE your NORMAL MMR if you get your ranked MMR higher than your normal MMR.

That way a skill increase would be reflected for normals. Nobody will be forced to "grind" ranked.

You're looking for problems that aren't there or are taking it too literally. This system would just to better represent skill increases gained in ranked play. If you take your ranked MMR, your normal MMR would remain the same. Only when your ranked MMR became higher than your normal MMR would the system do anything and all it would do is raise your normal MMR to your ranked MMR. The "gap" that would have to exist for this system to act is up for debate but the idea should cause minimal issues and stop pairing inactive diamonds with silvers and bronzes.