New Sej nerfs seem a bit... much.

Shadow Gilgamesh·May 19, 2015·102 votes·6,040 views

She totally needs nerfs, since she's almost permabanned.

But Flail of the Northern Winds (W) AoE damage max HP scaling down to 4/5/6/7/8% from 4/6/8/10/12% Flail of the Northern Winds (W) Max HP on hit lowered to 4/4.5/5/5.5/6% from 4/5.5/7/8.5/10% Seems pretty harsh.

The initial hit loses almost half it's damage and the DoT loses a third of it's scaling, those are pretty damn big nerfs to a move, I think the last time we saw a move hit that hard was when Warwicks W went down from 10 to 6 seconds in duration, and that went real bad for him. Seems like half the two nerfs would be more reasonable (10% HP scaling at max rank, and 8% max HP on hit)

I doubt the change would actually wreck Sej since she has more going for her in her kit than WW, but that's still a pretty big hit to a single move.

133 Comments

TeemoJenkinsMay 19, 201545 votes

It'll just make it so she'll go back on the Shelf. Cry cry's win again - back to Lee Sin cry cry's or going to have a new complaint target?

Dextix LTMay 20, 20159 votes

Lee, i can at least kill because hes not a tank, but having someone who builds purely tank, yet burst a squishy in like 3 secopnds or so while keeping them completely locked down is not fun.

CudyDarkyzMay 20, 201511 votes

Gragas

Malix FarwinMay 20, 20154 votes

{quoted}

he is definitely next on the chopping block.

FeathermaneMay 20, 20152 votes

That is the general Riot idea of a tank - someone who kills, but does not die. Chogath

Dextix LTMay 20, 20151 votes

Cho has 0 mobility and easy to dodge skills. I agree his ulti is really strong, but other skills are quite hard to hit.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbMay 20, 20152 votes

scream is pretty much instant.

CubedJusticeMay 21, 20151 votes

The scream is actually completely instant, the animation is the only delayed part.

FeathermaneMay 21, 20151 votes

He has summoner 4

Dextix LTMay 22, 20151 votes

Not sure if trolling or......

DengedenMay 20, 20152 votes

Not that I don't agree with you but... she was perma-banned, both in LCS and SoloQ. Granted, that's because everything else is weak as [...] but at least she might see more play (from people who still like her) now.

Drunk RummateMay 20, 20153 votes

{quoted}

It'll just make it so she'll go back on the Shelf. Cry cry's win again - back to Lee Sin cry cry's or going to have a new complaint target?

Back on the shelf for the FotM "OP champ" players.

Actual Sej players and mains will probably enjoy having their favorite champion off the permaban list.

CupkekMay 19, 201512 votes

That is a relatively massive nerf. I love playing Sejuani, but I do feel she's a bit too strong.

That said, the nerf to her on-hit % max HP is a huge issue. That ability is used to break down bruisers and other tanks, cutting it down by 50% is going to put her way behind other tanks with % max HP abilities. It'll affect her ganking and teamfighting, and I think that's the point. What I'm most worried about though is her clear speed after the nerf. It's already pretty abysmal and she takes some punishment in the process...

Frankly, I'd leave the on-hit %max HP alone and focus more on the magic damage that scales with HP, that's a really uncommon mechanic that (while perfect for a tank) isn't very prevalent on any other champion and should be outmoded.

SammystormMay 20, 20153 votes

Sej hasn't really ever had a clear problem since they reworked her. She still will clear just as fast on her first clear and have less damage without items after which honestly isn't really that big of an issue.

NuSix3May 20, 20151 votes

She takes a lot of damage on her first clear.

Dextix LTMay 20, 20151 votes

Just like about any other jungler?

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbMay 20, 20153 votes

Most junglers can do a full clear. Sej can't. She's plenty tanky, but her speed is pretty bad. Her abilities don't deal a lot of damage to the creeps early, tbh

Dextix LTMay 20, 20151 votes

Oh, she can, if you know how.

NuSix3May 20, 20152 votes

She takes more damage than other junglers. Jarvan has the same issue. With a 21/9/0 build and starting Krugs it went a little smoother, but still had to back after finishing blue buff. Could have been that I just got a better leash too. Sej isn't made to early gank anyway, so it's not too big of a deal.

Go into a custom game and do a clear with Diana if you want to see the difference. With no leash you'll easily be able to do a full clear on both sides. Elise can do a full clear and gank with full HP. Vi also puts monsters down faster than they can damage her and clear 1 side, both red and blue and possibly throw out a gank.

Dextix LTMay 20, 20151 votes

Route, leash and help on the gromp with no usage of potions and usage of smite > Wolves, usage of 1 potion > red buff, usage of one potion and healing up to full by smiting it > Bird thingies > ROck thingies and usage of smite > Blue buff. Because of her cc and ability to damage high hp targets she can clear the jungle in this certain route, which i tested many times. This works on all other champs.

Also about diana, that is total bullshit and you know it, her whole kit is badly designed for jungle and the only thing that helps her a little in there is a shield. I would even dare to say that diana is weaker in jungle and clearing than sehuani. Elise can ideed have a full clear with full hp, but dont forget that for all of her strenghts she was nerfed into oblivion. And vi, is just plainly broken, and another example of "Build tank, assasinate everyone" type of a champion.

NuSix3May 20, 20151 votes

I didn't say Diana was a great jungle (I'm not giving an opinion on that), but you can go into a custom game and do a full clear with no leash. It's not bullshit anyone who can right click can do it.

As for your jungle route, it's ideal for saving hp but there is a lot of wasted movement. You start gromp, wolves, go all the way to red buff, raptors, rocks, and then go all the way back to blue buff. Unless you're scared of an invade, or one or two of your lanes are getting pushed real hard early game it just seems more efficient to back after clearing half the jungle. But if it works for you, I can't argue with results.

Dextix LTMay 21, 20151 votes

Well, my route was just to prove that it is indeed possible to do a full clear with sejuani, so it is not really her weakness. And by the way, most junglers indeed do only half of the jungle, even if they have good clears, for example i always go back with my xin after clearing only 1 half of the jungle, so i would be able to gank with an item ready.

She is not as weak as someone would portray her, and her damage while building full tank is really, hard do deal with because she also has mobility in a form of a dash and lots and lots of cc.

GavranMay 20, 20152 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Zac

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Sejuani

It's arguably still better than Zac's post-nerf. Which other tanks do consistent max health damage while offering similar mobility CC and tankiness?

Live2LetDieMay 19, 20159 votes

Banned becuase they gave her items that are amazing for health, aka cinderhulk, then nerfed hard as hell because of said items. She will be put on the back burner again while other champs see more play. Sad day for the pig indeed

junglerboy16May 20, 20152 votes

Why does everyone just gloss over the fact that she had a pretty substantial rework that was a HUGE buff back at the end of season 4? This tuning should have happened then. Cinder hulk isn't what made her OP, it is what made people notice that she was already OP by making her even stronger.

KatrisaMay 20, 20158 votes

They need to be very careful. They have nerfed cinder hulk twice now and Sejuani once (rather significantly). She wasn't even on anyone's radar till the adition of cinderhulk (I played her all the time and she was mostly balanced before the item changes). I have to agree if they are going to layer nerfs like this they need to go more slowly so she isn't nerfed back onto the shelf where no one played her.

My fear is that she has a kit similar to Irelia in that Sejuani is able to do too many things. She is naturally tanky, she has a wall jump, dash popup, lots of slows, snap damage, team stun, all four skills do local AE damage, and with proper items her damage scales frighteningly well while staying tanky (like a jungle Nasus that no one actually expects and needs money rather than stacks).

Given the above for Sejuani to be "healthy" I fear she is always going to need to be under-tuned due to her kits overwelming number of tools. With this said I don't want them to change her kit again.

VenowolfMay 20, 20151 votes

The % max hp is a massive nerf the cut nearly to the half...

Penta PenguinMay 20, 20157 votes

Once again... we're going to nerf down a champion because of the environmental changes build up around them. So when the environment inevitably changes again, she'll fade back into obscurity, her fans will feel bad about the state she's left in, and Riot won't give a shit because she's not being played anymore (apparently her Ulti suddenly became too OP and needed a nerf just because more people are playing her). Have fun waiting for the random "we realize these champoins aren't played very much" buffs that come around a couple times every year.

NimbaMay 19, 20155 votes

I was qqing about sej nerfs being needed but this seems to be quite a bit more than necessary.

Immortal StrifeMay 19, 20155 votes

I wonder if Sej will be able to use the reworked Abyssil scepter. While I don't like the nerf, i am hopeful that her ban rate will fall, I played Sej before she became meta and I would like to play her again in the future.

CreationFlawMay 19, 20154 votes

I'm okay with this, to be honest :/ It's really not going to affect her that much, but people like to complain. So what you do a bit less damage, you still have a long ranged cc stun that you can hit from the bushes or get a five man stun with. She'll be pretty balanced with this nerf, just yah wait.

Dr PoroMay 19, 20155 votes

you're one of the people that say that thresh would still be OP with 0 dmg on everything including auto attacks right?

DAMAGE DOES MATTER!

FourVsFiveMay 19, 20154 votes

I Tweaked it a bit, what you think? maybe too small...?

Flail of the Northern Winds (W) AoE damage max HP scaling down to 4/5.5/7/8.5/10% from 4/6/8/10/12% Flail of the Northern Winds (W) Max HP on hit lowered to 4/5/6/7/8% from 4/5.5/7/8.5/10%

Lil SoybeanMay 20, 20155 votes

{quoted}

I Tweaked it a bit, what you think? maybe too small...?

Flail of the Northern Winds (W) AoE damage max HP scaling down to 4/5.5/7/8.5/10% from 4/6/8/10/12% Flail of the Northern Winds (W) Max HP on hit lowered to 4/5/6/7/8% from 4/5.5/7/8.5/10%

She is the highest winrate champion in the entire game. You think 2% less on those abilities at max rank will fix her?

And please don't suggest that winrate means nothing. It means something when viewed in conjunction with pickrate. If she was extremely uncommon but successful, like Malzahar, it would suggest only her mains played her. But her massive popularity + massive succes suggests that not only is she heavily overtuned, but so easy to succeed with that the majority of people who pick her still win, whether they know her kit or not.

RetillinMay 20, 20152 votes

You mean 2% on two different abilities (so 4% dmg nerf) on basically her ONLY dmg ability? Yeah, this is a major nerf that will see her back in the 4-7% pick rate.

Lil SoybeanMay 20, 20152 votes

{quoted}

You mean 2% on two different abilities (so 4% dmg nerf) on basically her ONLY dmg ability? Yeah, this is a major nerf that will see her back in the 4-7% pick rate.

A major nerf is justified. I'm not saying it isn't significant. I'm saying it just might be enough to make her stop being the most successful champion in the entire game uninterrupted for months on end. Besides, she retains her CC and her tankiness. If her current strength is so heavily tied to her damage, there's clearly a problem.

And no, it doesn't impact clear times too significantly, because it remains the same at rank 1 and only tapers off as your rank increases, around the time you're completing cinderhulk and clearing becomes incredibly easy anyway.

Krys StarMay 20, 20154 votes

The nerfs are fine. Yeah, they're a bit much but she'll still have amazing engage, team fight and control over a fight. It's just a fucking pity Gragas is not getting thrown under the bus with her...

Phoenix Kotori May 20, 20153 votes

Meanwhile there are zero fucking Gragas nerfs is debately the better jungler right now in the hands of pros or Nunu got a love tap despite being nearly as strong as them.

Enjoy Seeing Nunu and Gragas every fucking game after Sejuani and RekSai are nerfed.

Can't wait for the Gragas permaban.

Onimus TerlainMay 20, 20153 votes

FotM players ruin this game.

That said, this will likely just shift her build from W first to E first.

She still has all the CC that has made her a mainstay in the LCS scene for a while now.

It's just too bad that Cinderhulk made people realize tank junglers are good. People realizing tank junglers are good made people abuse the shit out of them. Abusing the shit out of them made Riot nerf them.

Classic cycle caused by people who only follow the LCS picks.

OxBakerMay 19, 20152 votes

RIOT doesn't appreciate the diversity the tanky meta is creating so they are slowly choking it out. They hope we won't notice if they just do it gradually over a number of patches.

Vegas DadMay 20, 20157 votes

{quoted}

RIOT doesn't appreciate the diversity the tanky meta is creating so they are slowly choking it out. They hope we won't notice if they just do it gradually over a number of patches.

Ha because sej/gragas/rek jungle every game is diversity. They just need to get gragas now. Sorry full tank cc junglers shouldn't also get good dmg, wait I forgot high mobility and aoe as well....

lDontLiftIcarryMay 20, 20152 votes

nah fuck sej She crowds out malphite jungle so hard.

percenteage damage champions all deserve to be gutted for their percentage damage. That simple.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbMay 20, 20153 votes

you're right Vayne

at least you can itemize against sej

lDontLiftIcarryMay 20, 20151 votes

she was nerfed to shit. Did you miss season 3/season 4? or did you not bother googling "vayne nerfs patch notes" because she's been nerfed for her damage to balance her out. Stop typing now, thanks.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbMay 20, 20153 votes

who stuck their dick in your oatmeal? Vayne is plenty strong in the tank meta. Quantity of nerfs mean next to nothing.

blubabbyMay 20, 20151 votes

The problem with Sejuani in my opinion is she has one of if not the best initiation ultimate in the game as well as a ton of tools. I don't think she can ever have anything more than undertuned damage numbers so long as she holds onto all her cc/teamfight presence.

KairyaMay 20, 20152 votes

While I agree with you, I have to point out that before the introduction of Cinderhulk barley anyone had any interest in Sejuani, although her CC abilities were the same.

blubabbyMay 20, 20151 votes

Well the thing with Cinderhulk is that it basically makes tanks' mid/late games come a bit faster. With both that and a bunch of tanks being in meta, Sejauni's having less of a hard time getting to her extremely strong late game. I think that's part of the reason why Sejuani's showing up. For such a CC heavy tank, she does a ton of damage and, currently, her mid-late game is currently almost guaranteed.

KairyaMay 21, 20151 votes

Yes, I know why she is strong right now. ( I main her since over a year now...)

You were the person who argued, that Sejuani is strong with just the CC. And she is (in my opinion), but looking back a lot of people seem to think, that CC alone is not enough. So it would be nice to keep her at a point where she isn't banned all the time, but also gets a little more attention than in s4. She needs to be nerfed, but carefully. But as I already wrote somewhere else in this thread: I could imagine, that they reduced her numbers so much this time, since they also want to introduce the new abyssal scepter, which should have a very good synergy with Sejuanis damage.

blubabbyMay 22, 20151 votes

I'm not trying to argue what makes her strong or what to do with her, I'm just acknowledging that she is strong and can either keep the CC or the damage. I was just pointing out that Cinderhulk alone wasn't what made her relevant again. I fully agree with you on every point though.