Early Jungling made EVEN HARDER?

Shadow Gilgamesh··120 votes·6,944 views

So today on the PBE the tier 2 jungle items (the ones that give you the enhanced smites and the full jungle gold bonus) got their cost upped by a hundred gold from 750 to 850. That may not SEEM like a lot, but considering right now almost every jungle champ has to B after 2 or 3 camps, that raise is really uncalled for.

Personally this will mean my weaker junglers like Wukong will be backing without enough gold to make the most important purchase, and even with the strong junglers like Vi will be heading out into the jungle for the second time with no potions, making the already difficult early ganks almost impossible.

We can't push a SECOND early B on junglers like we did when we hit them with the overpriced hunters machete, it's already really easy to fall 1 or 2 levels behind your solo lanes and be useless, forcing a second B to remain gold viable will almost assure they won't be exp viable.

159 Comments

DrMarshSwamp54 votes

Wait seriously?

I don't want to complain, but what the hell is going on with Riot's balancing team that they feel they need to make the jungle so unforgiving and pushing out even more Champions?

The only reason I can see this happening is if there are going to be some further changes to the jungle camps (perhaps making them a little less damaging), but I don't particularly see that happening anytime soon.

Pyro1 votes

The only reason I can see this happening is if there are going to be some further changes to the jungle camps (perhaps making them a little less damaging), but I don't particularly see that happening anytime soon.

There was already a change beneficial for junglers, and that was changing the Smite to a recharging system. We don't have any good data to confirm this, but generally it made early jungling stronger, with about one more Smite usage in the first 5-6 minutes. Basically even if you take your time to go back to base to upgrade the Machete ASAP, your Smite won't be ever "idle" and waiting off cooldown, wasting its uptime.

So all in all, Smite recharge system was a buff to junglers, now increasing the price of Machete items is a nerf. Not sure if the overall balance is zero. Generally in terms of gold gain junglers are somewhat okay-ish now, it's just the experience gain that still seems way lower than on laners.

maikokk9 votes

this is completely wrong. the smite charge system was an early game nerf to anyone who knew how to manage smite. if you time a B after a smite usage, you never wasted smite efficiency early game.

this was only a buff to mid-late game when you don't need smite to clear camps and you have the opportunity to smite a champion while drag is still up because you have a charge in store

Hilltop Sunset5 votes

I can confirm this, as a jungle main. Early game, you are smiting super frequently, which means the CD was essentially INCREASED by 15 seconds, since good junglers were basically smiting as soon was smite is up.

EnvyDragon6 votes

Not to mention the bug where the summoner cooldown mastery doesn't actually impact Smite charges anymore (just the 15-second wait period), so... it effectively went from 54 seconds to 75.

ChrisB55 votes

Very true... when stacking Smites were introduced, I felt like all the time I took to practice smite management had gone to waste. Not to mention Smite can be used up to two times now in team fights if they last long (even with two stacks fully charged it makes you wait to use them both consecutively). As someone who doesn't main jungle, I won't complain too hard as it makes it much easier... yet I also feel like this is a downside to the entire community as the game becomes less competitive! From removing DFG, Atmas, nerfing so many champs, nerfing mana regen, buffing energy champs accidentally, the game balance is quickly going to hell, and Riot is pretending like everything is okay despite the several complaints. It makes me upset because I never imagined this game going to all hell...

SeargentAnus1 votes

{quoted}

Wait seriously?

I don't want to complain, but what the hell is going on with Riot's balancing team that they feel they need to make the jungle so unforgiving and pushing out even more Champions?

The only reason I can see this happening is if there are going to be some further changes to the jungle camps (perhaps making them a little less damaging), but I don't particularly see that happening anytime soon.

They want to make it Lee only.

bumbertyr17 votes

i say we go back to last seasons jungle. more balanced than this crap.

Pyro1 votes

I'm not sure if I want to go back to Lee Sin, Jarvan IV and Vi dominating the jungle with their AD jungle item.

Wait a minute...

Duobyte8 votes

Actually last season ANYONE could jungle with spirit item. Every champion basicly had an option. Tank junglers, carry junglers and farming jungles were all viable. Lee j4 and vi were popular but werent over the top. Amumu, Rammus and fiddle dominated all brackets of soloq and even karthus could jungle effectivly.

RanmanReborn1 votes

Leave it to Riot to make another buzzword phrase like "strategic diversity," but then ignore the point when the jungle had ACTUAL diversity.

EdgarÅllanPwn9 votes

{quoted}

i say we go back to last seasons jungle. more balanced than this crap.

Last season's system wasn't balanced at all. The lizard. elder items made it so literally almost EVERY champion in the game could jungle one way or another, and that' s not what its bout. Because of this, on the normal junglers who DID do well, it was too much! Running through the jungle at full hp, always available to make a gank from 2m in, was very unhealthy

These changes defined helped bring back the original junglers, so we didn't see stupid things like morg jungle, teemo jungle, etc.

If you do it now you put your team at.

They also revamped the smite system to be better entirely.

if that means pushing out the people who don't understand how the jungle works, or forcing people to learn the new jungle, I am all for it.

There's still plenty of viable junglers, and it's not that hard. People just got used to how rofleasy s4 jungle is when s5 jungle is as hard as s3 jungle was.

Tiure9 votes

Why are junglers allowed to lane when laners aren't allowed to jungle?

EdgarÅllanPwn2 votes

{quoted}

Why are junglers allowed to lane when laners aren't allowed to jungle?

Um... because some champions have the required items need to jungle?

  1. early defense
  2. some sort of sustain(lfesteal, shields, increased defenses, CC, spellvamp, etc) 3)Mobility - Junglers without mobilty typically don't exist, if you are easily stopped from reaching an opponent you can't gank 4)damage on short cd(needs to be spells with enough dmg, on a low cd so you can kill the mobs before they kill you, or an AD champion that attacks. In other cases can be reflective passives like rammus or gromp)

im sure there's more but this is like low level knowledge.

SlytherinUmbreon2 votes

He didn't ask why certain champions are able to jungle and others are not, he asked why it's WRONG for champions you personally don't want to see in the jungle to show up there. Oh wait, it looks like I answered that question...

EdgarÅllanPwn3 votes

{quoted}

He didn't ask why certain champions are able to jungle and others are not, he asked why it's WRONG for champions you personally don't want to see in the jungle to show up there. Oh wait, it looks like I answered that question...

Actually he didn't even say that word. You inferred it. And that would mean my statement is correct. I don't see your response anywhere but it doesn't really matter. It's as simple as being tied to champion kits. Some flow with how the jungle works, and some don't. You CAN jungle with anyone... but it won't be ANYWHERE near as efficient as someone with a proper kit. So take that condescending stick out of your ass and apply yourself to some learnin because apparently you need to revisit lessons on comprehension.

SlytherinUmbreon1 votes

"Why are junglers allowed to lane when laners aren't allowed to jungle?" "allowed" http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/allowed verb (used with object) 1. to give permission to or for; permit: I did not infer it, the word "allowed" infers whether or not it abides by rules, not whether or not it's possible.

EdgarÅllanPwn3 votes

{quoted}

"Why are junglers allowed to lane when laners aren't allowed to jungle?" "allowed" http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/allowed verb (used with object) 1. to give permission to or for; permit: I did not infer it, the word "allowed" infers whether or not it abides by rules, not whether or not it's possible.

personally. Subjective. WRONG . Again subjective, and wrong use of words, since allowed is definite.

"it's WRONG for champions you personally don't want to see in the jungle" This isn't even a correct statement! You have it completely fucking BACKWARDS... he was complaining about JUNGLERS being able to play both roles, but most other laner's could not jungle well(aka 1 role)

Goddamn no wonder people suck at this game. Can't even pass 5th grade level reading comprehension.

Cale01715 votes

As an avid jungle main I've been pretty on board with most of the changes being made, but Riot's just pushing their luck with this one. Yes, junglers are usually a bit behind the rest of their teammates, and some have a difficult time ganking when the jungle is keeping them perpetually at about 40-60% health through most of the early and some of the mid game, but my god this is such a huge step backwards.

It's completely uncalled for. And this has nothing to do with early ganking champions either, because unless you're Lee Sin or Warwick you aren't sustaining NEARLY well enough to risk a gank before about level 5 or 6.

LankPants15 votes

Because Lee clearly wasn't being picked enough.

Señor Karthus9 votes

All the people commenting that this 100 gold increase is not a big deal don't have any fucking idea of what jungling is like right now.

Uiru7 votes

Riot: "Why are they still playing junglers other than Lee Sin? I thought we were clear with what we wanted them to do." ~Uiru

AtheosisX5 votes

Just makes sustain junglers even stronger. Not sure if that's their intention but that's going to be the result. Overall I don't think it will make much difference with most junglers, but it will definitely hurt the squishy ones (who are already hurting).

Lean into it5 votes

so what are champions like amumu supposed to do? you can only clear the first 3 camps (last one takes you down to like 100 hp) and recall are you really supposed to recall and buy nothing but potions now? its like riot want to remove all jungle ganking influence

RanmanReborn1 votes

"something something toxic something overpowering something something blah blah blah toxic."

They don't have a clue what they're doing in regards to this game.

ImHerVoice5 votes

thats fine I'll just tax 2-3 full waves from my laners riot doesnt care right? So why should I. Fuck jungling. Im a roaming tax collector =]

Orangesilk4 votes

I would be on board with this if the usual suspects like Lee and Vi got the appropiate sustain nerfs.

FoggyPaws4 votes

Wait, what champions are you taking to the jungle? LeeSin Nasus Rammus RekSai Rengar Shen Sion Skarner Taric Tryndamere Udyr Volibear Sejuani Had no problem clearing the whole jungle before going back.

Dryditch3 votes

XinZhao Nobody ever remembers poor Xin.

FoggyPaws4 votes

I was just pointing out the ones that I use. All I'm saying is that there are plenty of junglers that don't have to recall after gromp/blue/wolves, or kruggs/red/raptors -3 for an educated opinion is sad. +1 for remembering Xin though

Dryditch2 votes

You're absolutely right about junglers not needing to recall after the first three.

Not sure why people are downvoting... might they just have shit rune pages?

I mean, I run all Attack Speed reds, Armor yellows, MR blues, and I have no idea what kind of shitty quints I have on my rune pages, since I haven't saved enough for the LS/AD/AP quint sets I eventually intend to buy.

Another interesting thing to note, by the way, is that Poppy can clear Jungle with no runes and lv 10 masteries. I've done it twice on a test account, didn't need to back until the very end... think it was actually Krugs that killed me after I'd taken Red/Blue and everything else.

FoggyPaws3 votes

I love to Poppy jungle but yeah it's probably people's shitty runes. Hell I use AS Reds, Armor Yellows, and depending on the champion, Armor Blues, or AP Blues, 2 EXP quints and a Move Speed, or Attack Speed quint, I've never had problems jungling. Maybe people still underestimate starting Gromp/Kruggs, and they're trying to start Blue/Red with champs that have a hard time doing so nowadays.

Dryditch2 votes

+1 for Poppy Jungle. People really need to learn how to manage their health/abilities better, or stop taking freaking Teemo into the jungle.

junglerboy162 votes

I haven't tried her in the new jungle yet, but I was thinking she could get going pretty well because of her W and passive helping reduce damage so much in the jungle. What skills do you start with her in the new jungle?

Terff4 votes

lotta people underestimate Taric jg... He always ganks from behind ;)

FoggyPaws2 votes

Taric jungle is insane, he turns into a teamfighting monster, +AP and +AD to any allies nearby, -Armor to anyone who gets caught by Shatter, a direct damage stun, and a heal quite nice

I take Taric top lane too, poor Tryndamere doesn't know what to do.

CataclysmCrash4 votes

Looks like I'm maining Fiddlesticks this year.

Blue Collar Bear3 votes

To be honest, it's not that big of a detriment to junglers. It's a detriment to their first clear and early ganks.

It's not that hard to take defensive masteries, nor is it hard to take spell vamp or lifesteal quintessences.

Eiskalt795 votes

Lee Sin, Rek'sai, Jarvan, Vi, and Pantheon get off fine. Oh look at that, they're already dominating every other aspect of jungle play.

Sejuani, Nautilus, Evelynn, Amumu, etc are the ones who get punished by this when they were struggling to begin with. Instead of being able to clear their one (safe) side of the jungle, back and get Trailblazer, then continue to the other side to finish the clear, they're going to be forced into fighting another camp with minimal XP and put a bullseye on their head for the meta junglers who know where they'll be and how low they are.

This ends up being a BUFF to the already top tier junglers as they can clear the extra camp no problem. Meanwhile, the struggling junglers are going to have to clear a side, back and heal, do another camp, back and buy, then finish and gank, putting them at an even further XP disadvantage when the role is already regularly equal or lower than the support.

MrSc0tty3 votes

Riot games working to change the jungler role to "Lee Sin and pals" since 2012.

St0rmln3 votes

I don't know why but it seems like they want sustain to be the only thing junglers have. This means no more ap jungle, no more assassin jungle, and rarely tank jungle. If you don't have sustain then your not a jungle (according to riot it seems).

YoungFarmer3 votes

yah to be honest I dont even enjoy playing jungle any more its just too much of a hassle

Jari2 votes

So I can't clear my camps on Udyr and then buy a pink ward for one of my lanes anymore on my first back. Well damn that pink's the reason people are okay with my shitty jungling.

Demented Lemur2 votes

this is a PBE change it not guaranteed to go to live so quit complaining

Horrow8 votes

It doesn't matter that its PBE. Its the fact Riot is even considering this a possibility.

Ark Angel HFB2 votes

I know this seems wasteful and odd... but I caught on to the idea of just never doing the raptor camp and my jungle is much MUCH better...

That camp is the one that really eats your hp pool... the others are manageable... sure it is a bit more walking... but at most it is 7 to 8 seconds from that camp to ether wolves or krogs... so really... just NEVER do the chickens till late game.

DoFr1 votes

the Raptors are devastating early levels, they are the sole reason why i have to B everytime...

cursed raptors..

Killstrado1 votes

Skip em until five

junglerboy163 votes

—and get half xp for them...

Magma Lux Mid4 votes

Kill the little ones first.

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