So what's the point of the PBE if feedback is ignored?

Shadow Gilgamesh··152 votes·8,289 views

So the 5.2 patch notes are up, and despite the response to the tier 2 jungle item cost increase being negative almost everywhere I looked (these forums, the reddit, surrender@20) there is it in the patch notes.

Everywhere called it out as an unnecessary nerf to the already weak early jungling over a problem with the first blood mechanic, that would have a significant effect on a substantial portion of jungle champs despite Riots claim that the change would only effect "a very specific situation".

I get that sometimes big changes have to be pushed through despite pushback, like the overhaul of masteries or the new jungle, but when a small change has a much larger negative change than it seems like was intended, that seems like exactly what the PBE is for, to find those unexpected consequences and let you rethink or rebalance things, but it seems MORE like you use it as a pre-view system than a beta for testing out experimental changes.

127 Comments

Ulquiorra99562 votes

To be fair, Riot takes player feedback...

...as long as said players are playing Lee.

Narasimha3 votes

You...do know this HURTS Lee especially, right? Lee loved the cheaper price because it meant his invades and early ganks meant more. This change favors afk farmers and champions who could clear 4 camps before their first back. Lee is not in either of those lists.

Bears Dont Care14 votes

{quoted}

You...do know this HURTS Lee especially, right? Lee loved the cheaper price because it meant his invades and early ganks meant more. This change favors afk farmers and champions who could clear 4 camps before their first back. Lee is not in either of those lists.

Um... dont know how you play but he can indeed do 4camps

SerBlaise2 votes

Depends on the camps and what you start. But I usually B after 3 camps with Lee. I mean, anyone can do scuttle crab after 3 camps...it doesn't fight you.

Jesus is Savior14 votes

{quoted}

Depends on the camps and what you start. But I usually B after 3 camps with Lee. I mean, anyone can do scuttle crab after 3 camps...it doesn't fight you.

You know what's going to happen, right?

All the weak junglers are going to try and do scuttle crab after their 3 camps. They will have 100hp.

*le enemy Lee walks over*

*le enemy Lee presses Q once in the general direction of the crab, possibly even into fog of war*

*FIRST BLOOD*

Riot is going to create the very problem they wished to prevent: easy snowballing.

Bears Dont Care4 votes

{quoted}

Depends on the camps and what you start. But I usually B after 3 camps with Lee. I mean, anyone can do scuttle crab after 3 camps...it doesn't fight you.

I am not counting crab.

SerBlaise2 votes

I know if you start kruggs you can usually sustain a lot better, going kruggs, red, wolves, blue, which is four camps. But then I end up with no red buff after a back, and barely any blue buff, and I really want my upgraded machete for ganks. So i find an efficient Gromp>Blue>Wolves back and buy machete and a few pots, then get my red before I gank is the best way to go, at least for my own playstyle. I just hope I will still have enough gold now for machete and maybe 1 pot.

Meanie409 votes

Otherwise, **** the rest of you.

Especially you Sona players.

Keevalroy38 votes

"These changes are experimental and by no means the final product."

I would tend to disagree. Our feedback is worthless if literally nothing is being considered. Why should we even bother?

SmokingPuffin23 votes

PBE is largely for testing things to see whether they work properly.

Things like detecting that Riven became broken with the stacking CC changes.

Circuit Bear17 votes

This has been stated a ton of times already. Riot basically outright said PBE didn't matter in one post. I don't really want to trace it down. But everyone was arguing against the most recent nerfs against Sona, and the Rioter just said "yea, well, these are going to live no matter what"

rinsujo2 votes

That was Riot Jag - his public relations seem to be hit-or-miss at best.

Horus215 votes

Completely agree with this post.

The jungle is SO limited in viable champions and they just limited it more.

Yfrappefort11 votes

{quoted}

Completely agree with this post.

The jungle is SO limited in viable champions and they just limited it more.

They are just making even more sure everyone plays LeeSin and JarvanIV .

Oh? You want to play some tank junglers (Nautilus ,Zac ,Sejuani ,Rammus ) that were already struggling before we made that stupid change? Well sorry, they are not flashy enough for L$C big plays!

Strategic diversity my ass...I don't even watch LSC anymore because I am disgusted by it and how it ruins balance (yet another freaking season full of Lee $in).

exiledFromBadmen5 votes

Actually Jarvan struggles at early clears as much as Sejuani

RogueWill2 votes

Jarvan does the clearings with decent hp, problem is he takes forever to do them. I know most people max Jarvan's Q first because of the damage but if you sink 2 point of W (lvl 1 and 4) you actually can clear the 5 camps or 4 camps+ gank easily. Sejuani needs to recall no matter what, she does't have enough hp to gank

SpecterVonBaren12 votes

I will give it to the art department though, those guys usually do a great job listening to responses.

Baron Von Bangin9 votes

It's more for finding bugs or exploits, not for game balance opinion. Some feedback is sometimes taken into account (like art assets) but for the most part when it comes to opinions on balance Riot sticks to their guns.

Myrddin15 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron Von Bangin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cjGAB3vN,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-01-27T23:02:04.274+0000)

It's more for finding bugs or exploits, not for game balance opinion.

Azir - every bug i reported made it to live

Just saying

Quepha3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron Von Bangin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cjGAB3vN,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-01-27T23:02:04.274+0000)

It's more for finding bugs or exploits, not for game balance opinion. Some feedback is sometimes taken into account (like art assets) but for the most part when it comes to opinions on balance Riot sticks to their guns.

good thing they fixed all the bugs the players caught for azir and the cass rework before they hit live OH WAIT

rinsujo3 votes

NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPE

Zuldin8 votes

Why not just make the jungle item not upgradeable until 3:30 into the game? That way the jungler will have to actually do his first clear of the jungle (unless they think waiting 90 seconds for item is more efficient), and getting first blood won't enable him to snowball his jungle item.

OKIGorgon7 votes

Is it time to bring outdated 2-1-2-no jungle meta to quickly destroy top and get to mid game, thus not giving junglers enough time to enjoy free jungle?

zzuit5 votes

this is why no one wants to play jungle anymore.

Kowe The Ewok5 votes

PBE: The Cassiopeia rework is horribly unfun and doesn't fit her initial design. Riot push push push, live push

PBE: The new jungle destroys variety, renders tanks useless and is much to snowbally Riot push push push, live push

PBE: The Zed nerfs absolutely fail to hit the mark. The issue is not his attackspeed. Riot push push push, live push

PBE: The jungle already is horrbile, DO NOT NERF JUNGLERS FURTHER! Riot push push push, live push: OW; YOU WANT INCREASED SMITE COOLDOWN, ITEM COST AND MONSTER HEALTH AND SPEED? HERE YOU GO

Raptamei2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cjGAB3vN,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2015-01-28T12:06:22.849+0000)

PBE: The Zed nerfs absolutely fail to hit the mark.

I see what you did there.

YOU BEEN WARNED4 votes

That's truth right there. The majority of changes are previews, not experiments. Most of it actually goes to live and very little crazy or experimental stuff is cancelled on the PBE.

Erockandroll4 votes

Players (notably LCS) Find new problematic ways to exploit the system.

Riot fix said problem.

People complain about Riot fixing exploit because a hand full of champions are viable, ONLY because they use said exploit.

I'm going to be honest. If Riot finds a Problem, they should fix it. And if champions were viable only because of that exploit. then they are viable for the wrong reasons. Fix the Problem, then look at the problemed champions to figure out how we can make them viable for the Right reasons.

Shadow Gilgamesh13 votes

But this change isn't fixing the PROBLEM, it's fixing a symptom and having side effects.

The problem was that first blood was easy to snowball off of if a jungler got it before camps even spawned, so they made the jungle item more expensive for tier 2. But the side effect is that the extra 100 gold means that anyone who has to B after 3 camps (which almost every jungle champ can manage) will be WEAKER than a jungle champ that can hit a 4th jungle (significantly less champs than can make 3) for the SAME REASON that the increase was supposed to fix, that one jungler has the item before the other and therefor has the advantage over the other jungler and earlier chances to viably gank.

A better fix would be to make first blood worth less till 2 minutes, like they already did with assist gold to handle the issue of level 1 team fights providing a substantial advantage to the victor.

Jesus is Savior5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shadow Gilgamesh,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cjGAB3vN,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2015-01-28T02:14:07.488+0000) A better fix would be to make first blood worth less till 2 minutes, like they already did with assist gold to handle the issue of level 1 team fights providing a substantial advantage to the victor.

It's funny, because first blood DID used to be worth less until like 4 minutes into the game, but they reverted that a while ago (start of preseason I think).

And it's double funny, because a red replied to one of our threads, and I brought this up in reply to him, and I got upvoted a ton.

But NOPE. Lets just raise the cost of the jungle item because of issues with first blood, and create a ton more problems for weaker junglers as a side-effect. Rito doesn't care.

You know what makes this even funnier? Junglers who didn't need pots in season 4 could already abuse this. I got plenty of first bloods on Master Yi in season 4, with my machete/no pots, and then went back and bought my madred's razor.

Riot didn't care then, and it was fricken EASY to start with no pots back then. Why does Riot care about it now?

(As a sidenote: I haven't done the calculations, but, could someone like Warwick, who CAN start no pots in the new jungle, still buy his upgrade if he gets first blood? Or will he be 30g short?)

VardenSalad6 votes

When the fuck did having an advantage suddenly not translate into an advantage? Invading early is a huge gamble in solo queue, considering the number of people you have to coordinate. The jungler getting the kill isn't preferred to laners getting it, why shouldn't jungle have an advantage?

When did 'anti-snowballing' become so petty?

Doom Brownies4 votes

The PBE gives you a chance to prepare your anus for the upcoming patch.

Sharkb83 votes

"pre-butt engagement"?

NorthernDruid4 votes

You know, one of the stupidest consequences is that this also delays your first core item by 100 gold if you don't finish your jungle enchant first.

Crai Crushna4 votes

This change wasn't for us. That's why it went ignored on the pbe forums. This change is for the LCS.

Sharkb82 votes

Aren't they all? Most changes I see are in direct response to dominating/getting owned in LCS games...

ll Akagami ll3 votes

Its not just about feedbacks. Its also about the results they see in the whole healthiness of the game. Here is what that item did.

  1. Stops jungler from getting 3 camps and buying the tier 2 item.
  2. Stops quick opponent junglers from invading your 2nd buff and taking it before you get to it because you recalled after 3 camps.
  3. Stops the quick 3 camp gank with chilling smite specially on junglers with CC like J4

ONLY thing different now is you have to do 1 more camp before you can buy your damn tier 2 item. Not a big deal. Its actually pretty good.

Shadow Gilgamesh28 votes

Except it IS a big deal.

  1. A lot of weaker early jungle champs and lesser skilled jungle players CAN'T hit that 4th camp, which creates a NEW split of good and bad that the jungle REALLY didn't need as none of the 5.1 strong from the start (and strong all game) junglers are hurt, but lots of full tank and slow to start junglers will be even weaker in 5.2. For example: a Vi will head back into the jungle with tier 2 after first back, Eve will not. J4 will have tier 2, Wukong will not, etc.
  2. This change will make hitting your second buff more enticing and the people who were banking on you not going to it for an easy steal can just wait for you to show up with low health trying to get a 4th camp and kill you.
  3. The recall after 3 to get the 2nd tier jungle item already delayed level 2 ganks as soon as they hit 2, adding one more camp just makes waiting to level 3 more enticing, nothing else.

But the reason they gave for the change wasn't ANY of those, they said it was because a Jungler can pick up a first blood and back to get the tier 2 right away, which is a problem with the FIRST BLOOD mechanic and NOT with the jungle core item. 400 gold on ANYONE before 2 minutes isn't exactly going to be a good time for their opponent, it's not an exclusive problem to the jungle.

SmokingPuffin9 votes

The jungler diversity problem is a serious problem.

Half measures like making it possible for Nautilus to drag himself through 3 camps on no health, needing to back immediately, and getting tier 2 item won't fix the problem. (Most) Tank junglers need buffs. That strategic diversity thing RIot says they want needs to actually happen.

ProfDrDeath2 votes

The buffs some of the tanky/tank junglers got have been actually quite decent.

Amumu Hecarim Skarner Sejuani Chogath - those guys have no problem clearing an additional camp, or clear the 1 camp + 2 buffs path (which features enough gold to buy a jungle item). Just remember that smiting Red is essentially a HP potion.

Which tank junglers have still starting problems? Zac NautilusRammus

LordOfTheLeague4 votes

I dunno about rammus and zac but nautilus can do 2 buffs + 1 camp and gank no problem. He can even do a 4th camp before he back.

RavenKouhai3 votes

The PBE's more a bugtesting platform at this point.

Jesus is Savior9 votes

{quoted}

The PBE's more a bugtesting platform at this point.

Meanwhile I start trailblazer, switch to stalker blade, and uh..... 95% of the time my smite ends up in the bottom-left buffs instead of the middle after I do this.

Anyone who tested smite-switching even just once on the PBE would have found this.

But nope, this bug went live.

Gorzke3 votes

Well, since Gameplay decisions are tested much before than going PBE, and once they hit there they are just to test bugfixes (Because this is Riot's mentality: "We know better than you, even if you are proving that 100 is higher than 10")

So really PBE is to test bugs, and ignore feedback. I'm starting to think that they have a godly concept of themselves at the Game Balance team.

RedTrinketGoneHa3 votes

Like I had mentioned, disable all Item buys for junglers after your first buy to 3:00 mins then re-enable them. Voila you have added balance to early game junglers.

CLus2 votes

{quoted}

Like I had mentioned, disable all Item buys for junglers after your first buy to 3:00 mins then re-enable them. Voila you have added balance to early game junglers.

This could work provided the fountain still healed them. It could be a unique characteristic of hunters machete or something. Definitely not the most elegant of solutions, but this is STILL better than their idea.

Axxuka2 votes

Cassiopeia Sona

Nobody said a positive thing about their reworks, they still made them out.

'Nuff said.

Fun Part : Cassio and Sona STILL get nerfed for being lane bullies and that was an important point the reworks were ''supposed to solve''.

Treyen2 votes

riot doesn't know what they want from the jungle, big surprise.

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