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I understand if you get 1 of the kills but if you kill steal all of them as a utility support...

JavelinJoe··5 votes·1,255 views

If you are a utility support, and you take one of the kills, I get it. You did not try to; You dealt a bit more damage than you thought; You wanted to secure the kill. Its whatever. If it was questionable if your ADC was in range/able to get it, then yes an assist is better than nothing.

But if there is no question that the ADC (or another carry) can secure the kill and you still take it anyways, you are griefing/trolling. You are not a carry "support" like Brand, Malz, Zyra, etc... who can use the gold for better damage output. You are a utility support who does not need a lot of gold since your vast amounts of utility in your kit is what makes you beneficial, which, if you did not know, has no immediate correlation to how much gold/items you have (usually the damage scalings are low and base damage is higher since you are more meant to be a tankier champion and usually it is a matter of how often you can use them and not how hard you abilities hit).

So for all of you players who are new to or thinking about picking up support, just keep in mind that when on a utility based support (Blitzcrank Thresh Leona Nautilus Braum Alistar are some examples, basically tanky with a lot of hard CC and engage tools), try to not KS your ADC or any other of your teams damage dealers as much as possible. They absolutely can use the more gold better than you can.

21 Comments

DuskDaUmbreon3 votes

{quoted}

They absolutely can use the more gold better than you can.

Are you certain about that? All of those that you listed are tanks, and they typically end up starved for both gold and Exp. But their items are made to keep them, you, and your entire team alive. An ADC's only job is to deal damage, unless they're Ashe, in which case they have a LOT of utility. Obviously the support shouldn't take them all, but, oftentimes, since they don't need to reposition so much, they can see things you can't. Like that Zed coming down the river, that'll be there by the time you manage to kill that enemy Caitlyn, so they'll just go in and kill them so that you at least get some of the gold, and you don't die and give the Zed 200 more AD. Or maybe there's just no way you'll actually kill that champion, because their flash is 2 seconds off of CD, so Leona will just E in and Q them. Some gold is always, ALWAYS better than no gold.

JavelinJoe1 votes

You wanted to secure the kill

then yes an assist is better than nothing.

I know. I said it in my post. Like in the first paragraph. But let me restate it.

#If you are a utility support, and you take one of the kills, I get it. You did not try to; You dealt a bit more damage than you thought; You wanted to secure the kill. Its whatever. If it was questionable if your ADC was in range/able to get it, then yes an assist is better than nothing.

Now, let me also mention that if the ADC has just the assist gold, they then have less items, and thus have less damage. If the utility support has assist gold, they still have all of their utility. They even have a choice of 3 gold generating starting items.

Think of it like this. For example, if the bot lane has a 2v2 fight and both ADCs die and both supports live. But the one ADC got a kill while the other got an assist, then that one who got the kill now can come back with a item 3134 and the other only has 2 item 1036. That is a massive difference in lane pressure. More so than the support with item 2049 can give (mind you I am not talking about ganks or whatever, just a 2v2 bot lane).

Mig891 votes

(mind you I am not talking about ganks or whatever, just a 2v2 bot lane). This invalidated your whole argument. Having a SS earlier is more valuable than a bit more damage because knowing youre in a 2v2 is always better than having a bit more damage and then the fight turning into a 3v2 It is always better to secure a kill than letting someone go. If the ADC cant do the damage to kill someone, thats their problem. As a support main I will let them have the kill if it is clear and obvioous but if its plausible the enemy gets away, im securing that kill. Gold is not wasted on anyone unless they just dont know how to play. Role doesnt matter. If the ADC is bad enough to never get the kills, tell him to grab a SS because he is no longer the carry.

Aptest3 votes

i am sick of ADC players treating me getting a kill as me griefing them.

Sometimes I get a kill because i find a chance opening for a combo. I'm not going to apologize for going for a combo you didn't see or was not able to execute because of your kit or creep block, even if leaving the opponent up with low HP may have led to you eventually getting the kill.

Sometimes the adc is slightly out of range. Why shouldn't I secure it? I don't know if he's going to manage to follow up later.

Sometimes its really important I land that CC and oh no the CC has damage on it.

Games where I end up getting alot of kills come in two flavors: sometimes the ADC is shit. He does stupid, I follow up correctly and clean up. And the ADC gets upset because he thinks he's being awesome and im stealing his glory. Its not the case, im just on the receiving end of a "wtf mr adc can you like, not do that?" train. And yes in these cases my skills and my burst are going to be late to the party because im not the one having a brain freeze.

Other games where I get a lot of kills, I have the other team's number. I get the juicy picks and a lot of times the plays have to be executed fast. So I execute them and get a bunch of kills. Then the ADC gets upset and basically tries to tilt me using chat. I understand what's going in your head: i will get him to "understand he is stealing" and not take the kills anymore and then the juicy plays will be mine. But that doesn't work like that. The play comes with me getting the kill. You take me off my cool vibe? then there's no play and no kills for either of us.

Geez mate, if im having an awesome game don't bring me down, ride the awesome train to victory. Don't you want to be carried? And if im cleaning up after you, don't look at it as you making the mad plays and me KSing you 24/7... Its me being the cleaning lady and you being the baby who puked all over the floor.

you know how many times i've seen a dead in the water opponent that didn't need to be secured? i saw this once in all my time playing. ONCE. this means one thing to me:

the scenario you are describing never ever happens. you may "think" it happens a lot, but you are wrong. Your judgement of your damage is wrong, your judgement of your risks is wrong, your judgement of everything is wrong and clouded by bloodlust.

so here is my PSA to you:

if this happens in game, and you think about having this opinion you just wrote here on the forums in chat, don't. Just mute yourself and STFU. You're either tilting the guy who's saving your ass 24/7, or tilting the guy making the mad plays and making you ahead in assists and CS. Either way you lose.

There's no greater advantage in the game than your ally doing all the right moves. "I need the kills to carry" is not needed, when someone else is already doing the hard carrying. Learn to ride the train.

JavelinJoe1 votes

A utility support should not look to hard carry the game. They are there to SUPPORT the team. To get the carries fed, to protect the squishies, engage, disengage, heal, shield, poke if possible, peel, that kind of stuff.

ADC literally has carry in the name. They are a flawed class who can not do much else besides be carries. A few of them can manage to be supports (like MF) but even then it is iffy. If they are not able to be damage dealers, they can't do anything.

Häßlich1 votes

That boils down to the adc thinking they are better than they actually are. Entitlement will not make you play better. Coordinating with your support, anticipating what he will do, and using that knowledge to outplay your opponents is the fastest way to securing those kills yourself as the ADC.

Above all that, if you blame your support, don't be surprised if they leave your lane and support someone who actually can carry the game. Don't blame your support. Don't rage if a couple kills don't go your way. If your support kills the enemy carry, and their support survives, with neither of you dying--that's a win! Celebrate wins, don't rage over them.

Mig892 votes

Dude, If anyone is carrying, you let them carry. Im not sure you understand what League's definition of a carry is. Its someone who puts their team on their backs and forces a win. If that ends up being a Janna, idgaf, we won. If my adc is useless and were cracking their nexus 25 minutes in because the janna built AP and is killing people, who cares. Bad ADC mains have this mentality in lane where they position to farm, clearly are out of range to secure kills, and they get mad when all the get is an assist. ADCs get ALL the farm in that lane. If the support does all the work to get a kill, be happy he let you get in on the assist.

Aptest1 votes

I am not going to debate you on what your position is supposed to do and what mine is. That is not my point. My point is this:

utility supports have a very low damage output. carries have both burst and DPS. You get kills by applying damage on target. if you see a utility support with a kill, it means either that the carry was not capable of outputting damage on target, or he wasn't doing it because he isn't playing the scenario correctly. If you see a utility support with a bunch of kills, it tells you the carry wasn't relevant enough in the engagements because if he had been, the low damage no burst support basically CANT get a kill.

and if you don't believe me i invite you to go into a bot game, grab a proper support, do the usual no-damage build that supports do, and try to out-CS the guy next to you in lane. he has a damage build, so he'll be grabbing all the CS and all the kills on the bots.

In any case both of these scenarios have one thing in common: the support is carrying. And if you are the ADC in this situation you have to be very quick in deciding which of the two types of ADCs you are - the one that is having a bad game, and should probably play conservatively and get carried, or the one that isn't paying enough attention to some very good available plays, in which case you should adapt your play style to allow yourself to nab them kills.

What you don't want to do, is interrupt the "I am getting carried" train you are riding; Which your nagging has a good chance of doing.

your rant is maybe correct on the theory level of the game. But it is also 100% based on a false perception of yourself as someone who is capable of carrying the game "if only i get the kills". There is a reason you havn't gotten the kills and it's not the support; Because the support has limited damage so how we he get the kills if you are applying damage on target?

The reality of the game is, the support is doing something right that you are not doing. So if you want to win, you should either understand what it is and start doing it yourself, or just not rock the boat. The former is the better option, btw.

JavelinJoe1 votes

if you see a utility support with a kill, it means either that the carry was not capable of outputting damage on target, or he wasn't doing it because he isn't playing the scenario correctly. If you see a utility support with a bunch of kills, it tells you the carry wasn't relevant enough in the engagements because if he had been, the low damage no burst support basically CANT get a kill.

So basically your argument is that all carries should have to fight their support for every kill. Where if the support ends up getting it, it is the ADC's fault for either being bad or not being masters of the game where they are skilled enough to time their damage around the support's? Why should they have to contest a 6th enemy? If the support gets it, I don't mind if it was close, or if the enemy would have gotten away, or if the ADC would have died, or if the ADC's latest shot left them with like 20 hp and the support's following attack killed them. Those and similar situations are all perfectly OK times to take the kill. Hell, I even encourage them to try it. But if they try to contest a free last hit kill for no other reason than stealing the kill, that is griefing. Remember that ADCs have much more expensive items than the tanky, utility based, support does.

Aptest1 votes

my argument is this: When you see your team's support carrying your noob ass on his shoulders, don't get triggered.

and in addition to that: you are being carried, where you actually should be carrying yourself. So get your act straight.

Around999People2 votes

I'm a supp main, a Thresh main even. And I don't get why this is downvoted. Yes, I shouldn't KS every kill. Yes, one or two kills for me is fine. That q to make sure the enemy can't flash out killed them, oops. That e to pull the enemy back in tower range got me the kill when tower shot it before you did. That's fine, nothing to worry about. But, if you're fighting and I come in and kill the enemy every single time then yeah, I'm being a bad supp.

As for the gold comment. As the other person mentioned, I love to get extra gold as Thresh. Give me 2 kills early on and you will never die as the adc. I will be able to get their adc to waste everything on me and not be half health. So, kills on those tanks supp's is actually very helpful to the team. Espeacially in an all dmg comp where I (the Thresh) am the only tank.

JavelinJoe3 votes

I did not mean that it would be useless or bad, I just meant that carries, ADCs especially, literally turn gold into damage because of how they are designed, and that it is better for the ADC to have 3 kills over the enemy ADC then the support to. That allows for a massive pressure difference in trades. Sure a 3 kill thresh may be able to provide a good amount of defense in fights, but in general trades and poke, the ADC is who is getting those kills will be far more valuable.

It is also why those supports can play perfectly fine being 1-2 levels under and a few thousand gold under the rest of the team. It is their kits that give them strength, at least more so than items to a point. Especially pre 6 where all that extra gold is usually gonna just mean you have a sightstone and maybe boots or a tier 2 starting item earlier. Sure that helps prevent ganks and roams, but it does not offer a whole lot else in terms of combat stats to keep the upper hand in those 2v2 fights.

If that same situation was on say the ADC, where they were 1-2 levels under and a few thousand gold under the rest of the team, then that would create serious issues in fights because sure, you could be making nice hooks on thresh and have a good amount of shielding and CC, and what not. But you then lack any large damage sources to make those plays fruitful if the carries, in this case the ADC, has less items and levels than their opponents. They just end up getting 3 shot, bullied out of lane, etc... because of the item/gold/level difference.

Around999People1 votes

We're in agreement lol

JavelinJoe1 votes

Yep seems so.

Mig891 votes

But at the same time, early game, damage does not out shine defense. If that 5/0 thresh is able to block skill shots and get more abilities off because he has a cdr item and the ADC can freely trade, thats not a bad thing. If a 5/0 zyra/brand/velkoz/morg/ etc can zone off your whole lane so you can free farm, thats not a bad thing. Theres a reason the support got those kills and it aint because the ADC let them.

PureSilvrr2 votes

Malz isn't a support ;-;

Proxy3451 votes

KS=Kill secure lol

Yaśuo Main1 votes

also KS= Kill Steal

Proxy3451 votes

Kill steal only exists in CoD lol

Yaśuo Main1 votes

and so do 1v1's, but league has everything CoD has lol

Paquay1 votes

If I am killing champions, maybe my ADC should get better at last hitting?

shrug

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