Talon Nerfed to a "Leap"

Radiant Wukong·Dec 28, 2016·11 votes·2,073 views

Enemy mid laner picks , as a response I pick .

The old strategy against Veigar was EWQ or EQWQ (combo based off how far he was from his turret).

With Talon's new passive and his new Q = old EQ, I was like "ez lane for me."

On top of the super hard range nerf, you should have seen the look on my face when Veigar used Event Horizon, me pressing Q on to Veigar then... STUNNED MID "LEAP" [slayer-jinx-unamused]

E used to be a "blink", so whenever a put up their walls, I would just appear behind them. Now you're telling me Veigar stuns me, Karthus gets his debuff (meaning he'll end up melting me with his passive after I kill him) and Azir's wall will knock me back!

FIX! FIX! FIX! I want Talon's blink back!

32 Comments

ZezockaryDec 28, 201616 votes

It was changed to add counterplay to Talon's opponents. As a Talon main, I can accept that. He may need slightly higher numbers in this new rework, but honestly he isn't nearly as bad as people make him out to be. Against Veigar buy a hexdrinker into edge of night and you shouldn't have many issues.

Radiant WukongDec 28, 20161 votes

That's exactly what I did, only item 3156 though, didn't want to get item 3814 because it's so obvious when it's active and Veigar just stays out of my ridiculously short Q range.

But if counterplay is the issue to change his blink into a "leap", then why Fizz Elise Leblanc Kassadin Zed MasterYi Nocturne Shaco Yasuo ... ?

ShadòwDec 28, 20166 votes

as assassin you should not engage in obvious situations.

coming from unexpected positions is what's important on playing an assassin

and every other champion you mentioned has either a delay on their blink or it is sitentional.

MelledoneusDec 29, 20161 votes

Sitentional?

ZezockaryDec 28, 20161 votes

Edge of night takes off the first spell you take when engaging, it is very hard for a veigar to do something like QE before you get into range to get him.

Fizz has most of his power budge in his E.

Rappel has like a 25 second cd or something.

Leblanc's is a dash, it only blinks back to the original spot.

Kassadin's is his ult.

Zed's requires positioning to do his maximum dps and his other one is his ult. I don't really like that he has two but at least using his W as a blink lowers his damage output.

Master yi's is an important defensive spell that helps keep him alive because he requires time to kill his target and is very squishy.

Shaco's is a significant part of his power budget.

Vi's is a dash unless you are talking about her ult, for which that is the reasoning.

Yasuo's is both conditional and an ult.

Radiant WukongDec 28, 20161 votes

Fizz can still use trickster after playful to deal that same damage.

Rappel has a 14 second CD which is the exact same CD as Event Horizon.

Is LeBlanc's really a dash? I'll have to test that.

Kassadin's "ult" has a 2 second cooldown.

Zed doesn't require positioning against a target as squishy as Veigar. We're talking about Veigar here, ijs.

Vi's ult goes through all CC, including Veigar's Event Horizon.

Yasuo isn't unconditional, if you get popped up, he blinks to you, nothing conditional about it.

CatastropDec 28, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Heir of Lito,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eWGaPrRO,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2016-12-28T17:12:44.701+0000)

Is LeBlanc's really a dash? I'll have to test that.

Yes. If you can clearly see the champion move forward, it's in most cases a dash. Only LB's return portion on W is a blink.

Radiant WukongDec 28, 20161 votes

So if she uses her W to past the wall, she'll get stunned?

CatastropDec 28, 20161 votes

Yep, it's why it's important to fake out your engages so he wastes the cage. After it's disappeared, he's a sitting duck whose only chance for survival is to hang back under tower or try and kill you first. Which is a lot harder unless it's late game where he has 1000+ap Q's, otherwise he needs to hit W.

ZezockaryDec 28, 20162 votes

What I was saying about Fizz is that because of his E being such a strong ability his Q and W are fairly weak.

Elise's rappel's cooldown is 26/23/20/17/14. It is typically maxed last and she doesn't build much cdr, so it is around 26 seconds for most of the game.

Yes, it is.

Kass's ult starts a bit higher and goes down to that, it is 6/4/2. Besides that, it is his ultimate ability, typically ultimates are powerful abilities gated by high cooldowns, but Kassadin's is a much, much lower impact for a much lower cooldown.

Vi's ult does go through all CC, but again, it is her ultimate. It is a highly impactful skill tied to a high cooldown. Btw, Malphite's ult does the same thing.

That is literally the definition of conditional. "Subject to one or more conditions or requirements being met; made or granted on certain terms." In this case the condition is that the opponent has to be knocked up. No other skill in the game requires something like that as far as I am aware.

Glory ln DeathDec 28, 20161 votes

For the last point, Gnar's ult is slightly similar, since he has very minor control over his Mega transformation.

ZezockaryDec 29, 20161 votes

Oh, true. Much less conditional, but it is still conditional, my bad.

You could also consider Shyvana's conditional, since you have to have full fury to activate it, but really the fury is just a cooldown that doesn't count down when dead and counts extra when you autoattack stuff.

ReZisT LustDec 29, 20161 votes

Camille did someone say escape with ults?

TheKemperorDec 28, 20161 votes

Fizz, Nocturne, Vi, and Yasuo all dash, for the most part. They don't really have blinks in their kits, with Fizz only sorta having one because of his invulnerability on his E. However, his Q is a dash and is treated like one.

Radiant WukongDec 28, 20161 votes

All the examples I'm using are specifically for going through Veigar's Event Horizon, stay on topic. The point of this post is Talon has absolutely no way to go through event horizon and I shouldn't have to buy an expensive item to counter 1 ability from a single champ. Event Horizon is the only CC that really bothers me in this game and Talon used to be my way around that.

Glory ln DeathDec 28, 20161 votes

Why exactly does Talon "deserve" to have a built-in counter to Veigar's wall? Doesn't Veigar deserve to be able to counter at least a few assassins with his wall just as much?

This gives more diversity among assassins - now you have an actual reason to choose a different champion.

Radiant WukongDec 29, 20161 votes

Because Talon is squishier than Veigar who almost always builds a item 3027 .

Talon = reduced range on W, the speed of W, reduced range on "leap", reduced damage, reduce ult blade speed.

Veigar's range in itself is an advantage over Talon. It's even possible to get close to him.

TheKemperorDec 29, 20161 votes

If a Vi dashes through a Veigar EH, with her Q, it stuns. Same with Fizz. Yasuo is also stunned if he E's through it.

Radiant WukongDec 29, 20161 votes

Wrong. if Vi R. she goes through it. If Yasuo R, she goes through. If Fizz E, he goes through it. Don't act slow.

If Talon QERW, right click, anything at all! He gets stunned!

Even Akali can W to the other side of it!

SnowplosionDec 28, 20161 votes

LeBlanc is q dash, dude. By Yas I'm going to use you means his R because he has no actually blinks. Noc also doesn't have a blink ability.

AckelopeDec 29, 20161 votes

Noc's ult does make him CC immune though, which is probably why it was mentioned.

captainkaigerDec 28, 20161 votes

Vi doesn't have a blink. In fact, in the world of dashes it's actually one of the worst because it has no resets, has a longer cooldown than most, and it forces her into the fight.

Same with her ult, the only upside there is that her ult gives immunity to stuns while the animation plays out (except for Camille). If she goes through a veigar gate, the stun will still play out on her as mostly normal, but now she'll be stunned in the middle of your team AFTER getting to her target

Alex h8721Dec 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It was changed to add counterplay to Talon's opponents. As a Talon main, I can accept that. He may need slightly higher numbers in this new rework, but honestly he isn't nearly as bad as people make him out to be. Against Veigar buy a hexdrinker into edge of night and you shouldn't have many issues.

This- A competent talon player will still wreck veigar in lane. Bait his e, ask your jg to just show their face in lane, watch how fast that circle comes out, and early game the CD is nice & long which gives you either a good window to trade, or allows you to zone him from cs and stacking w/ q.

ZezockaryDec 28, 20162 votes

I mean to be completely honest I would probably be ganking bottom lane or placing a deep ward in enemy jungle instead of asking for a jungle gank, then come back up, pop edge of night, and go in from a flanking position to kill him or force a flash.

But yeah, him not farming Q is a priority.

Alex h8721Dec 28, 20162 votes

And not getting caught in the E stun once he hits the level 6 powerspike, because 99% of the time that's a walk back from the fountain haha.

ZezockaryDec 28, 20161 votes

Hexdrinker usually helps with that considerably, if it is not up then play safe or roam. But yeah, try not to get caught in E stun. Pretty big priority.

Maximum MordeDec 28, 20162 votes

It was overall a buff though because he can go over walls now with his new mobility spell. You have to look at the entire package.

Suspicious XebraDec 28, 20162 votes

Just take Katarina into Veigar . Hell a lot of people pick him into her. Usually doesn't work out well for them. Late game you can delete them in an instant.

Remove JungleDec 28, 20161 votes

boards weebs: blink has no counter play so no! talon takes brain now to play.

Radiant WukongDec 28, 20161 votes

I still got a S, been using Talon religiously after the rework (check my match history), first time against Veigar after rework though, it tilted me to intentionally Q to Veigar thinking I would blink to him, only to be stunned and obliterated! Started the match 0/1, afterwards I wiped the floor with him. It was the last match I played.

TheKemperorDec 28, 20162 votes

So you played Reworked Talon for a bit, faced a Veigar, then intentional used your dash through his stun. You knew it was a dash, yet you just hopped on through the Event Horizion. Why? What were you expecting to happen?

captainkaigerDec 28, 20161 votes