Graves is a prime example of why bruiser adcs are unhealthy for the game

Succubús GF·Jan 2, 2017·42 votes·3,087 views

There just isn't a reason for him to build like a bruiser. It just doesn't really make sense for him to get the tankyness and the burst of a ranged carry

41 Comments

Big LincolnJan 2, 201733 votes

his kit's fine

his kit + phantom dancer + death's dance + red smite is not, though

NeidoxJan 2, 201724 votes

Lets throw warlords in there for good measure!

VesemirJan 2, 20172 votes

Well than Vayne's kit is fine too. Twitch is fine aswell. Hides in corner Have you guys ever played Urgot? He is ridiculously broken yet no1 lifts a finger.

Edit: Well hiding in corner quote wasnt enough for you to understand sarcasm lmao.

Big LincolnJan 2, 201711 votes

Vayne's kit is fine, it's when Riot decided that she should get burst crit that fucked her up.

AirKingNeoJan 2, 20171 votes

They reverted that though.

AdriqnoheeJan 2, 20172 votes

She always had a crit on her Q tough, the only thing they did was give her some extra damage when the skill gets lv 5, and to combine the crit chance of her AA and her Q, before both could still crit but each damage had their own chance, so you could crit on both, only one or in none, but the chance was always there.

Backup4nowJan 2, 20171 votes

I'm pretty sure that information is incorrect. The Q bonus damage was added after crit, and could never be multiplied by crit.

AdriqnoheeJan 2, 20171 votes

Bug Fix: Fixed a bug where Tumble's bonus damage was using an independent crit roll instead of being tied to the same crit roll as Vayne's basic attack.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Vayne/Background

Backup4nowJan 2, 20172 votes

Weird. I guess I just never noticed until they buffed it to 70% for a short time frame, and... you know... the part where Riot constantly cut out any empowered auto crits, like nasus and xin zhao. My bad.

Big LincolnJan 2, 20171 votes

You didn't build shiv/IE like you do now because it rolled separately. At the very least, it wasn't as common as it was now

It's also more that now this is the meta build, Riot should consider it a red flag that one of the best DPS champions in the game is opting to build for two-shots.

AdriqnoheeJan 2, 20171 votes

It doesn't matter if its only meta now, the point is that it was always there, people just didn't do it.

ChaoticPineconeJan 3, 20176 votes

You realize what a huge buff that is, right?

Lets say you have 50% crit from IE and Shiv. Previously, youd have a 50% chance for the base auto to crit, 50% chance for the Q damage to crit, 50% chance for the Shiv lightening to crit. Since each probability is independent of each other, the chance of all 3 critting is about 12.5% chance. Now its a flat 50% - if the underlying auto crits, everything crits.

Vayne was always known for her silver bolts. Now she has increased potential for frontloaded burst along with her already sustained damage burst.

TFBaamJan 3, 20171 votes

no its 25% the statikk proc doesnt go with her q buff.

ChaoticPineconeJan 3, 20171 votes

V4.2 The passive magic damage will now only critically strike if the associated attack critically strikes.

It wasnt recent, but that change happened. It was only after BOTH changes happened that people started to build crit-Vayne. Even when it was 25% (50% chance for the Q crit, 50% chance for the auto+shiv crit) nobody built crit.

EvilUnicornLordJan 2, 20176 votes

He seems to absolutely suck in bot lane, the role he was intended for, and be all-powerful and completely broken in top. I'm not condemning the grit passive, it would be interesting to have an ADC that wants to get in your face, but it just seems to be too strong in the wrong places.

TurquoiseYoshiJan 2, 201713 votes

I don't think that his reworked version was meant for bot lane, tbh.

Only Play DariusJan 2, 201712 votes

His rework was meant for botlane. It was completely unexpected that he would clear the jungle so efficiently and they just ended up balancing him around that since it went with their goals of increasing the versatility of the ADC class

5000000000000000Jan 2, 20175 votes

Really, they didn't realize how good he'd be at jungling after adding the knockback on hit?

Photos of GhostsJan 2, 20174 votes

Non sequitur. He can build like a bruiser, what's not fine is how he still damages. But not how tanky he is. The issue is the lack of drawbacks due to his kit and ratios, not the fact of building him more tanky.

AnagsJan 2, 20174 votes

He snowballs hard and scales well. But he isn't out of hand right now really.

He is easy to put behind top lane and his jungle really relies on him getting fed quickly.

Put him behind early or just don't feed him and you can easily deal with him. If he gets fed then you could be in trouble but that makes sense.

He is fine. And overall one of the better reworks after they made a few more changes.

BakedLotionJan 2, 20175 votes

{quoted}

He snowballs hard and scales well. But he isn't out of hand right now really.

He is easy to put behind top lane and his jungle really relies on him getting fed quickly.

Put him behind early or just don't feed him and you can easily deal with him. If he gets fed then you could be in trouble but that makes sense.

He is fine. And overall one of the better reworks after they made a few more changes.

i didn't know healing for half your hp per auto was healthy

UltîmaJan 3, 20171 votes

Graves sure feels healthy after healing for that amount though.

Ditching the cigar probably helped too.

ømgJan 3, 20171 votes

speaking in hyperboles isn't healthy either

TeCoolMageJan 2, 20174 votes

ranged carries shouldn't even have burst lol

FlitcheeJan 2, 20171 votes

He is not a ranged carry. He plays more like a burst bruiser that a carry. In fact, hes basically a melee carry with some range, but has a damage cost if you use the range.

Asayake 5150glowJan 2, 20175 votes

{quoted}

ranged carries shouldn't even have burst lol

Wut.

Every mage in the game...

TeCoolMageJan 3, 20171 votes

I meant range auto attack based carries. ADCs. Or maybe teemo, idk.

Also Lulu doesn't have burst

Kitty ClarissaJan 2, 2017

Lucian Corki Quinn MissFortune Jayce Draven Tristana
they all have some form of burst damage and they are ranged carries

6SfoolJan 3, 20172 votes

Sounds like you facetanked a graves thinking you could outburst him, and it didn't work. He's pretty balanced and he has a LOT of counterplay, so I don't see the problem.

Jet SettJan 2, 20171 votes

I mean he gets beaten out by most any melee carry in a 1v1, with his dash and smokescreen as his best tools to dealing with them. Riot nerfed him so he gets half the normal amount of resistances when kiting an enemy, and his AOE from his abilities is decent but not over the top in terms of damage.

Graves being tanky was one of the ways Riot tried to create unique diversity among ADCs and if he doesn't retain his mild tank stats (and I say mild because no one considers the fact that he'll rarely ever have his E stacked all the way, especially with the new changes to how it is generated) he'll need to be compensated elsewhere, and the only way they could would just make the rework pointless altogether.

DanjengJan 2, 20171 votes

The thing is, their goal to make a diverse ADC roster made Graves so different, that he's not even played in the role anymore. Usually top or jg now.

Jet SettJan 2, 20171 votes

Well it worked for diversifying the Marksman category.

Wînter FoxJan 2, 20171 votes

There's only one bruiser ADC

VesemirJan 2, 20171 votes

Bruiser "ADC". You meant Bruiser/Assassin/Duelist. Apart from jokes Twitch, Cait and Vayne are the only problematic adcs in the game. Quinn is pretty damn strong aswell.

DarkPh0enixJan 2, 20171 votes

This is why Urgot was a thing, he was the perfect counter ADC. Cute you picked this "Graves" dude, I'll ult you in the middle of my team and make it a 4v4, not like he was useful for anything else anyway.

AcidTheWarlockJan 2, 20171 votes

Urgot is a bruiser adc.

He's just as good at being a fighter as being an adc.

LordGeovanniJan 3, 20171 votes

the whole class has this problem though its not noticable veruss mages (wasnt against assassins either before their rework except rengar) but for tanks and fighters the de-randomization of crit (larger crit chance on all crit items) made playing fighters feel bad you lose half of your health before you reach ranged squishies and they dont even have to kite you because you lose the other half of your health while fighting them because you cant out damage them nor do you have burst. to kill an adc (mage etc ranged champion) you have to hope they walk into an unwarded bush you have to be an assassin with out any tools to do so (less damage less utility and less crowd control). makeing crit chance so reliable added to adc damage and survivability because of lifesteal more damage and more reliable damage means more healing from lifesteal (not to mention armor hp and mr items all took a hit.)

þaby ghostJan 3, 20171 votes

I played a game where I was not only lvl 1 5 manned but had to go top vs a graves because there was a garen mid and I figured as nidalee may have a better shot. I know nidalee is squishy there is no question, but Graves could not only all in me lvl 4 with roughly 1000 hp but any damage i got off with my spears was just earned back as he farmed. I already know nid pretty much loses to graves in match up, but why can he build maybe 20 ad and crush me? Then build enough hp to solo dive me at lvl 4? Come on now riot. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

TreyhovaJan 3, 20171 votes

Cause you were a champion that is not known for her laning strength and Graves has a good early and late to make up for his weak mid?

þaby ghostJan 3, 20171 votes

There is no mid game its laning and snowballing.

TreyhovaJan 3, 20171 votes

Still, saying he is broken cause he did good against a bad top laner isn't a great reason to nerf him. A good many top laners can 1v1 him, even if he does get a lead, you just don't fight him early.