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To the people who think that nerfing damage would result in a tank/enchanter meta

D357R0Y3R··9 votes·3,303 views

please tell me then please tell me why in the past, we had metas where tanks and enchanters weren't meta AND we didn't have an insane damage output?

why on earth would you say that nerfing damage would create a tank meta when history proved the opposite.

In season 7 we had tanks literally being assassins while being meta, the 4/3 maokai just ran on your adc and killed him in 3 second with deadman plate and sunfire. At that point of the game was damage high? YES

In season 3, tanks were out of the meta except Zac and Shen. The meta toplane was literally full ranged toplaners (Elise, Nidalee, Kennen, Jayce, Ryze, Lulu, Vladimir) with the exception of Zac and shen. Was it a tank meta? No, was damage high? NO.

From season 2 to season 6 damage was not high , and tanks being meta or not did not depend on how much time they lived, it always depended on how much damage they dealt. Release Zac was meta for years because he could engage and remove half of your team's hp.

"but then, it meant that damage was high..." No, tanks used to deal damage but overall teamfights lasted a fucking long time while right now it ends really quickly. Why am I talking about that? it's because if your nerf tank's damage and if you nerf everyone's damage it won't result in a tank meta, tanks need damage to be viable as well you can't expect things to become tank meta if you nerf a tank's damage.

It's exactly the same for enchanters. Janna went from 20% pick rate in pro in 2018 to 0% after her W had -5 damage, JUST -5 DAMAGE so imagine what happened if you nerf her damage even more.

The truth is that if you : -make MR pen lvl dependant like lethality -Remove protobelt (which is heavily abused right now) -remove duskblade passive -Nerf triforce -Nerf sterak's insane amount of AD -Remove Zeke from the game

the game would be much more fun to play WITHOUT forcing any meta

the 6 things above are what makes teamfights so short, nothing else

MR pen is disgusting, you get true damage after 2600 gold, and if the enemies buy MR your penetration become more efficient with void staff until they have 100 mr (math can be found on wiki). And I like how Kennen Lissandra and galio become better assassins with protobelt

And nobody talks about item 3078 item 3053 because the boards are full of mage mains and bruiser mains anyway. Legit right now, all triforce users except immobile melees and Vi (who got replaced by camille) are disgusting af

27 Comments

WashyMoney10 votes

This is untrue. Damage WAS high in season 3. For every time you see ANY assassin or mage 1-shotting you now, the same could be accomplished by the same champion in season 3.

People acting like it wasn’t completely normal for Gragas to remove you from the map before you could blink. Or for you to be farming one second, then grey screen the next as Rengar kindly relieved you from living. We can go on about Kassadin, Kha, Nidalee (almost 1-shot with a spear).

The difference in season 3 is not that squishies were harder to kill, irs that tank items didn’t suck. So even a lot of bruisers in the top lane would build mostly tank items after their core. Same with the jungle. Warmogs on ADC. So it meant that not only were the carries doing less than current glass cannon builds, but also took less.

Same with mid mages, rushing negatron cloak wasn’t uncommon either. But these options keep getting nerfed.

Runes and masteries don’t help, but they are a very small part of why damage is high.

RevertCritOrAFK2 votes

{quoted}

This is untrue. Damage WAS high in season 3. For every time you see ANY assassin or mage 1-shotting you now, the same could be accomplished by the same champion in season 3.

People acting like it wasn’t completely normal for Gragas to remove you from the map before you could blink. Or for you to be farming one second, then grey screen the next as Rengar kindly relieved you from living. We can go on about Kassadin, Kha, Nidalee (almost 1-shot with a spear).

The difference in season 3 is not that squishies were harder to kill, irs that tank items didn’t suck. So even a lot of bruisers in the top lane would build mostly tank items after their core. Same with the jungle. Warmogs on ADC. So it meant that not only were the carries doing less than current glass cannon builds, but also took less.

Same with mid mages, rushing negatron cloak wasn’t uncommon either.

Except in season 3 i felt like i could actually join fights without being instantly killed, but whatever "damage was high in season 3" even though there were more defense options for everyone item 3102 item 3026 i always expected the burst from gragas and lee sin and kha but there always way to position around them.

but since new champions and people really could care less about their flash now since they can dash away it feels like i just get killed every 5 minutes if i attempt to do anything other than farm, i will always die unless i basicly one shot someone my self or burst people to 25 percent health.

D357R0Y3R3 votes

{quoted}

This is untrue. Damage WAS high in season 3. For every time you see ANY assassin or mage 1-shotting you now, the same could be accomplished by the same champion in season 3.

Assassins always oneshot because duh, they're assassins

Mages? Allow me to doubt Syndra who was the mage with the highest burst was not meta until around season 4

People acting like it wasn’t completely normal for Gragas to remove you from the map before you could blink.

No they did not, thanksfully he got reworked around 2014 just when he became meta (because before, he was picked like 1/10 of the time)

The difference in season 3 is not that squishies were harder to kill

they had 42 base mr instead of 30, they all had more defense

Right now adcs are all 6 offensive items, even GA gives ad Before, they had GA/banshee and 4 offensive items

But these options keep getting nerfed.

that's the problem

WashyMoney1 votes

Lol. Syndra was troll tier 36% win rate for the longest time. I don't even know how you could say Syndra has the highest burst in the game. She has some of the highest potential burst at some points, but nowhere near the highest. A late game Viktor always has higher burst. A mid game Annie always had higher burst (shorter range).

Annie or Orianna being able to 1-rotation a squishy is nothing new. Don't know if you want to call Kennen or Gragas burst mages, but yeah, they did the same thing.

Regardless, nerfing triforce isn't really the move here. Steraks is OP, sure, but the bigger problem here is that bruisers can build 3 (pretty much) offensive options instead of sacrificing them to build defensive options. Because its now the optimal build, because defensive options suck.

Before there was a trade off - usually it was optimal, or at least neutral to sacrifice offense for defense. So going full damage would be seen as risky with potential payoff. Now going tanky options is pretty much trolling since you lose so much power in the 1v1 and teamfights.

Edit: Also, completely untrue about the MR point. I can't double check for every champion, but I picked Caitlyn randomly. She had 30 MR since release https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFNFY6-gaDA

If anything, she has higher base MR now (because of .5 MR scaling per level) than every before. So this is just completely untrue. Unless you're talking about runes?

Moody P2 votes

why are you using modern champions to compare to season 4 syndra? Viktor was a DOT utility mage before he started getting reworks and Annie was a support at that point in time

WashyMoney1 votes

I get things mixed up. However, I'll stand by it. You can do the math on a champion like Orianna. She isn't magically doing more burst now (any significant amount) even with new runes, comparing season 3 items to now.

However, before you sacrificed CDR for burst - which once again, benefited tanks more than squishies.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

nobody had 30 base mr because everyone went full mr runes on blue runes

Moody P3 votes

From season 2 to season 6 damage

so until keystones made damage BS we were alright

D357R0Y3R2 votes

Not only that

Riot buffed base ad in season 8, which buffed triforce and sterak Riot introduced protobelt, and Zeke Riot introduced duskblade's FRONTLOADED passive (it was backloaded before) Riot buffed MR pen in season 8

RevertCritOrAFK2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eM0cTQyV,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-07T11:25:26.732+0000)

so until keystones made damage BS we were alright

Only Keystone that's BS is Conqueror

the rest are fine outside of DH even if it has been nerfed to hell it's still is a infinite scaling keystone which means as games go on for longer this rune will be Broke_n_ again

i just wish the stat shards actually gave real defense options 5arm/6mr/90hp is basicly just god damn worthless and maybe press the attack was better than what it is

D357R0Y3R2 votes

{quoted}

Only Keystone that's BS is Conqueror

? Conqueror is used by like 4 champions, it also takes 4 seconds to proc

meanwhile comet adds a free 100+20% ap ratio damage to your burst

yea, conqueror is the only problem!

Daddy Ants3 votes

{quoted}

? Conqueror is used by like 4 champions, it also takes 4 seconds to proc

meanwhile comet adds a free 100+20% ap ratio damage to your burst

yea, conqueror is the only problem!

Careful, biased mage mains will downvote you to hell.

Can't call anything they use OP!11

Jamaree3 votes

{quoted}

Careful, biased mage mains will downvote you to hell.

Can't call anything they use OP!11

To be fair, you can possibly dodge the comet.

RevertCritOrAFK1 votes

{quoted}

To be fair, you can possibly dodge the comet.

To be Fair you Can dodge the Game, :)
it does not have 45 percent cdr and can just throw out another like your cooldowns don't matter at all nor does your mana.

Jamaree1 votes

{quoted}

To be Fair you Can dodge the Game, :)
it does not have 45 percent cdr and can just throw out another like your cooldowns don't matter at all nor does your mana.

What does that even mean or have to do with anything?

RevertCritOrAFK1 votes

{quoted}

What does that even mean or have to do with anything?

The joke is mage items are overpowered and give so many free stats you might as well dodge anytime someone picks a mage,

arcane comet's extra little bit of burst means nothing to me and is easily dodged. because even without it you would die anyways unless you were a bruiser.

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

To be fair, you can possibly dodge the comet.

When 90% of mages have a slow/stun/root to guarantee it landing?

uhm, sure

Sillae1 votes

{quoted}

When 90% of mages have a slow/stun/root to guarantee it landing?

uhm, sure

->possibly

Jamaree1 votes

{quoted}

When 90% of mages have a slow/stun/root to guarantee it landing?

uhm, sure

I did specifically say possibly.

RevertCritOrAFK1 votes

{quoted}

? Conqueror is used by like 4 champions, it also takes 4 seconds to proc

meanwhile comet adds a free 100+20% ap ratio damage to your burst

yea, conqueror is the only problem!

Jax MasterYi Riven Darius Tryndamere Irelia Yasuo Fiora Draven

Just 4

D357R0Y3R1 votes

yi goes for lethal tempo

riven is shit with conqueror

Jamaree1 votes

When was the tank meta again, season 5 right? Give me a second to check.

Yeah, Season Five the tank meta.

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

When was the tank meta again, season 5 right? Give me a second to check.

Yeah, Season Five the tank meta.

S5 and early S7

III BAKURYU III 1 votes

True but games weren't 25 mins long.

Meany Sting1 votes

{quoted}

And nobody talks about item 3078 item 3053 because the boards are full of mage mains and bruiser mains anyway. Legit right now, all triforce users except immobile melees and Vi (who got replaced by camille) are disgusting af

You do realise that if you nerf triforce the ones to suffer the most would be mostly immobile melees who dont scale that well so rely on triforce for damage. Udyr loses like 10-15% of his damage, and since he cant even catch people out that easily he wont have enough damage to make people afraid of him in melee. Hecarim who builds triforce as his only damage and then full tank, might as well have no damage then if triforce is overnerfed. Why be afraid of hecarim if after his innitial burst of maybe 1000 damage, a tank sion top who built no damage at all, exept maybe steraks out dpses him. And there is many more, unless with triforce nerfs comes weak triforce users buffs. A lot of champions rely on triforce to increase their otherwise average dps, while having low to no mobility or beeing gated by long cooldowns on cc skills so after innitial cc they might as well just tank, and not build triforce.

Snowbrand1 votes

{quoted}

The truth is that if you : -make MR pen lvl dependant like lethality -Remove protobelt (which is heavily abused right now) -remove duskblade passive -Nerf triforce -Nerf sterak's insane amount of AD -Remove Zeke from the game

the game would be much more fun to play WITHOUT forcing any meta

the 6 things above are what makes teamfights so short, nothing else

And I like how Kennen Lissandra and galio become better assassins with protobelt

And nobody talks about item 3078 item 3053 because the boards are full of mage mains and bruiser mains anyway. Legit right now, all triforce users except immobile melees and Vi (who got replaced by camille) are disgusting af

Not sure how it would work to make mr pen scale with lvl, could be interesting. I haven't seen a protobelt user in a while, idk what you are on about. It's not that good on most champions. Maybe rework the passive, but don't remove it. That would make duskblade useless. Yea, Triforce might need a slight nerf. Sterak I think is fine though. Bruisers needs the shield and the ad to be viable and able to survive in teamfights and dives. Huh, again what are you smoking? I don't see much of zeekes in my games and when I don't really notice it.

Agree that no meta would be fun, the problem is that it's kinda impossible to do, because there will always be something that is a little bit better and things in the game that changes what is good or bad (like scuttle or towerplating).

But teamfights don't have to be that long. Just look at SKT that finished the teamfight in just a few sec but is still one of the most exciting ones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa7KbSfAajg

Protobelt don't make them assasins. It doesnt give much ap at all...

D357R0Y3R1 votes

{quoted}

. I haven't seen a protobelt user in a while, idk what you are on about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu7uVhIunU4

That would make duskblade useless.

give it the old passive, or buff the stats/the vision passive

Bruisers needs the shield and the ad to be viable

They don't need the AD to be viable bruisers especially immobile ones need to be tanky as hell Sterak needs the ad removed, and have armor

Huh, again what are you smoking? I don't see much of zeekes in my games and when I don't really notice it.

watch high elo games/pro games

Protobelt don't make them assasins. It doesnt give much ap at all..

play against lissandra/galio/kennen and you will see

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