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Graves Q delay nerf -- rethink it.

Niyumi··1 votes·1,126 views

So, Graves is suddenly popular, and no one knows how to properly play against him, so they go and lose. Same thing happens with Vayne and every other ADC in the game, so instead of making Graves garbage-tier, can we rethink the nerfs?

His Q, as it is, does a lot of damage, sure, but that's ONLY if you land both explosions. His kit rewards him for excellent positioning, and his Q deals full damage if you hit terrain with it, since it instantly explodes. By adding a delay, you're effectively halving the largest portion of his damage, making his kit, overall, kind of trashy; if you go through with this change, you need to make the thinner part of the effected area a little wider, since a no MS (and he has a 325 base MS) Azir could easily get out of it in time with this change.

A nerf means tweaking kits so that they're not overbearing, not totally destroying them so that the champion isn't even comparable to other champs. Have you SEEN Miss Fortune? Have you seen her damage? That's targeted, too. So why nerf Graves so harshly, when the only reason he's strong is because no one understands that walls are bad? I can play a squishy mage and beat Graves, so why can't anyone else?

Just think things through for once, Riot, instead of doing knee-jerk changes like the Poppy E + Q interaction that totally ruined her kit.

Nerfing the numbers is fine, I don't care. But don't go and make his Q basically useless unless someone is CC locked.

31 Comments

SaltyKracka9 votes

/Poppy perfectly viable in three different positions\

"Waaaaaahhhhh they absolutely ruined her!"

/Graves absolutely dominating three different positions\

"Don't nerf me, bro!"

Take your shitty rationalizations elsewhere.

Niyumi1 votes

Imagine making Ashe have to charge for half a second before she can auto, or making Nasus' Q have a variable delay on it every time you use it. That's, basically, what they did to Poppy and now Graves. It entirely destroys the fluidity of their kit, and takes away a lot of potential they had.

For Poppy, you could use E on a large jungle camp, Q across a camp to hit it all, and clear that way. You could E someone into the wall, Q in the direction they'd run, and land both ticks instead of just one. You could E to a minion and throw a Q at someone out of range. Etc.

For Graves, his Q is 80% of his damage. You're effectively halving it with this change, since only a moron would get hit by both ticks, even if you hit the wall with it. So, basically, he's going to go back to never being played, since he can't reliably do damage.

And, you know, both Graves and Poppy are INCREDIBLY easy to play against. People are just too fucking stupid to realize that walls are bad.

Cowgirl Ed4 votes

So, basically, he's going to go back to never being played, since he can't reliably do damage.

You talk like it's a bad thing

SaltyKracka3 votes

Mmm, yes, here come the shitty rationalizations again.

Perhaps instead of shouting about how everybody else is shit and they should totally stay away from the walls, you should instead meditate on the prevalence of walls in the game.

JQKAndrei1 votes

Imagine making Ashe have to charge for half a second before she can auto

If Ashe's attacks would do 150-200%+ AD, and also be able to crit for double that damage, then even if she had to charge for .5s she would be disgustingly op.

Niyumi1 votes

Okay, now imagine that her autos are a very, very thin line telegraph that even a 325 base MS Azir can EASILY run out of by just walking. Sound fun?

JQKAndrei1 votes

Riot could remove Grave's Q altogether and he would still be op.

Niyumi1 votes

Well, no, since most of his burst relies on his Q and R.

JQKAndrei1 votes

And autoattacks, you know, there's more burst in half of grave's kit than in many other burst type champions.

AHeroNamedHawke5 votes

> Excellent positioning > Literally any wall or structure within 1000 range

u joshin me bro

Niyumi1 votes

Literally one of the thinnest telegraph in the game, too, unless you stand at the very end of it. Not exactly easy to land both ticks, even when it instantly blows up, since, you know, most people have enough mental fortitude to dodge.

AHeroNamedHawke3 votes

{quoted}

Literally one of the thinnest telegraph in the game, too, unless you stand at the very end of it. Not exactly easy to land both ticks, even when it instantly blows up, since, you know, most people have enough mental fortitude to dodge.

I explained this in your other equally shit thread

If it was that easy to dodge he wouldnt be in every pro game in every region, as Im sure the best players in the world can "just dodge"

Niyumi1 votes

Well, what kind of champions do you see in the "pro" games 99% of the time? Do you see skillshots or anything? Nope, you see a lot of targeted abilities and AA + CC spam. So, they don't get a whole lot of practice dodging things.

The "pros" aren't super good, they're just popular and make Riot money; I've watched their games, and they do the same stupid things I see even in bronze.

So tell me: Why can I play against Graves just fine with a squishy champ? If he's so broken, shouldn't he beat me by default? Oh wait, just maybe, it's because I know how his kit works and how to play against him? ... Nah, that sounds crazy.

love god1 votes

{quoted}

Well, what kind of champions do you see in the "pro" games 99% of the time? Do you see skillshots or anything? Nope, you see a lot of targeted abilities and AA + CC spam. So, they don't get a whole lot of practice dodging things.

The "pros" aren't super good, they're just popular and make Riot money; I've watched their games, and they do the same stupid things I see even in bronze.

So tell me: Why can I play against Graves just fine with a squishy champ? If he's so broken, shouldn't he beat me by default? Oh wait, just maybe, I know how his kit works and how to play against him? ... Nah, that sounds crazy.

I agree with the last paragraph, pros actually are really good, and they seem like they sometimes do "Bronze'" things because the other pros know how to exploit their enemies mistakes

Niyumi1 votes

Oh sure, they're better than bronze players, but not by much. I've gone against everything from bronze to diamond, and there is very, very little difference in skill level. Never played against a challenger, but I've seen games, and I really don't notice any differences. People play their own champion a bit better, and usually have better awareness (meaning they notice mistakes, and can capitalize on it a bit better than a bronzie), but that's about it. Still the same, stupid mistakes.

SaltyKracka1 votes

"Pros are barely better than bronzies lol"

Man, I wonder why people aren't lining up to listen to your awesome words of wisdom.

Probably something to do with the words being the product of retardation.

love god1 votes

{quoted}

Oh sure, they're better than bronze players, but not by much. I've gone against everything from bronze to diamond, and there is very, very little difference in skill level. Never played against a challenger, but I've seen games, and I really don't notice any differences. People play their own champion a bit better, and usually have better awareness (meaning they notice mistakes, and can capitalize on it a bit better than a bronzie), but that's about it. Still the same, stupid mistakes.

Think that pros are just better than Bronze players? Then why aren't you a pro. If pros are so bad, why don't you just go and be the best player in the world, huh? Also, I enjoy how you mentioned in your first comment about how they only use point-and-click champs. Ah, the point-and-click champs for Lee Sin, Ahri, Azir, Orianna, Ezreal, Blitzcrank, Thresh, should I go on?

AHeroNamedHawke2 votes

{quoted}

Well, what kind of champions do you see in the "pro" games 99% of the time? Do you see skillshots or anything? Nope, you see a lot of targeted abilities and AA + CC spam. So, they don't get a whole lot of practice dodging things.

The "pros" aren't super good, they're just popular and make Riot money; I've watched their games, and they do the same stupid things I see even in bronze.

So tell me: Why can I play against Graves just fine with a squishy champ? If he's so broken, shouldn't he beat me by default? Oh wait, just maybe, it's because I know how his kit works and how to play against him? ... Nah, that sounds crazy.

HAHAHAHA

Holy fuck its like the special ed week on this board lately

This is a prank right? You're just messing with me? Cuz no one can actually be this profoundly thick

Literally any of the pros could crush you blindfolded, its why we know who they are while no one knows who you are

AlwaysByMySide3 votes

{quoted}

Well, what kind of champions do you see in the "pro" games 99% of the time? Do you see skillshots or anything? Nope, you see a lot of targeted abilities and AA + CC spam. So, they don't get a whole lot of practice dodging things.

The "pros" aren't super good, they're just popular and make Riot money; I've watched their games, and they do the same stupid things I see even in bronze.

So tell me: Why can I play against Graves just fine with a squishy champ? If he's so broken, shouldn't he beat me by default? Oh wait, just maybe, it's because I know how his kit works and how to play against him? ... Nah, that sounds crazy.

Stop shitposting, you've gotten too obvious with your "LOL pro players are only a little better than bronze!" shit.

Why do you think professional players became popular? Do you think it might be because they're really good at the game?

Get over yourself.

Troiann4 votes

Broken as fuck champion getting nerfed.

"But my freelo."

Niyumi1 votes

I don't care if they nerf him. But destroying his kit isn't nerfing. They just need to lower the damage bonus on his AA a bit, and bam, he's fine.

BluePolarizer3 votes

The Q is actually deceptively large in AOE and the punishment for being hit by it is a nearly 200% bonus AD scaling nuke.

For comparison: that is like tanking an AOE lee sin ult. on a basic skill.

SithesisLord1 votes
  • Highest winrate on 3 out of 5 roles, two of those that hardly have marksmen in them except for maybe Quinn, Kindred, Vayne, Urgot and Mordekaiser.
  • Can clear jungle camps and leave almost literally unscathed.
  • Mini-knockbacks.

Need i go on?

Also, an addendum. A while ago i played a match with a Graves jungle in it. I was playing ADC, Caitlyn, to be specific. He ganked my lane at level 2. At full HP, without having used a single damn health potion. If that´s not an indicator of 'NERF NOW', i don´t know what the hell is.

At this point, anything done to Graves that will reduce his winrate on those 3 roles and shove him back to bot lane where he belongs, the better.

Niyumi1 votes

Oh, jungle clears like that? Let's look at Shyvana, Godyr, Win Nhao and Aatrox -- if played right, all of them can clear without using pots too, since they heal themselves.

SithesisLord1 votes

Shyvana starts W, so it doesn´t count. The heal from Machete makes the clears survivable, but hardly able to be perfect. Udyr doesn´t even start with Turtle stance. It´s either Phoenix or Tiger first. Xin Zhao's heal early on is pretty shit. So is Aatrox's. And his works every 3rd or 4th AA.

Maybe After building a lot of lifesteal items, then yes, they MIGHT. Emphasis on MIGHT. And neither of those even have mini-knockbacks. Shyvana's got a displacement, Udyr has a stun, Xin has a knockup and so does Aatrox.

Graves clears Gromp/Krugs taking minimal damage. 100 HP, at the most. At level 1. WIthout leashes. See the difference? Even Lee Sin struggles to do that.

Niyumi1 votes

Uh, without a leash, he'd nearly die. His base AS is so low, and he doesn't have his E to kite properly, so he'd take a lot of hits while reloading.

Know what you're talking about before spouting off nonsense, okay?

SithesisLord1 votes

His leashes stay about half as much as any other leash for any other jungler. I timed it. It checks out. He just Q's, shoots twice, walks around while waiting for the reload to end. Rinse and repeat.

Know what you're talking about before spouting off nonsense, okay?

Says the one who thinks AAs should be turned into skillshots, has balance ideas that are at best, game health compromising and believes that F2P companies are the bane of gaming companies.

On the latter, Cryptic would like to have a word with you. NCSoft too.

On the other two...well....

spouting off nonsense

Seems oddly fitting.

Niyumi1 votes

{quoted}

Says the one who thinks AAs should be turned into skillshots...

Graves' AAs are skillshots, and he's "broken" -- so... Proof of concept.

...has balance ideas that are at best, game health compromising...

Oh, you mean like balance ideas that promote real skill, instead of just clicking on people to win? Yeah, sorry, I know that doesn't mesh well with modern gaming and the gimme generation.

...and believes that F2P companies are the bane of gaming companies.

Look, I know you're not old enough to understand this, but gaming used to be far, far better than it is nowadays. When F2P started to become a trend, gaming as a whole went downhill. Creativity and passion died off, and money-grubbing suits took over. NCsoft is beyond greedy; I know people who work at ANet (GW2), which NCsoft owns, since their headquarters is in Bellevue, which is my backyard. They are forced to drop whatever content they're working on in order to fill their fucking cash shop quota for the month, or risk being penalized. And Carbine (Wildstar), another NCsoft-owned company, is just as bad, if not worse. And with all the money-grubbing nickel and diming going on in Blade and Soul... that just kind of proves it.

When passion and love of of a career is replaced by greed and wallet-humping, the quality of your product plummets. And, again, I know you don't have any older games from your childhood to compare these new piles of garbage to, but they were just all around better back then. It's really kind of sad, what it's come to. Almost enough to make you cry, watching the hobby you loved all throughout your childhood slowly die in front of you. But hey, I can thank the fucking gimme generation for that.

SithesisLord1 votes

Graves' AAs are skillshots, and he's "broken" -- so... Proof of concept.

I wasn´t talking about Graves, sweet cheeks.

Oh, you mean like balance ideas that promote real skill, instead of just clicking on people to win? Yeah, sorry, I know that doesn't mesh well with modern gaming and the gimme generation.

It´s an RTS. An A-RTS. You know what other RTS games have point and click 'auto attacks' or an equivalent can be considered auto-attack?

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

I know you don't have any older games from your childhood to compare these new piles of garbage to.

Carmageddon, Wolfenstein 3D, Doom and Doom II Hell of Earth, Quake II, Full Throtle, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, Sim City 2000, and 3000, SimCopter, Half-Life and all its expansions. Need i go on?

Those are all decent games. Hardly god's gift to mankind, but decent. And fun. Most games today are.

The concept of F2P is applied in decent manners in most online games that aren´t called Star Wars The Old Republic.

Can you get to endgame without having to buy things with real money? Can you get by ANY area of the game just by playing and not paying? Are the restrictions you face in the game, be it of credit limit or any other, forgivable and ignorable? Is there any game content you can easily do without?

Cryptic did a fantastic job in Star Trek Online. In which, having extensively played it, all the answers for the above questions are yes. Literally every single content in the game can be acquired just by playing, even the special currency that is the equivalent to RP.

For Riot and League, all the above questions have yes for an answer.

Can you get to level 30 and climb ranked without paying? Yes. Can you play all the available game modes and with all champions without paying? Yes. The only restrictions are 2 initial rune pages. That you can solve by buying more with currency acquired during gameplay. Skins, of any kind, are cosmetic and give no more than that. Maybe ego boasting at best.

However, Riot and Cryptic must make money somehow. After all, they are producing an F2P game. The income for the work must come from somewhere. That is why League and STO seem to be a fake F2P platform like SWTOR, while in fact, they´re not.

League has the LCS, the World Championship, the RP players buy on their own conscious choice. STO has well....it´s Star Trek. The franchise pays for itself.

The game is free, the company is not.

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