Can we nerf Zyra's early damage?

only zhule··11 votes·1,381 views

So this has been bothering me for a while, why does Zyra have such amazing damage early in the game? Her abilities do decent but not amazing damage and have above average areas of effect. But what really gets me is that her plants are just fucking insanely good while requiring so little effort to set up. Go in for root and spam out two plants on top of your enemy right as they are caught, since it's a free ability with zero cooldown or refresh time.

I'd love to see little changes done, like maybe reduce the ranged plants attack range to something below the average range champions AA range. Or make them attack the nearest target unless an enemy champion is within a much smaller. Just do something about their auto target and attack range, it's insane that those things will still auto target even if you are like 500-700 range away. This is made worse since these plants also count towards Thunder Lord's so even if Zyra misses her root or AOE spell, she can still often trigger the effect simply because the plants get off 2-3 attack before you can get out of range (unless you have a gap closer).

Another way to deal with the issue would be to reduce the AOE that Zyra's abilities trigger the seeds. It feels like you get a free 150-200 bonus range on both sides of your abilities to trigger seeds, meaning that even if you miss your target you are still going to trigger seed pods.

12 Comments

Inviction3 votes

I'm personally a Support main and I just tried her because she was on Free Rotation and Does she do a lot of damage. Her early burst damage can kill an alistar at level 3. It's pretty bad, Enjoyable support to play though.

Vekkna3 votes

If the Alistar has dps runes and masteries maybe. Or brain damage. And if Zyra has ignite. And if the adc doesn't use heal and Ali doesn't use exhaust. Basically never.

Knight Sky2 votes

How about no

PrinceOfStorms2 votes

reduce the ranged plants attack range to something below the average range champions AA range

Jesus christ do you want to fucking destroy here? Because that's how you destroy her. It's like asking to make Vayne into a melee champion that cannot crit.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

Jesus christ do you want to fucking destroy here? Because that's how you destroy her. It's like asking to make Vayne into a melee champion that cannot crit.

you are funny. I seriously doubt reducing the range of the preferred targeting would hurt her that much. Especially since the plants take like 3-5 attacks to kill.

LankPants2 votes

The problem with your ideas is that they hurt mid lane Zyra as much or even more than support Zyra. Reducing her bases makes it harder for mid Zyra to trade and farm at low levels. Range nerfs also matter less in bot lane since you can utilise the brushes to get into closer ranges at lower risk.

Mid Zyra is already pretty bad right now, so any changes to Zyra should be aimed at being net neutral or beneficial to mid Zyra.

I also feel like you've misidentified the problem with support Zyra. A mage going bot and destroying at low levels isn't that unusual. Take most mages bot and they'll have similar early strength, even mage supports like Sona and Nami have very high early damage. The difference between Zyra and Sona/Nami/Syndra/Lux is that other mages suffer a damage drop off if you don't build AP. Zyra with Sorc's and a Void deals over 80% of the damage a 5 item AP Zyra deals. Zyra's damage/level is too high and her damage/AP is too low. This is where the problem actually lies.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

The problem with your ideas is that they hurt mid lane Zyra as much or even more than support Zyra. Reducing her bases makes it harder for mid Zyra to trade and farm at low levels. Range nerfs also matter less in bot lane since you can utilise the brushes to get into closer ranges at lower risk.

Mid Zyra is already pretty bad right now, so any changes to Zyra should be aimed at being net neutral or beneficial to mid Zyra.

I also feel like you've misidentified the problem with support Zyra. A mage going bot and destroying at low levels isn't that unusual. Take most mages bot and they'll have similar early strength, even mage supports like Sona and Nami have very high early damage. The difference between Zyra and Sona/Nami/Syndra/Lux is that other mages suffer a damage drop off if you don't build AP. Zyra with Sorc's and a Void deals over 80% of the damage a 5 item AP Zyra deals. Zyra's damage/level is too high and her damage/AP is too low. This is where the problem actually lies.

I agree that my suggestions would hurt mid lane zyra. But other then a shift in her abilities from level= damage towards AP= damage, there aren't many changes that can be made that hurt support Zyra but don't do much against mid lane Zyra. Even with this change you still hurt early game mid Zyra since she would in theory do less damage the first 3-5 levels due to lack of items.

LankPants2 votes

But other then a shift in her abilities from level= damage towards AP= damage, there aren't many changes that can be made that hurt support Zyra but don't do much against mid lane Zyra.

That's probably enough. How many mages do you see bot for only their early game? The only other mage I see commonly bot is Brand and he's a champ in a very similar situation to Zyra. His AP ratios aren't that good and his bases are absurd.

Any nerfs to Zyra's per level damage are huge hits to support Zyra and fairly small hits to mid Zyra.

Even with this change you still hurt early game mid Zyra since she would in theory do less damage the first 3-5 levels due to lack of items.

Not really. The change I've always sugested is

  • Change plants damage per level from 5 to 2.5
  • Increase Q ratio from 0.65 to 0.75
  • -10 Q base damage, +5 damage per rank
  • Increase plant ratio from 0.15 to 0.25

These changes would primerally hit mid Zyra at very low levels. Between 1 and 5 she'd see drop offs of around 10 damage per combo. Once she starts ranking Q it would somewhat offset her plants loss of damage however. I think support Zyra would struggle a lot more with these changes since she's going to see a significant midgame drop off where mid Zyra has a potential boon once she can grab a Morello's.

Jyoeru1 votes

I am sure they will nerf her eventually, but I can assert that said nerf would be unfair in many regards.

Her passive is unreliable. Her seeds can be crushed. Her Q is telegraphed. So many champs can all-in her to death 1v1. She's practically useless until level 3. If her spells are on CD, she's absolutely useless. She falls off hard mid-game until she gets more items (especially if she's being built against), and even then she's not as strong as other champs, especially if they know what they are doing.

I think the changes you propose would effectively delete her.

only zhule2 votes

{quoted}

I am sure they will nerf her eventually, but I can assert that said nerf would be unfair in many regards.

Her passive is unreliable. Her seeds can be crushed. Her Q is telegraphed. So many champs can all-in her to death 1v1. She's practically useless until level 3. If her spells are on CD, she's absolutely useless. She falls off hard mid-game until she gets more items (especially if she's being built against), and even then she's not as strong as other champs, especially if they know what they are doing.

I think the changes you propose would effectively delete her.

I think the issue is that as a mage middle, she isn't super strong, but as a support she's really strong with not a lot of draw backs. Most champions don't have the means to crush the seeds before you activates them, and once she can drop them her self (not just the passive) she can easily cause 3 plants to sprout every time you try to deny a seed pod. It feels like there isn't much set up for her burst, just cast ability and then in the half second before it goes off drop 2 seeds that trigger immediately. Given that her spells also don't use a ton of mana (and planting seeds is free), so long as you don't spam you can pretty easily manage your mana to always have burst in your back pocket. This might be less of an issue if she couldn't do this from about 800 range PLUS the 750 range of her plants, I.E. way outside of counter attack range, or if her plants didn't take several hits to down thus allowing them the ability to get off 2-3 auto attacks.

Tyrone Lannister1 votes

Could raise the cooldown of her passive.

Calabok1 votes

ahha yea lets nerf her plants. got any herbicide???

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