Why you don't need to worry about a Tank meta

The Ecdysiast··5 votes·1,915 views

To preface, let's talk about the Tank Class Update. Unlike the other class updates, one of the intentions of this one was to limit the power of the class in question. How they accomplished this was by adjusting the items so they were more effective agaisnt the intended damage type, and less effective against the opposite. That is, HP+Armor items were adjusted to be less effective against magic damage and vice-versa, since the Total Effective Health against the opposite type is just the base health of the items, which was reduced. Randuin's had its base stats lowered so it could be made much more effective as a counter specifically against crits. Adaptive Helm, similarly, has lower stats to balance out that it's far stronger against spammable spells.

With that in mind, any Tank meta from then on is going to have a far less oppressive advantage for them than when any other class is the meta. The way Tanks have been adjusted to be weaker against diversified damage types, a diverse team composition will always be an easy solution.


And even if we disregard that entirely, there's still the fact the ability to ignore defenses has also been buffed. To counter attempts to build defense, we have: (for physical damage) item 3071 item 3153 item 3033 and item 3036 which were both buffed item 3031
item 1416 (for magic damage) item 3135 item 3151 which was buffed and item 3116 to increase it further even if you don't have your own cc, item 3001 item 3020

And there's still Conqueror.


What I can see if tanks become meta is what I and others have been asking for-- longer games that aren't decided in the first twelve minutes. But unlike metas where one class simply dominates in damage, it won't be anywhere near as oppressive to other picks.

32 Comments

Frosted Tips3 votes

Oh yes gotta love the flat penetration for AP champions will really help against tanks.

MrFawknSunshine2 votes

{quoted}

Oh yes gotta love the flat penetration for AP champions will really help against tanks.

the best way to handle tanks is to have mixture of damage . dont let them stack def vs one type of damage. and to have dps

Frosted Tips1 votes

I'm pretty sure if you build full tank you can get about 250 armor and mr and still have like 3.5k hp so I don't think that is a viable solution to the problem.

MrFawknSunshine2 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty sure if you build full tank you can get about 250 armor and mr and still have like 3.5k hp so I don't think that is a viable solution to the problem.

damage out scales tank

you cant stop the damage from all 5 enemies

Frosted Tips1 votes

Ok true but that was not what we were discussing. Any magic damage champion that can't buy Void without a huge lose in their damage or tankyness doesn't have an option in damaging tanks.

MrFawknSunshine2 votes

{quoted}

Ok true but that was not what we were discussing. Any magic damage champion that can't buy Void without a huge lose in their damage or tankyness doesn't have an option in damaging tanks.

and a tank cant build effectively enough vs mix damage ... hence why a balance team comp of ad/ap/dps damage is ideal with some sort of cc

if you build an all ap comp the tank dont have to build armor,. and if its an all ad comp they can ignore MR and focus on the type of damage they are facing or build to counter the biggest treat on enemy team by whatever it may be

Frosted Tips1 votes

So I guess you ignored my first comment then.

Illabethe2 votes

No..... he's pointing out that hybrid resistances are lower to each, and Void staff takes more of it. If you have an AP team, they can build item 3194 item 3001 item 3111 item 3065 and pretty much erase ALL your damage, and even with a Void staff, Adaptive will reduce damage from same source damage (a lot of mages).

If you have an AP/AD team, they build vs Both, and the Adaptive helm/Abyssal might not even be in the build, so the AP tank is much weaker to magic damage, and also much weaker to the AD damage.

Frosted Tips1 votes

I have alot that I would like to discuss about this and problems about tankyness and other such things that you pointed out and others have also. I will make a post when I get home in about 2 hours about my thoughts on what is wrong with tanks, true damage, and others such things.

Illabethe2 votes

250 Armor is about 37 armor vs Penetration/Armor Reduction builds, and item 3031 /Conquerer Shred it anyways.

You can get relatively tanky vs Magic.

It's impossible atm vs AD.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty sure if you build full tank you can get about 250 armor and mr and still have like 3.5k hp so I don't think that is a viable solution to the problem.

That's literally not possible, unless you're Rammus with your W on, or Thresh after three hours with a full MR build. (implying you've gotten all the armor from his passive)

TheSingularity2 votes

Armor is nearly irrelevant compared to MR. Marksman will still shred a full armor/HP tank. A mage will not shred a full MR/health tank.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Oh yes gotta love the flat penetration for AP champions will really help against tanks.

It's somethin'. I only included it since being a boot choice makes it far easier to build than a full item.

Hyquiem3 votes

Obviously tank meta won’t be, IMO everything is viable. Now the game is running on skill. The fact is players are so over dramatic to every buff except their champion/champions, thus it just shows how desperately people need help. But on more game related terms, yes indeed tank meta won’t even exist b/c you have so many answers to tanks now. If you play legit stupid, and loose. Then it is your fault. If you play fine and your botlane ints. Just accept the loss.

Illabethe2 votes

I think it's running on a combination of skill, and undeniable access to damage.

Thursday I went 9/0/9 on Sion jung.

Jinx on the other team was 0/9.

My team proceeds to give her a triple under turret.

Jinx farms up and gets a item 3095 item 3085 item 3031 , and suddenly becomes 1v5 force, because her Fishbones shred is so damn powerful now that True damage IE exists.

My 9/0/9 Sion with 5500 HP begins dying in 2 seconds. Ends 10/5/12.

There are champs right now that aren't about skill. They are about getting 2-3 kills to improve their gold income enough to get a broken item combination, and then the game is over.

Diana Jinx Jax Lucian MasterYi Tryndamere Talon Yasuo all have mechanics like this right now.

They can die all they want and feed all they want, but once they get some gold, they dominate the rest of the game, for relatively low skill. Skill only applies to shutting them DOWN.

MrFawknSunshine2 votes

LUL there wont be a tank meta cuz of all things you listed and plus resolve tree has shit for def stats prior to 10 mins in game ( conditioning + overgrowth )

Illabethe2 votes

I don't need the armor/resist boost early. I can dominate early on a tank. It's mid/late with the new IE and LD where tankiness fails.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

LUL there wont be a tank meta cuz of all things you listed and plus resolve tree has shit for def stats prior to 10 mins in game ( conditioning + overgrowth )

Yes, that was my point. It won't be an oppressive tank meta. If tanks become the meta, it'll just mean the game is more balanced.

AirKingNeo1 votes

yeah cause tank metas haven't happened before with all those items existing

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

yeah cause tank metas haven't happened before with all those items existing

Yeah, actually, a tank meta hasn't happened since all these items were changed. The changes to tank items really did the trick.

And most of the items I listed aren't the same items they were at that time.

VoraciousX1 votes

I kind of disagree with this because most tanks only build one MR item(item 3065 or item 3194), and that's basically enough to counter an AP caster's damage until void staff, which is a third/fourth item. Those items also give health. AP is nothing to most tanks, and in a tank META there are more than one tank, and all tanks can build differently. Conqueror and AD items are the only ones that will have anything worth throwing at a tank, especially if they have Adaptive Helm, because not only does that lower the damage of a DoT mageMalzahar , or someone who casts many spells quicklyCassiopeia, it also lowers the damage of Liandry's. Void staff is the only powerful option vs a tank, and tanks generally have one defensive option for mages long before they can get to void staff. Not to mention it's practically tradition that a tank meta comes directly after an assassin meta.

Also tbf BORK was NERFED(lost attack speed a while back, which is the main way BORK deals with tanks), Black Cleaver was nerfed(lowered attack damage, lowered health, lowered armor shred).

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

I kind of disagree with this because most tanks only build one MR item(item 3065 or item 3194), and that's basically enough to counter an AP caster's damage until void staff, which is a third/fourth item. Those items also give health. AP is nothing to most tanks, and in a tank META there are more than one tank, and all tanks can build differently. Conqueror and AD items are the only ones that will have anything worth throwing at a tank, especially if they have Adaptive Helm, because not only does that lower a DoT mageMalzahar , or someone who casts many spells quicklyCassiopeia, it also lowers the damage of liandry's. Void staff is the only powerful option vs a tank, and tanks generally have one defensive option for mages long before they can get to void staff. Not to mention it's practically tradition that a tank meta comes directly after an assassin meta.

Here's an idea

build against the enemies you're fighting like you're supposed to, and finish your void staff second item.

VoraciousX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e3sseVEH,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-08-18T05:35:56.295+0000)

Here's an idea

build against the enemies you're fighting like you're supposed to, and finish your void staff second item.

Void Staff isn't a good second item. You don't have enough AP to deal enough damage to a tank with a void staff at that point. You may deal more, but he'll still likely kill you because tanks have higher base damage, and if you build void staff you wont' be doing as much damage to an ADC as you would if you built Morellonomicon because they don't build resistances.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

Void Staff isn't a good second item. You don't have enough AP to deal enough damage to a tank with a void staff at that point. You may deal more, but he'll still likely kill you because tanks have higher base damage, and if you build void staff you wont' be doing as much damage to an ADC as you would if you built Morellonomicon because they don't build resistances.

Void Staff grants AP, in case you forgot.

VoraciousX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e3sseVEH,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-18T05:49:06.625+0000)

Void Staff grants AP, in case you forgot.

It gives 70 AP. Morellonomicon gives 80, 300 health, a passive, and flat magic pen, which is more useful against ADCs early anyways, because they don't have high base MR, and don't build resistances. Void Staff second will only be useful against tanks after you have enough damage, and passives/actives that synergize with your AP to be meaningful to a tank. You're not gonna kill a tank with item 3285 item 3135 item 3020 when they have a item 3065 or item 3194 because you only have one rotation of low damage(low when fighting a tank with a spirit visage, even with a void staff). Your void staff will remove 40% of their MR, but at that point the other 60% of their MR will still be far too strong early for you to get through, because that's what they buy it for.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

It gives 70 AP. Morellonomicon gives 80, 300 health, a passive, and flat magic pen, which is more useful against ADCs early anyways, because they don't have high base MR, and don't build resistances. Void Staff second will only be useful against tanks after you have enough damage, and passives/actives that synergize with your AP to be meaningful to a tank. You're not gonna kill a tank with item 3285 item 3135 item 3020 when they have a item 3065 or item 3194 because you only have one rotation of low damage(low when fighting a tank with a spirit visage, even with a void staff). Your void staff will remove 40% of their MR, but at that point the other 60% of their MR will still be far too strong early for you to get through, because that's what they buy it for.

If that were true and a problem, it'd already be a tank meta.

VoraciousX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e3sseVEH,comment-id=000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-18T06:39:16.777+0000)

If that were true and a problem, it'd already be a tank meta.

It's not a tank meta because tanks haven't been buffed to the usual insane levels before a tank meta yet. They've received some buffs, but not enough to make them oppressive yet. Mundo is the only one who was buffed enough to be pick or ban and he was nerfed pretty much directly after because he's Mundo and any time he gets too strong it ruins the game.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

when tanks are meta enough that it can be considered a "tank meta" it literally means "you pick anything that is early game focused? enjoy the free loss! also don't bother picking bruisers or anything but tanks in top/jungle/support because you would be in such a huge disadvantage at the point of the game where every single game will reach with tanks just doing a much better job than whatever champion you picked will ever do"

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

when tanks are meta enough that it can be considered a "tank meta" it literally means "you pick anything that is early game focused? enjoy the free loss! also don't bother picking bruisers or anything but tanks in top/jungle/support because you would be in such a huge disadvantage at the point of the game where every single game will reach with tanks just doing a much better job than whatever champion you picked will ever do"

Yes. And my point was that can't possibly happen, the way tank items have been nerfed and penetration items have been buffed.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e3sseVEH,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-08-18T20:18:58.846+0000)

Yes. And my point was that can't possibly happen, the way tank items have been nerfed and penetration items have been buffed.

"can't possibly happen" you mean like how Ezreal Jungle was supposed to be a troll pick yet it worked! how MF support was a troll thing? yet it works! everything that happened in previous tank metas will happen again, if there is a new tank meta, regardless of how much penetration/true damage/everything is in the game. A meta is literally "this is the most optimal way to win" so not having tanks will make you inferior to a team that has tanks if we get a tank meta. Having tanks means late game is way easier to achieve due to there being less damage champions on the map, people will default to just playing defensively and wave clear heavy champions since that would let them get the items they need come the late game. Early game champions won't be able to do much to tanks and if the game reaches past a certain point that is an inevitability they will just be outclassed and outscaled by the tanks, so why bother picking early game champions at that point? it happens every single time.

It doesn't matter what type of meta we have, those champions are king and everything else that has to compete in whatever role or lane they share is pretty much gone except for very specific cheese picks

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

"can't possibly happen" you mean like how Ezreal Jungle was supposed to be a troll pick yet it worked! how MF support was a troll thing? yet it works! everything that happened in previous tank metas will happen again, if there is a new tank meta, regardless of how much penetration/true damage/everything is in the game. A meta is literally "this is the most optimal way to win" so not having tanks will make you inferior to a team that has tanks if we get a tank meta. Having tanks means late game is way easier to achieve due to there being less damage champions on the map, people will default to just playing defensively and wave clear heavy champions since that would let them get the items they need come the late game. Early game champions won't be able to do much to tanks and if the game reaches past a certain point that is an inevitability they will just be outclassed and outscaled by the tanks, so why bother picking early game champions at that point? it happens every single time.

It doesn't matter what type of meta we have, those champions are king and everything else that has to compete in whatever role or lane they share is pretty much gone except for very specific cheese picks

You're comparing apples and oranges. Ezreal Jungle worked because he was buffed, not because anyone else was nerfed.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e3sseVEH,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-18T20:43:52.975+0000)

You're comparing apples and oranges. Ezreal Jungle worked because he was buffed, not because anyone else was nerfed.

"buffed" you are the one who thinks that "oh look pen items were buffed that means tank meta won't be the exact same way as every single other tank meta!"

AP champions do nothing to tanks currently so that leaves AD champions and tanks can do very well against AD champions if there are less of them that do damage in the game. There is a huge difference between a tank, being focused by 5 damage dealers than by 2~3 damage dealers. There is also a huge difference between having no tanks in the team vs having 2+ in every game. Please, tank meta comes? bye bye early game champions, hello 30+ min farmfest and one teamfight win = victory games. That is pretty much every single tank meta in a nutshell

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