Ap and AD itemization will never have the same utility options.

Marshbouy·Sep 29, 2016·69 votes·2,358 views

They just won't. Ap won't get shield items like because a large number of AP champs already have built in shields. Ad won't ever get a zhonyas because it would render ADCs unkillable Ap won't get a cleanse item because AP has zhonyas Ad won't get a rabadons because it would be to snowbally and would just be a horrible idea. The list goes on and on. The point is Ap and Ad champions have completely different kit's and most of the time have different playstyles. They have their own niche utility items for a reason.

74 Comments

Phoenix Kotori Sep 29, 201624 votes

AP have a shield item though item 3040

Supreme Senpai69Sep 29, 201620 votes

Which takes 20-30 minutes to get, outside of the gold cost, assuming you rush a tear

YumaS2AstralSep 29, 201616 votes

And does not benefit manaless AP champions like Vladimir Kennen Mordekaiser

RalanrSep 29, 20167 votes

Two of those wouldn't even need a shield.

Vistha KaiSep 30, 20161 votes

It takes a minimum of 375 seconds (6min 15seconds) to charge item 3003 from 0 to 750.

If it takes you more than 20 minutes, you are doing something horribly wrong.

Supreme Senpai69Oct 1, 20162 votes

If you have infinite mana and an ability with a 2 second cooldown, and you aren't even trying to CS or fight with the enemy laner... sure.

Vistha KaiOct 1, 20161 votes

CS'ing has nothing to do with it.

As for fighting the other guy, what's the problem? What, you can't harrass them while charging Tear?

Supreme Senpai69Oct 6, 20162 votes

People who need mana build a tear. If you need mana, you can't use an ability every four seconds or you're going to have to back within a minute to get more mana, losing out on CS. If not, you have zero mana to fight with the enemy laner.

C'mon man I get playing the devil's advocate is popular on the internet but at a certain point common sense has to triumph. You can't say "You can use an ability every 4 seconds so it only takes 6+ minutes." And I shouldn't even have to explain why, lol

Vistha KaiOct 6, 20161 votes

I said the MINIMUM is 6 minutes.

Common sense has to triumph? Too bad reading comprehension doesn't have to.

Supreme Senpai69Oct 6, 20161 votes

And then you said "If it takes you more than 20 minutes, you are doing something horribly wrong."

Which implies it should take far under 20 minutes. Such as 6 minutes. Nice troll tho

Vistha KaiOct 6, 20161 votes

If somebody is trolling here, it'd be you, but I'll take the bait.

Charging item 3003 requires 94 spell casts assuming item 3070 had 0 stacks before getting the item, otherwise it's less.

To charge item 3003 in 20 minutes would on average require one spell cast ever 12.8 seconds. Every mage with the exception of Lissandra from level, say, 10 - since unless you rush it, you won't get it sooner anyway - onward regenerates at least 2.44 mana per second.

So between spell casts a champion would regenerate 31.2 points of mana, which in most cases is half the cost of "bread'n'butter" abilities on top of the fact Archangel refunding 25% of the mana cost.

In other words the cost of charging Archangel in 20 minutes is so negligible, you should feel bad for not getting it by that point.

Supreme Senpai69Oct 6, 20161 votes

Few mages have a spell CD of 4 seconds too though. Plus, getting 750 gold would take... I really don't want to do the math. Let's just say with perfect CS, 5 minutes. So that's 94 spell casts in 15 minutes which is a spell cast every 9.5 seconds. Which seems pretty reasonable to me actually. Unless you're like, Ezreal or something, which in that case you're charging it much faster.

Vistha KaiOct 6, 20161 votes

The thing is Tear stacks twice as slowly as Archangel's.

So yes, if you sit on Tear alone, then it's going to take a while.

Sariat1Oct 6, 20161 votes

Karthus is the solution to all your problems here.

SqueySep 29, 20161 votes

And very few champs view it as optimal to build due to the lack of cdr. morello helps most champs mana issues enough while giving 20% much needed cdr. getting both is never optimal. They technically have it but its not a viable option for most

Vistha KaiSep 30, 20161 votes

It's the second highest AP option in the game, providing possibly the second biggest shield in the game and coupled with Morellonomicon, a practically infinite supply of mana.

If you have no need for your 6th item being completely defensive in nature, then there is no reason to not get this item in most cases.

DealthSep 29, 201610 votes

item 3031 = item 3089

MogarlSep 29, 20169 votes

( Jayce maybe) Talon Zed Rengar Khazix AD Casters

these are the holes in your "completely different playstyle" argument. This doesn't invalidate the rest of what you've said but it's worth pointing out that they are related to a bunch of itemization issues both for them and against them. Why can't a Zed build a hybrid offence defense item against Talon , but in a fight between two mages one can opt into abyssal? There really needs to be a way to make it so AD caster items can't be abused by other classes (cough marksmen).

Altogether though you are completely right that there should not be AD/AP clone items. That would give a bad feeling to itemization as a whole and lower the distinction between a lot of champs.

RalanrSep 29, 20163 votes

AD casters mainly work with flat AD and CDR items. So a mix of bruiser (BC) and assassin items (Ghostblade) are best for them.

I imagine that the assassin update will be a great item boost for AD casters. I might almost be as excited as I was when I tried Duskblade on Pantheon.

The Yetii RiderSep 29, 20161 votes

AD armor items wouldn't be abused by marksmen. They would be abused by juggernauts and divers. Riven, Yasuo, Olaf, Volibear, Renekton, Darius and Skarner would all be so annoyingly strong if there was an AD item that gave armor.

MagikarpIsBossSep 29, 20162 votes

Are you sure? Having an AD Armor item would be really good since you can make you laner do so much less damage.

However, both laners would probably build it to make it irrelevant. Either way, It could be abused by ADC if the stats are good enough to not need extra crit/pen/damage.

SqueySep 29, 20162 votes

item 3025 is a thing though. It makes adcs that can optimally use it like ezreal near impossible to assassinate by ad assassins. And is a common item on some divers who can use it effectively such as skarner and bruiser Vi

5000000000000000Sep 30, 20162 votes

I'm pretty sure the real issue is Abyssal Scepter. That item should be an AP bruiser or tank item with slight bit of damage.

Sire HippingtonSep 29, 20167 votes

Ap won't get shield items like because a large number of AP champs already have built in shields.

That makes no sense, APs have actually an shield item item 3040 , and there are quite some ad champs with shields aswell : JarvanIV Kled LeeSin Poppy Riven Sion Skarner Udyr Urgot Yasuo .

Also, by that logic ad shouldn't have ifesteal items because many ads have lifesteal in their kit or other selfheal....

Ad won't ever get a zhonyas because it would render ADCs unkillable

No, the reason why ADs didn't get zhonya's in the past was because they couldn't really use it. They were all about dps, so locking your self in a stasis for 2.5sec doesn't have alot benefits other than buying time for your team to help you. However, with ad-casters beeing a real thing since a couple of seasons, a as-zhonya's actually would makes sense for champs like wukong to buy time for their CDs in a teamfight.

Ap won't get a cleanse item because AP has zhonyas

What has one to do with the other? Stasis and cleanse are two totally different effects with entierly different purposes....

Ad won't get a rabadons because it would be to snowbally and would just be a horrible idea. The list goes on and on.

This is one off the big balance issues in lol. Ad already have multiplicative scalings with ADxASxCRIT(xCrit-dmg), AP has no such thing, so ap has rabadons for the lategame scaleing. However, there are ad-casters which don't go for crit or AS, so they lack multiplicative scaleings, resulting in them haveing lowish base damage and huge ratios, which makes them very snowbally and usuallly strong midgame and weak lategame unless their kits are very powerfull. Adding an AD-abbadons that has the same unique passive as IE and maybe even reduces critchance would help ad-casters to be less binary in their damage progression without adding another multiplicative layer on ADCs.

Ad and AP champions had rather different kits back in S1, but by now there are many champs with similar kits between AD and AP, especially when it comes to assasins and fighters.

ZT XperimentorOct 1, 20161 votes

Physical champions also get more armor penetration than mages get magic penetration; which further stilts the difference in multiplicative scalings.

VallalanSep 29, 20166 votes

an ad rabadons wouldnt just be snowbally it would be the most insanely overpowered mechanic in the game. rabadons is ok because it amplifies your abilities which are gated by cooldowns.

auto attacks are not gated by cooldowns. thus you can amplify your crits to absurd amounts since your ad will be huge. it's just not a good idea ever.

I could see an ap item getting a shield in the future and I can see an ap item getting QSS as well, but I think they need really good ideas rather than just trying to force it.

crippler38Sep 29, 20162 votes

pretty sure crit is supposed to be the rabbadons, RNG based but it gives you a % increase in damage

HateDaddySep 29, 20163 votes

{quoted}

pretty sure crit is supposed to be the rabbadons, RNG based but it gives you a % increase in damage

Indeed, I.E basically is AD Rabadons. It's multiplicatively amps critical strikes which is also a multiplicative stat of AD (or any auto attack based spell)

Kosm1KSep 29, 20163 votes

Funnily enough Zed has an ad rabadons built into his shadows

VallalanSep 29, 20161 votes

zed is also melee and squish. he wont be going into consistently auto attack often. the AD % on his W is to ensure that late game when people have zhonyas he still has a fighting shot to kill someone without his ultimate.

Kosm1KSep 30, 20162 votes

true, just sayin it makes him a little more reliable than any other ad caster, which in itself is a little annoying

PoskeSep 29, 20165 votes

Ad will never get zhonyas because it is not fitting

ADC can dps every half second there is no reason to go in 3.5 second zhonya

MonkeyMadnessSep 29, 20163 votes

But I still vote for a magic damage equivalent of item 3075 . Obviously can't be a straight damage reflect passive, but I think something fun and unique could be worked out to expand the current bland state of tank mr items.

RalanrSep 29, 201614 votes

Magic damage is already easy enough to build for because of the lack of magic penetration items in comparison to armor pen.

MonkeyMadnessSep 29, 20161 votes

This is true, but the recent change to item 3001 has made it a staple item for most ap mid laners. Also, ap champs have access to magic pen on their boots, and due to the recent nerfs to item 3158 , sorc boots are now pretty much the go-to for mages. So while flat magic pen is definitely less available than flat armor pen, every ap champ will almost inevitably end up with these two items.

SqueySep 29, 20161 votes

No such thing as enough mr when versing high dps mages like azir and cass though. magic pen or not, you will die by sheer volume of magic missiles headed at ur face.

MonkeyMadnessSep 29, 20162 votes

Exactly, so give us another niche mr item plz

Vistha KaiSep 30, 20161 votes

Are you really telling me Abyssal Scepter got buffed in MYMU?

Every AP champ will almost inevitably end up with these two items.

With Sorcs, yes. With Abyssal? Ahri, LeBlanc, Katarina, Fizz, Annie and Ekko. That's hardly "every AP champion".

AbyssphereOct 6, 20161 votes

Nope. Thornmail is "ok" because ADCs can choose to avoid targeting the person who owns it and if they choose to attack someone with Thornmail, they have lifesteal to sustain it. Mages have AOE abilities (can easily hit a tank without meaning to) and don't get sustain except for very niche cases. A tank with a magic damage Thornmail would just be a big area where mages can't afford to aim their skillshots because they'll kill themselves otherwise.

MonkeyMadnessOct 6, 20161 votes

I specifically said it wouldn't the generic "reflect x% of magic damage". Maybe something like "if you take x amount of damage over a 3 seconds, you gain the ability to case a spell dealing some % of that damage back to a target of your choosing". It would discourage the big cheese plays from certain champs cough Leblanc cough and give another layer of counterplay against some persistent aoe or dot champs.

CookyPrinceSep 29, 20163 votes

So many shields Ahri Akali Anivia Annie Cassiopeia Elise Fizz Heimerdinger Katarina Kennen Kayle Leblanc Lissandra Syndra Taliyah Velkoz Xerath Ziggs

KingnewgameplusSep 29, 20163 votes

Yeah, especially light blue box! That champ is broken.

CasterGilgameshSep 29, 20162 votes

Well he isnt called fizz for nothing :D

5000000000000000Sep 30, 20161 votes

To be fair, a lot of those have built in safety in their kits, some of which basically act like shields.

dunkeroniSep 29, 20163 votes

Except a lot of itemization utility is shared across the classes

item 3003 item 3004 Mana = stats item 3285 item 3087 walking = bonus damage item 3165 item 3123 reduce enemy healing

GrReaper96Sep 29, 20161 votes

Well for item 3165 item 3123 one is 3200g while one is 800g. item 3033 would be a be a better comparison

dunkeroniSep 29, 20162 votes

I was just pointing out the mechanic involved. People get the last whisper items confused sometimes, and I figure executioner's would be easier to recognize.