Let's stop this Lee Sin issue with one step

Kowe The Ewok·Jan 4, 2015·60 votes·3,488 views

Decrease the projectile speed of his Q by 350.

Upon his release Lee Sin was considered underpowered. Riot buffed him, among these buffs was an increase in projectile speed and size for his Q. Today it's one of the fastest travelling projectiles ingame. It's jukeable, but close to undodgeable - even with Flash. A missed Q usually means that Lee made a mistake, not that you avoided it. It should be brought back in line with other skillshots, so that counterplay actually is possible.

32 Comments

SexyTaylorSwiftJan 5, 201517 votes

A missed Q means that you can run for 5 feet before getting hit with the next one.

DeusVultJan 5, 20156 votes

So, in addition to this, since IMO Lee needs more than 1 nerf, you decrease his base MS to 335 and increase his Q/W CD by 2 seconds each.

ImHerVoiceJan 5, 20151 votes

lololol ikr

The Red WardenJan 5, 20156 votes

But that would upset the Lee Sin mains who care nothing about this game's balance except when someone even notions about a nerf for Lee Sin. They raise a shit storm whenever any nerf for him goes on the PBE and apparently they are the only group Riot actually listens to about game balance.

Other reason why not: LCS BIG PLAYZ

AkesgerothJan 5, 20156 votes

Or how about removing the jump on his W? Make it a self-shield only, maybe buff the shield value on it. Bam, balanced. Removes ward jumping, removes bullshit escapes, nerfs his ability to save teammates, etc.

KingsgraveJan 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Or how about removing the jump on his W? Make it a self-shield only, maybe buff the shield value on it. Bam, balanced. Removes ward jumping, removes bullshit escapes, nerfs his ability to save teammates, etc.

Balanced maybe but reducing gameplay options makes a character bland and boring. Make him harder to play, dont just remove the things that make him cool.

In a thread about what people liked about Lee Sin, everyone said mobility. I doubt its unbalanceable. Game design is a mix of what is fun and what is broken, dont just remove the fun thinking itll easily make things less broken (either good broken or bad broken)

Leti the YetiJan 5, 20156 votes

fix lee sin by giving hm rek sai vision, like all the time untill he hits stuff for vision ;l maybe able to see just abit farther than rek sai.. problem solved thematic, challenging, increased skill cap

RandomoniumJan 5, 20151 votes

This would actually be super fun. Trying to hit people with your Q outside vision range would be pretty challenging and justify his insane power.

theragingnerdJan 4, 20154 votes

no you avoided i it isn't that good stop qqing he is balanced you just can't juke

Knight SoIaire Jan 5, 20154 votes

he is ballanced but he is toxic riot already stated they will rework him because he has no niche his kit fillls he just does everyhing in skilled hands lee is actualy op because he does more than other champions and does it quite reliably

soulbanana8Jan 5, 20154 votes

I wholeheartedly agree. Q-sniping isn't even that hard unless they're at max range. Or change the ratios back to old values(Q at 0.8, E at 0.6, ult at 1.5)

TonyTonyMordecaiJan 5, 20158 votes

Yeah, not to mention his Q projectile speed is as fast, if not a little slower, as Jinx's Zap!, except that there is a delay AND a line telling you that there is going to be a projectile coming your way from a certain spot that can be easily followable, allowing for counterplay and avoidance. Lee does not have a delay, or a line, and his Q width is like the size of Morgana's snare. Unfair for an assassin to have that and then be able to leap to them and cause the same amount of damage again.

YfrappefortJan 5, 20154 votes

Not a bad idea, but I think the first change he needs is a nerf to his absurb base MS.

AetherKingdomJan 5, 20154 votes

If you can't dodge a Lee Sin Q with flash I think you're the problem honestly.

Argomecha PerdixJan 5, 20151 votes

The downvoters didn't get the sarcasm of your comment :P

AetherKingdomJan 5, 20152 votes

Nah, they're just shitters who flash into a missed Lee Sin Q

The Epicer ONeJan 5, 20151 votes

ikr its actually not hard to dodge it with flash, but the problem is that lee will just ward hop u. fact: the average leaguer has a slower reaction speed than those who dont play video games. so play a sport or cs:go and improve ur reaction speed. (lol's reaction window is 250 ms while average is 110 ms)

AetherKingdomJan 5, 20151 votes

If you are a ranged and he can still W behind you to kick you while not having Q then you are way to close and way out of position. IF you are melee get some tank items and wow lee sin doesn't kill you.

OneriosJan 5, 20153 votes

That does not fix all his problems, but may be a hard enough kick to get him out of competitive play since it makes his ganks substantially less reliable. It's an absolutely massive nerf, no two ways about it, I remember both release him and zyra, the projectile speed adjustment on the latter hurt a lot, but to be quite honest knocking him back may end up being good for overall game health. Being able to balance the jungle without having to worry about him screwing things up would be nice for a start.

BismuthiniteJan 5, 20153 votes

Yea, Riot should definitely consider reverting buffs/nerfs instead of changing random other parts of a champion's kit.

Guy Fox TeemoJan 4, 20152 votes

I dont see why people complain about lee sin.. Yes he has a extremlly strong early but you have to do perfectly during that early game and feed your team if you don't you mean nothing the rest of the game. as lee has HUUUUGE down fall in late game unless he just goes full tank and becomes a meat shield. He doesn't do very much late game except for being the engager on team fights then just kinda being there in the fight...

The Epicer ONeJan 5, 20151 votes

i actually had a spark of hope that u were being sarcastic. i lose faith in the gameplay and balance section ;_;

Dankplank420Jan 5, 20152 votes

Yes. This x100. I'm tired of people claiming that he has a skillshot so must be hard to play. Lee Sin does have a very high skill ceiling, but also a very low skill floor. No champ should be able to destroy you because he lands one easy skillshot.

I would also take away ward jumping, he has enough mobility/escapes, and he doesn't need it.

AlphariteJan 5, 20152 votes

Wow, a nerf Lee thread! Good thing too, we haven't had one for at least 2 WHOLE HOURS!

ComBrandonJan 5, 20151 votes

Agreed.

StoningtonJan 5, 20151 votes

Reducing his projectile speed by more than 33% would ruin the champ. I'm pretty sure it's not one of the fastest projectiles. Do you have a chart of projectile speeds?

CindikleJan 5, 20151 votes

It's not really that fast to begin with.

But it could use a range decrease. Then make the first Q cover the whole energy cost, returning some for landing the second Q's damage. Making it so he can't spam the ability with no real cost.

I don't really mind the rest of his kit so much. I just hate that he has one of the longest non-ultimate gap closing abilities in the game that also has very little cost while also providing a lot of damage. Heck, some ultimates are jealous of it's damage.

Balance the Q. If he needs more he can get more.

TipehShepiTJan 5, 20151 votes

damn you guys cry more than Amumu if you think hes that op, then play him?

CoprophagiaJan 5, 20151 votes

There are better ways to balance a champion, Riot has confirmed he will be reworked soon because his mobility is overpowered. I've read alpha notes of turning him into an actual assassin instead of an assassin early game, and a tank late game, which I think was what he should have been in the first place. This way, you either have to build him one way or another, and his early ganking wont be as strong.

ChessburgerJan 5, 20151 votes

The simplest fix to lee would be to revert the last set of nerfs that deleted his atk speed slow on E and in turn make W jump work only on allied minions and champions. Boom, balanced.

Edit: let me try to explain. He was considered underpowered at the start even after the initial major buffs because he didn't bring team utility and wasn't particularly tanky compared to meta junglers of the time. Then meta changed a lot of things got changed and people figured out you could ward jump, he was strong in skilled hands then but still not overbearing. Then they released sightstone, a cheap health item that gave him 4 jumps that refresh every time he backs. That's when it got over the top. My proposition would be to shuffle some of his utility from ward jumps back into dueling power with the atk speed slow on E. That would make him have to expend an important 5min CD summoner spell in order to perform what is now relatively easy and cheap to perform combo of Q Q ward W R back into your team (would then have to be Q Q flash R). Then he would have to think hard who to kick as he can at present kick a low priority target to win a skirmish and still have the ability to do it again easily for the next fight.

Edit 2: Oh and give him his shield back on W if he jumps a minion. If what I've suggested would be implemented he could return to top lane if he chose so.

The Epicer ONeJan 5, 20151 votes

NOTE Im only saying lee's q is okay but his ward hop...why does he need it what r u talking about. like srsly its really easy to flash a lee q. ok

play a sport to lower ur reaction to at least 110 ms (like normal ppl) or starcraft
every spell has a .25 seconds if u cant do that.
flash/dash
Profit? (No lee will just 4->w)