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(RIOT) My last game proves that there's a problem with Season 5

ValyrianBlade··16 votes·1,753 views

Back in season 4, Riot made a change to experience granted by jungle monsters - it no longer scaled with their level to prevent junglers from snowballing out of control (in levels).

Last night, I played a game. At 16 minutes in to the game, total kills were 10 to 12. Of those, I had 6 as jungle Hecarim. The other team's top lane Riven had 5. Yet everyone on my team (myself included) were deathly afraid of Riven. Why?

Riven was level 13, I was level 10. Riven actually hit 14 before I hit 11 as well. Ignore that my 6 kills were spread 3/2/1 across 3 different opponents while 4 of her kills were on our top laner (who was 0/4) and the fifth was on our mid laner (who was 1/6 herself). Ignore that our mid laner had her game crash and connected 4 levels behind meaning that theoretically our team had more xp to spread across the 4 active members at the start of the game.

I'm not even bothered that despite me having 6 kills and Riven only having 5 that she would have more gold (items) than me. She was CS'ing spectacularly well (at the end of the 1:15 game she had 667 cs and 36.8k gold). What bothers me is that BECAUSE I WAS JUNGLER I COULDN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT A TOP LANER WHO FOR ALL ARGUMENTS HAD DONE WORSE IN THE GAME THAN ME.

Why is it that solo laners have access to SO MUCH more experience than Junglers? That despite having an extra kill and being a farm jungler with a solidly fast clear, I was more than 3 levels behind her? Riven played well, don't get me wrong. She got her advantage in lane. Rushed a tiamat for waveclear. Cleared her waves fast and then cleared my gromp and her golems (at least that's my guess) whenever she got the chance. That's part of the problem though. I'm already behind that I couldn't go fight her 1v1 at my gromp because she's got solo lane xp and cs. I can't invade the enemies jungle because she'll kill me if I invade top jungle and obviously Kha'zix will keep bottom jungle cleared himself since she's taking his top jungle (and if I try to invade no doubt I'll run in to him and since their Fizz was winning mid lane as well I'd no doubt die 1v2). I can't go tax my laners because they all need that experience themselves.

Anyways, my whole point is that this should NEVER happen. I had more kills and had played efficiently. I also had kills across 3 opponents (a few of which were shut down kills) while she basically beat up on our top laner over and over again for free kills. Despite that, she had 3+ levels on everyone else and could win any fight 1v2 (and later 1v4 as this snowballed). When teams undoubtedly have their skilled players in different roles, there shouldn't be such a large discrepancy in your ability to compete based on what role was selected. I SHOULDN'T BE BEHIND BECAUSE I WAS JUNGLING AND SHE WAS TOP, or at least I should only be a little behind.

So alas, my suggestion is simple: you need to tie bonus xp to the upgraded hunter's machetes. When Riven was level 13 with 5 kills in lane, I should have been level 12, or at least level 11, from 6 kills in the jungle. I definitely should have hit 12 before she hit 14, not her hitting 14 before I hit 11.

Anyways, if anyone cares, this ended up being one of the most fun, exciting, etc... games I ever played. (I'm allowed to share this right?) http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1712535703/216460380?tab=overview Team comps were Blue: Top: Nidalee Mid: Lux Jungle: Hecarim (me) ADC: Ezreal Support: Thresh

Red: Top: Riven Mid: Fizz Jungle: Kha'zix ADC: Miss Fortune Support: Braum

We had sufficient waveclear to defend through FIVE BARONS, to deny 6 surrender votes, and to fight despite a 15K team gold deficit. I STOLE the first dragon, secured the second, Lux STOLE the third dragon, they got the 4th, and we took the 5th dragon when they took Baron (so we had a 4-1 dragon lead with 2 of them stolen, we knew we couldn't fight them at Baron) and end of game dragons were 4-4. Ultimately having that 4th dragon when they got their first Baron probably saved us because they probably could have pushed for the win once or twice but instead retreated from our base to take dragon to make sure we didn't get 5. Despite being consistently down 2 inhibitors, we took our first inhibitor after the 1 hour mark. At 1:11 we managed a pick on Riven that resulted in 3 free kills and 2 inhibitors (shortly after they took 2 of ours). At 1:13 I ulted in to the Baron pit right as they took their 5th Baron, Ezreal cleaned up a free triple kill, we rushed to their base and Thresh and I tanked the two nexus turrets (as we had no minion waves) and secured the hard-earned win at 1:14 - about 30-40 minutes after I imagine we probably would have won if I'd have been an appropriate level to take on Riven, but nonetheless it was the most exciting game I've ever had. I REALLY wish I had a replay software.

17 Comments

SmokingPuffin6 votes

Why is it that solo laners have access to SO MUCH more experience than Junglers? That despite having an extra kill and being a farm jungler with a solidly fast clear, I was more than 3 levels behind her?

Simply put, a jungler that is equally strong to a laner in personal power has an overwhelming impact on the game. Season 5 is an attempt to make it so that the jungler isn't the deciding factor in almost all high level games.

Meanwhile, top lane has had the least influence on high level victory for some time, despite having considerable personal power. I'm sure Riot hopes that top laners have more carry potential in season 5 than season 4.

Now they're going to have to figure out how to make it feel good to jungle, because right now jungling feels pretty lame.

Vicarious1172 votes

Yeah I don't understand Riot's philosophy on this one either.... the last few seasons jungle was like the best place to carry from cause you could influence every lane and the entire map, or farm and stay out of trouble if you were behind!

But now, in this new jungle, you might as well play a supp jungler (or one who doesn't need gold to be at least good, like J4 for example), cause no matter how well you do, how fast you farm, how many kills or assists you get, you WILL be behind any enemy laner who isn't feeding.

I used to play assassin Rengar in the jungle and it was great! Lots of influence, could snowball myself and my teammates, but now you almost have to build tank cause you'll inevitably be so far behind in levels no matter how many kills you get that you won't have enough damage to play assassin Rengar to his base potential. I've been forced to play him Top and then just pray my mid and bot lanes don't go 2/12 in 10 mins like they typically do atm....

DrinkMoreWhiskey1 votes

You realize ganking a lot generally puts you behind in exp, not ahead right? Unless you're taxing a crap ton anyway.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

It's weird, I notice this too. Ganking, even if I secure a kill (or assist) still doesn't catch me up in levels.

NamesRHard3 votes

It's the worst feeling in the world too, when you have a "successful" gank that results in summoner spells blown but no kill. Now you're behind in exp and when you come back later to try to capitalize on the summoner being down you can't becuase you're 2-3 levels behind.

This happened to me twice in a row in a recent game. 1st clear, backed, got smite upgrade and boots. Ganked bot, got their support's flash. Cleared gromp, ganked mid, got their mid's flash. A minute later I was three levels behind their mid and could do very little to influence the lane.

I agree jg shouldn't be the snowball monster that it was in the past, but it really feels bad when you seem to be punished even when playing "well" (in this case I mean by securing summoners' but no kills).

Luna Loves Lulu1 votes

A match in S5 is over when you hear "any ally has been slain!" and you see a picture of the wolves, and your jungler, and it's 5 minutes in.

UnSeenDeath881 votes

Looks like you need to play a farming jungler like Udyr. He's became my personal favorite since the WW nerfs, you farm like hell and gank when it's a sure kill. Most games I've had with Udyr I'm behind early but if I can get a few solid ganks with a kill, or catch somebody out in river and kill them and return right to farming, I can generally be right in the middle level wise, might be a bit behind in CS until I get trinity, then I can farm and if it's a good game I can lead in farm, or be close and still help with kills. I might not be pushing with the team but, I'm still pushing lanes, and getting kills, in the mid to late game.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

I think that's the problem really.

Riot has balanced the jungle so that if you're farming the jungle non stop (not even basing to buy or heal) you'll be even in levels with solo laners (or negligibly behind).

This is wrong.

First, junglers have to take damage from camps. Laners have minions to soak damage. Next, junglers always miss out on xp when buying as they could clear camps in that time, laners can push the wave and get back without missing any xp (or maybe 1-2 minions). Finally, if all a jungler does is farm it puts his laners at a disadvantage if the enemy jungler ganks. It should only make sense that if a jungler sacrifices ganking he should actually out-level solo laners. A jungler who ganks very little should match them, and s jungler who ganks a lot should fall a bit behind.

The problem is the jungle is balanced to make junglers never have an advantage over laners regardless of what they do. Give xp so that if they farm non stop they can't out-level the lanes. Deal damage so that they can't gank early on high health And get kills easier than lanes. Give gold so that if they clear fast they won't have as much money as laners who suck at cs' ing (because we can't let junglers have so much more money in low quality matches).

There should be a median. If a jungler sacrifices ganks for farm, they should be able to get ahead At the expense of their map pressure.

Tusutaki1 votes

I went through the same thing actually.

Was playing Pantheon in the jungle. I've ganked all lanes and went 3/0/1 in the first 15min. At around 20min I started to notice something. As my score was 4/1/2 around that time frame, I was 2 or 3 levels behind everyone else. When I roamed to top to make the enemy top stop pushing from tower and possibly kill him, I noticed that he was lvl13 when I was lvl10. He did not have a great cs or score like your riven did but the level gap was appalling. Its absurd.

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

The way camp exp works, you're basically going to rebound to being 2-3 levels behind, regardless of what happens. If you fall behind you suddenly get insane amounts of exp, until you're where you should be, then you get very little again. Having that sort of thing in the game while the other exp streams are linear and independent of anything except the timer is kinda silly in my opinion.

It kinda makes sense, the jungler is kept down and then gradually catches up once laning is over and they're soaking exp from pushing the waves like everyone else, but it just feels shitty. Jungling would be a lot more fun if they retuned it so that you're only stuck one level down, and while that would be a huge buff to Lee and J4 (who imo are hurt by the way exp works right now but nobody wants to mention that on this board), it would increase jungle diversity beyond who can be a threat even though they're down 3 levels (part of the reason I've been doing so well on Vi is that being a little behind doesn't change what she can do, at least until she needs to be tanky and isn't.)

NoMonku1 votes

Junglers have had too much impact for awhile now. While it is unfortunate that even though you played well and that you lost, it is better overall that you were behind. If you were actually closer in levels, it would be fine in this scenario since you would potentially be able to fight against her, but what if you were just the only one fed? This will make the jungler have WAY too much impact on the game for having to take no to little risk besides showing up to a lane once in awhile. This will make snowball junglers such as Rek'Sai, Kha'Zix, Lee Sin, and Rengar incredibly obnoxious as they can easily snowball out of control.

ValyrianBlade5 votes

We actually won ;) it was just a lot harder than it should have been.

My problem is, why should a laner be allowed to snowball so hard by repetitively beating up on the same player (I.e. They don't even have to be good, they just need a bad opponent) while a jungler can't get ahead in levels despite killing a variety of opponents (so you actually have to be good, at least relative to the other team).

NoMonku1 votes

You should take into account the differences in lane compared to jungle if you want that argument. Lane has the "threat" of always being against an opposing champion or champions in bot lanes case. In jungle your only real time seeing an enemy champion is if you gank and/or an invade. All you will face in jungle is generically spawned camps and you don't lose anything if you don't kill them. In lane minions will eventually push down your tower giving the opposing team gold and a loss of map vision/control of the map for your team.

DisasterSola2 votes

{quoted}

You should take into account the differences in lane compared to jungle if you want that argument. Lane has the "threat" of always being against an opposing champion or champions in bot lanes case. In jungle your only real time seeing an enemy champion is if you gank and/or an invade. All you will face in jungle is generically spawned camps and you don't lose anything if you don't kill them. In lane minions will eventually push down your tower giving the opposing team gold and a loss of map vision/control of the map for your team.

Do you even understand how frustrating it is to play well and still be behind? I played a game of skarner the other day. I went 8/0/3 in twenty minutes.

I was level 12 when everyone else was 16. Even the support was level 15. seeing that makes me, the jungler, feel pathetic and worthless.

I think gold needs to be adjusted at the expense of EXP. Or i think that we need a new of items for "roaming". Soon enough were gonna have jungle being optional and just do roaming duo top.

NoMonku1 votes

I know it is frustrating, but I feel RIOT is trying to transition away from carry junglers being so dominant. I will admit that I am biased against carry junglers(as I don't like playing against them) so I am fine with them not having as much carry/kill potential as they did before. My problem with them is that before they were basically on par w/ a solo lane if they did really well. This basically makes it impossible to make a good play laning phase wise because you know if they pop out you will lose. At least with a fed laner, you will SEE them farming in lane, so you know you can try something where they aren't, but with a jungler this isn't as easy. Yes, you could try to ward, but there are way too many places to do it and you also do risk death if they are fed enough.

To me a jungler has always been an objective secure role and a secondary warder, with whatever their kit offers as secondary(CC, dmg, etc...) so as long as they are still able to do these things, I am fine with them for now.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

I understand your point, I really do.

I don't even disagree with it entirely. I just think that junglers sacrifice gold (since creeps are easier gold than camps) for that safety and shouldn't sacrifice a huge amount of levels too.

I guess my main problem is, right now the only thing that can deal with a solo laner is another solo laner. If the enemy top laner gets ahead by more than 1 kill (which in solo queue you're going to get people that feed kills after their first death, for some reason they just don't get that they should stay back), the only person on your team capable of shutting them down before the 30 min mark is your mid laner.

So what happens when top/mid loses like this, the other is going even, but jungle, adc and support are all winning pretty hard? You still lose fights because solo lanes just matter that much more.

In my opinion, you should never be in a role where regardless of how well you do you can't shut down another player (at least not for a considerable time). Obviously I'm biased here because I main adc/mid/jungle and don't get mid often since it's popular. The number of games where I'm jg/adc and I have the most kills on the map (and when adc the most cs) but an enemy top/mid destroys me because of a level disadvantage is ridiculous.

Basically, a good top/mid can recognize the other team has a good jg/adc/sp and rotate and shut them down hard to get their teammates a lead. A good jg/adc/sp can recognize the enemy team has a good top/mid and just hope they can convince their team to turtle and defend for 30 minutes until they catch up in levels and can fight. I just see a huge imbalance here. At least with junglers it is fixable without destroying balance (junglers never used to be so far behind in levels), it would take a lot more effort to help adcs and since they're supposed to be late game carries I'm not sure if a change is really needed there.

LongFur Fox1 votes

Play efficiently and on a good game you can still have as much xp as laners.

Sure it is not something you can do every game but that is the price to pay for having the largest strategic impact on a game.

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