Hi Riot, what is Diana?

Masala Chai·Apr 17, 2016·4 votes·8,170 views

So when you're talking about end year class updates, you listed divers, assassins, and big tanks as champion classes that are under current consideration for those updates.

When Diana was originally released, you originally put her as a Jungling AP Bruiser that could hold the front line in engages or dive the backline to assassinate carries. We all know that people just started playing her midlane.

I'm curious what to know as what you classify Diana as in your hearts, is she an AP Burst Diver? or is she an AoE AP Assassin? Or are you going to change her numbers around so that she becomes that Jungling AP Bruiser that you always wanted her to be. If you do rework Diana for divers or assassins, will Diana be under strong consideration for a mini rework? Or a number tweak?

2 downloads :(

39 Comments

RiotMeddlerApr 17, 20167 votes

We feel she's more diver than assassin overall, though she's pretty close to the border between the two. Her shield, passive rewarding repeated auto attacking and need to stay in a fight once she goes in push her towards diver overall (assassins generally have avoidance instead of durability, patterns without ongoing AA dependence and ways out of a fight).

Having said that I could see Diana getting numbers adjustments at the least as part of an assassin or diver update.

ProfDrDeathApr 17, 20161 votes

Isn't the same true for Ekko, being close to the border between diver and assassin?

His W passive also rewards repeated auto-ing, he has a shield, and his alpha strike damage is rather low if he does not use auto-attacks (Q's damage is mainly in the return, his passive requires at least 1 further auto to proc reliably).

On the assassin side, he only has a way out of the fight with his ultimate.

RiotMeddlerApr 17, 20168 votes

Yeah, Ekko's definitely got some diver elements to him too, though his ult is a pretty massive out. He's also got some similarities to the skirmisher class (Yasuo, Trynd, Yi etc), so he doesn't fall cleanly into a category. Tank builds make him even harder to assess, we don't feel it's appropriate that those are his most effective builds though and are working to address that at present, pushing him back towards a squishier, more damage focused playstyle.

Jeddy017Apr 17, 20161 votes

Skirmisher,interesting. So,the Fighter role is composed of Skirmishers,Juggernauts & Divers?.....Yeah,I think that covers all the Fighters.

ThinatoApr 17, 20161 votes

Hi, long time lurker. Is it safe to say then that light fighters are getting the "skirmisher" designation then? I know in another thread you had expressed some reluctance.

Either way, in regards to divers, I have a small interest in boxing (very small but I went down that rabbit hole one evening for some reason, I digress) and when you say things on divers (indirectly) like:

"assassins generally have avoidance instead of durability, patterns without ongoing AA dependence, and ways out of a fight"

it makes me think of a style of boxing called "in-boxing", "swarming", or "crowding". From the Wikipedia article:

"The swarmer (in-fighter, crowder) is a fighter who attempts to overwhelm his opponent by applying constant pressure. Swarmers tend to have a very good bob and weave, good power, a good chin, and a tremendous punch output (resulting in a great need for stamina and conditioning)."

"They also tend to have a good "chin" because this style usually involves being hit with many jabs before they can maneuver inside where they are more effective.[2] Many swarmers are often either shorter fighters or fighters with shorter reaches, especially in the heavier classes, that have to get in close to be effective."

Its not perfect seeing as its an apples to oranges comparison but its just my two cents. People may not know what in-boxing is but crowding and swarming are concepts I would imagine they are familiar with as designations.

SuperLuigiLXIVApr 17, 20161 votes

I still say you should call them raiders instead :P

QuephaApr 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, Ekko's definitely got some diver elements to him too, though his ult is a pretty massive out. He's also got some similarities to the skirmisher class (Yasuo, Trynd, Yi etc), so he doesn't fall cleanly into a category. Tank builds make him even harder to assess, we don't feel it's appropriate that those are his most effective builds though and are working to address that at present, pushing him back towards a squishier, more damage focused playstyle.

Is his ult really an avoidance tool? It feels like the best use case is to use it to undo a LOT of enemy damage, effectively wasting their cooldowns, and Ekko can only undo a LOT of damage if he has a LOT of durability to survive it all.

Jeddy017Apr 17, 20162 votes

Do you think Ekko have a little too much utility for an assassin or diver?

MhihnjApr 17, 20161 votes

his alpha strike

wha....

ProfDrDeathApr 17, 20161 votes

In this case, alpha strike refers to the initial burst.

Alpha Strike is the name of Yi's Q.

SolideusApr 17, 20161 votes

So that's to say champions on the border between two classes might see smaller scope changes come a class update for either class, like the really light changes for Urgot during the Marksman Update?

RiotMeddlerApr 17, 20163 votes

Potentially yeah. Sometimes that might just mean small adjustments like some other members of the class in question. Other times it might mean pushing them more towards one class if their current strengths/weaknesses aren't sufficiently defined.

SolideusApr 17, 20161 votes

Just to be clear, let's make Diana an example; if you're doing an Assassin Update but you believe Diana should mostly be a Diver, could you still decide to make small stat adjustments to her or even make changes to move her away from the Assassin class in the same sweep? Or would you perhaps just save her for a later Diver Update?

Not to set expectations or make promises, I realize plans change over time, but I'm curious what the current thinking is about champions on the border between two classes in relation to Class Updates.

I think it's healthy to have some champs on the border between classes, but I still think it's proper to have a "main" class to work around so there's a common direction for different people working on the champion over the years.

The Yetii RiderApr 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Potentially yeah. Sometimes that might just mean small adjustments like some other members of the class in question. Other times it might mean pushing them more towards one class if their current strengths/weaknesses aren't sufficiently defined.

If you do push Diana to a diver style champion, will you be changing her ultimate at all? Making it only target champions or removing the reset mechanic, to guarantee that once she's gone in, she stays in?

ShadowParkerApr 17, 20161 votes

This is a kindve related question.

Would you say Nocturne is a pretty good candidate for the potential diver roster project

Irelia BotApr 17, 20161 votes

For having a lot of her damage being in her passive she is kinda gated by her low attack speed.

Has there been consideration to make Diana's sustained damage a bit better past early to mid game by increasing her base attack speed and reducing or removing her passive % bonus attack speed? This might open her up to items like wit's end as being fairly standard given her high amount of magic damage.

I know other numbers would need to be changed if something like this were to happen.

BurningRiceApr 18, 20161 votes

Nocturne

C9 Scott Free Apr 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

We feel she's more diver than assassin overall, though she's pretty close to the border between the two. Her shield, passive rewarding repeated auto attacking and need to stay in a fight once she goes in push her towards diver overall (assassins generally have avoidance instead of durability, patterns without ongoing AA dependence and ways out of a fight).

Having said that I could see Diana getting numbers adjustments at the least as part of an assassin or diver update.

Meddler Diana is the reason I played the game in the first place. Like literally her kit etc. You can check the archives for a thread entitled "Hell Riot, I love Diana. Let's talk about her please." Where I talked extensively about my love of the champ on my other account Maximum Jarvan. She is an assassin its even the first word used in her spotlight class description. Please dont take that from her and make her another dive bruiser. The odds of not making her just some faceless bruiser outshined by the likes of nocturne zac and malphite are pretty low as is. Not to mention she is a good pick into many mid lane assassins while still allowing your team to have an AP threat and there needs to still be reasons for people to at least somewhat hesitate to instalock things like Zed, LB and Talon besides playing Morg mid or Heim

CosnirakApr 17, 20161 votes

I don't feel like her passive encourages repeated autos. In part because people tend to die long before two passive procs, but also because she can just wait till it's her next hit to go in some times.

Her ult often lets her escape later on, though she tends to rely on zhonya's a lot as part of her way to get out. But sadly her typical escapes come from just walking away, because as you said she's durable.

To me the biggest different between divers and assassins are simply the speed at which they kill people and in trade the tankiness they have. Diana doesn't fit cleanly into either class because she kills people super fast and is as tanky as a diver. Essentially, she's too good at what she does. :p

C9 Scott Free Apr 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I don't feel like her passive encourages repeated autos. In part because people tend to die long before two passive procs, but also because she can just wait till it's her next hit to go in some times.

Her ult often lets her escape later on, though she tends to rely on zhonya's a lot as part of her way to get out. But sadly her typical escapes come from just walking away, because as you said she's durable.

To me the biggest different between divers and assassins are simply the speed at which they kill people and in trade the tankiness they have. Diana doesn't fit cleanly into either class because she kills people super fast and is as tanky as a diver. Essentially, she's too good at what she does. :p

I really wish people were more honest when talking about diana. She gets blown up as fast as any other mage it is just a matter of focusing her which should be easy seeing as she has to commit to the fight. She's not too good at what she does. If you watch pro play you would know that seeing as she sees pretty much none of it.

CosnirakApr 17, 20161 votes

She gets blown up as fast as any other mage it is just a matter of focusing her which should be easy seeing as she has to commit to the fight.

Objectively false. Not only is she tankier, she's not a mage.

If you watch pro play you would know that seeing as she sees pretty much none of it.

Seeing pro play or not is far from the only factor when it comes to whether or not a champion is op. Diana is insanely good at what she does, but what she does isn't necessarily what's wanted in the meta right now, particularly in pro play.

C9 Scott Free Apr 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Objectively false. Not only is she tankier, she's not a mage.

Seeing pro play or not is far from the only factor when it comes to whether or not a champion is op. Diana is insanely good at what she does, but what she does isn't necessarily what's wanted in the meta right now, particularly in pro play.

Except it isn't false. At all. Anyone who plays AP Diana would know this. You clearly dont play her. And if Zed is still seeing play in the pro league pretty sure back line deleting is still highly desireable. You should probably go watch her spotlight where the very first class word to describe her is assassin. So She's an assassin that builds AP and deals magic damage. Sounds like a melee mage/assassin to me. She does just enough but to put this in perspective for you Tank Ekko is considered broken. This is something whined about by the community and even pros that play him outright feel that he is too strong. See how that works? If something is too good it gets pro play. If it is just ok then it doesn't. It's really just that simple.

CosnirakApr 18, 20161 votes

Diana has tankier base stats than other assassins such as Zed and Akali. She also has an effectively 60% ap scaling shield on a base 10 second cd. She IS tankier than typical assassins. Just claiming that isn't true doesn't change the facts. However, her escape is a bit less guaranteed than most assassins. This is why she's listed as a fighter and not an assassin in the client. I think she is an assassin because she just deletes people so easily with her ridiculous burst. And that's the problem, she deletes people easily AND she's a little tanky. This is why it isn't clear to some as to whether or not she's an assassin or a diver.

Tons of the highest win rate champions in the game don't see much if any pro play, because the way games work is so different for the pros. Volibear and Kayle are both in the top 5 win rates at over 54% for plat+ games. But will you see either in pro games? Nope.

I'm not even saying Diana is too good at winning the game anyways. I'm saying she's too good at deleting people while also being tanky.

C9 Scott Free Apr 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Diana has tankier base stats than other assassins such as Zed and Akali. She also has an effectively 60% ap scaling shield on a base 10 second cd. She IS tankier than typical assassins. Just claiming that isn't true doesn't change the facts. However, her escape is a bit less guaranteed than most assassins. This is why she's listed as a fighter and not an assassin in the client. I think she is an assassin because she just deletes people so easily with her ridiculous burst. And that's the problem, she deletes people easily AND she's a little tanky. This is why it isn't clear to some as to whether or not she's an assassin or a diver.

Tons of the highest win rate champions in the game don't see much if any pro play, because the way games work is so different for the pros. Volibear and Kayle are both in the top 5 win rates at over 54% for plat+ games. But will you see either in pro games? Nope.

I'm not even saying Diana is too good at winning the game anyways. I'm saying she's too good at deleting people while also being tanky.

Except shes not even one of the highest winning champs in this game. And tanky is deceptive at best because you make it sound like she just shwos up and one v fives. She isn't especially durable she ends up with maybe a few points of MR than Zed if she has MR blues and goes Abyssal and no one is claiming zed is tanky. And a Talon is going to erase her just as fast as he erases an ADC calling her tanky is deceptive. You can say she is slighlty more durable. And her burst is easier to dodge than LB unless you really really feed her. Also easier to dodge than Fizz. I mean really she's not a good champ to complain about because she has so much counterplay.

So say it with me. She can last a little bit longer but isn't truly tanky. Anyone that plays her extensively would laugh at the idea because they would have had enough getting erased experiences.

CosnirakApr 18, 20161 votes

Except shes not even one of the highest winning champs in this game.

You're still missing the point. She's really good at what she does, but that doesn't mean what she does is what you want or need to win the game. Win rate alone doesn't tell you if a champion is really good at its job or not. Please, let the win rate issue go.

And tanky is deceptive at best

No it isn't. Her base hp % hp regen are higher, mr higher, armor the same. She also has a powerful shield on a low cd. There's nothing deceptive about that.

you make it sound like she just shwos up and one v fives.

No I didn't.

She isn't especially durable she ends up with maybe a few points of MR than Zed if she has MR blues and goes Abyssal and no one is claiming zed is tanky. And a Talon is going to erase her just as fast as he erases an ADC calling her tanky is deceptive.

That's simply not true. Zed and Diana have the same mr and nearly the same armor (hers starts <1 lower and ends up <1 higher). But she has a little more hp, hp regen. However... SHE HAS A VERY IMPORTANT AND POWERFUL SHIELD. Talon is absolutely 100000%, without any doubt, NOT going to blow her up as easily as an ADC, even before she gets Zhonya's, which she almost always gets at some point.

her burst is easier to dodge than LB

Also easier to dodge than Fizz.

No, it isn't.

I mean really she's not a good champ to complain about because she has so much counterplay.

She does a nearly instant and point and click 260% AP ratio burst, all because she landed one easy to hit, passthrough skillshot with a 70% AP ratio, at up to 830 range. She has a pull + slow so you can't run, and a shield in case you want to turn on her... Positively oozing with counterplay. /sarcasm

Even without landing a skill shot she can just give up one ulti use (60% AP and 100-220 base damage) and just decide that you have to flash or die in a lot of cases, especially since she'll easily land the Q after ulting to you and pulling + slowing you.

Anyone that plays her extensively would laugh at the idea because they would have had enough getting erased experiences.

Is that why she regularly turret dives full hp squishies at lvl 6 and simply walks out alive?

C9 Scott Free Apr 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You're still missing the point. She's really good at what she does, but that doesn't mean what she does is what you want or need to win the game. Win rate alone doesn't tell you if a champion is really good at its job or not. Please, let the win rate issue go.

No it isn't. Her base hp % hp regen are higher, mr higher, armor the same. She also has a powerful shield on a low cd. There's nothing deceptive about that.

No I didn't.

That's simply not true. Zed and Diana have the same mr and nearly the same armor (hers starts <1 lower and ends up <1 higher). But she has a little more hp, hp regen. However... SHE HAS A VERY IMPORTANT AND POWERFUL SHIELD. Talon is absolutely 100000%, without any doubt, NOT going to blow her up as easily as an ADC, even before she gets Zhonya's, which she almost always gets at some point.

No, it isn't.

She does a nearly instant and point and click 260% AP ratio burst, all because she landed one easy to hit, passthrough skillshot with a 70% AP ratio, at up to 830 range. She has a pull + slow so you can't run, and a shield in case you want to turn on her... Positively oozing with counterplay. /sarcasm

Even without landing a skill shot she can just give up one ulti use (60% AP and 100-220 base damage) and just decide that you have to flash or die in a lot of cases, especially since she'll easily land the Q after ulting to you and pulling + slowing you.

Is that why she regularly turret dives full hp squishies at lvl 6 and simply walks out alive?

So basically even though she isn't stomping and winning a bunch of games you dont think thats a sign that maybe she isn't too oppressive. Even though she isn't deemed good enough for pro play you still think she's too strong? The people who spam the strongest stuff barely look at her. How does that not send up a flag to you?

Zed gets maw is he tanky then since that gives him a shield? No you would laugh if someone says that.

You can't dodge a single skill shot even once? Have you never played against a Q max Leblanc. QRW and you will be dead or close to it just after one item. Also, her ult is interupptable. If low elo Dravens can E me while I'm dashing to them there is counterplay another thing. That puts her ult on cooldown even if it deals no damage. You can stop her mid ult.

You think A fizz using e to land on top of you dropping a shark on your face and then dashing through with Q is easier to dodge than a skill shot that hooks. if you can't dodge a max range Diana Q that you mentioned in particular thats literally on you unless you get creep blocked which is about positioning.

The only way a Diana is diving you at level 6 is with jungle help which is coordinated or if you were already softened up and you have no CC or somehow miss every ability. Literally just play Ahri or Lux and as soon as she's under tower use light binding or charm and she will die period.

Diana's job is to dive the backline and erase a squishy member. You're the one saying she is too good at that. Champions that are too good at their jobs win more games. Voli is super strong because he has damage that scales on health which he builds to be tanky and still gets to chomp on people and his ganks are pretty solid. He's not in pro play because coordination shits all over him. And you've clearly never played against a Talon as Diana after getting set behind by a gank because getting bursted by Talon pre hourglass is pretty easy.

Also the main strength of the shield is in its scaling and needs levels. Her shield is not allowing her to tank 4 tower shots and come out alive. If that happens you messed up. You dropped the ball. No one should dive you one v one at level 6 and take a bunch fo shots without dying.

I think you dont want to accept that maybe just maybe you goof agaisnt her and probably get into your own head. I bet you play stuff like Ziggs or Karthus against her and then get mad she's bursting you out. Calling someone tanky when they will never get to some ridiculous status where they can get focus fired is deceptive. You are not being honest when you say that. I just played a game as her and if I would have run MR blues I would have had 65 MR at level 18 and then if I had built abyssal maybe about 110. Is that really what it means to be tanky in your eyes? That means nothing when you factor in an AP mid is gonna build a void staff and probably sorc boots and their own abyssal dropping it all back down to like 50 MR if that.

C9 Scott Free Apr 18, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=C9 Feel The Bern,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ddKZQNMl,comment-id=000100030000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-18T03:27:59.834+0000)

So basically even though she isn't stomping and winning a bunch of games you dont think thats a sign that maybe she isn't too oppressive. Even though she isn't deemed good enough for pro play you still think she's too strong? The people who spam the strongest stuff barely look at her. How does that not send up a flag to you?

Zed gets maw is he tanky then since that gives him a shield? No you would laugh if someone says that.

You can't dodge a single skill shot even once? Have you never played against a Q max Leblanc. QRW and you will be dead or close to it just after one item. Also, her ult is interupptable. If low elo Dravens can E me while I'm dashing to them there is counterplay another thing. That puts her ult on cooldown even if it deals no damage. You can stop her mid ult.

You think A fizz using e to land on top of you dropping a shark on your face and then dashing through with Q is easier to dodge than a skill shot that hooks. if you can't dodge a max range Diana Q that you mentioned in particular thats literally on you unless you get creep blocked which is about positioning.

The only way a Diana is diving you at level 6 is with jungle help which is coordinated or if you were already softened up and you have no CC or somehow miss every ability. Literally just play Ahri or Lux and as soon as she's under tower use light binding or charm and she will die period.

Diana's job is to dive the backline and erase a squishy member. You're the one saying she is too good at that. Champions that are too good at their jobs win more games. Voli is super strong because he has damage that scales on health which he builds to be tanky and still gets to chomp on people and his ganks are pretty solid. He's not in pro play because coordination shits all over him. And you've clearly never played against a Talon as Diana after getting set behind by a gank because getting bursted by Talon pre hourglass is pretty easy.

Also the main strength of the shield is in its scaling and needs levels. Her shield is not allowing her to tank 4 tower shots and come out alive. If that happens you messed up. You dropped the ball. No one should dive you one v one at level 6 and take a bunch fo shots without dying.

I think you dont want to accept that maybe just maybe you goof agaisnt her and probably get into your own head. I bet you play stuff like Ziggs or Karthus against her and then get mad she's bursting you out. Calling someone tanky when they will never get to some ridiculous status where they can get focus fired is deceptive. You are not being honest when you say that. I just played a game as her and if I would have run MR blues I would have had 65 MR at level 18 and then if I had built abyssal maybe about 110. Is that really what it means to be tanky in your eyes? That means nothing when you factor in an AP mid is gonna build a void staff and probably sorc boots and their own abyssal dropping it all back down to like 50 MR if that.

Also, maybe try playing something like Graves, Lucian, Ezreal, Corki, etc who can all get away if they actually wait until the pull is used instead of trying to mash all the buttons immediately.

CosnirakApr 18, 20161 votes

So basically even though she isn't stomping and winning a bunch of games you dont think thats a sign that maybe she isn't too oppressive. Even though she isn't deemed good enough for pro play you still think she's too strong?

At what she's good at yet? Yes! At winning the game? No. I went over this already. Do you not comprehend the words? Seriously? She is decently vulnerable to ganks pre 6. TP got nerfed, zhonya's got nerfed. Lots of her potential targets are regularly buying maw and sterak's now. Supports are playing Thresh, Alistar, and Janna. Tops are playing tanks. And yet despite all of that stacked against her she's doing fine.

Zed gets maw is he tanky then since that gives him a shield? No you would laugh if someone says that.

You don't recognize the difference between a 60% AP scaling, 10 second base cooldown shield, and the Lifeline proc? -_-

You can't dodge a single skill shot even once?

I've dodged many Diana Qs. Know what happens? She throws out another one not much later... She only has to land one to combo you. She kills squishies from full hp in the mid game in a single combo.

Also, her ult is interupptable.

Yeah, just not with most champions. And only if fast enough. And your ability that does it is off cd.

You think A fizz using e to land on top of you dropping a shark on your face and then dashing through with Q is easier to dodge than a skill shot that hooks.

I never said that. I just said it isn't harder.

if you can't dodge a max range Diana Q that you mentioned in particular thats literally on you unless you get creep blocked which is about positioning.

Or you're cced. Or it's from inside a bush. Or she just does a good job of anticipating where you'll dodge. It's not exactly a slow flying projectile. Nor is it that far away. Also because of its crescent shape it naturally cuts off some angles of dodging compared to say a straight shot ability.

The only way a Diana is diving you at level 6 is with jungle help which is coordinated or if you were already softened up and you have no CC or somehow miss every ability. Literally just play Ahri or Lux and as soon as she's under tower use light binding or charm and she will die period.

Flat out false. I've been full hp as Morg mid, had her dive me 100% under turret, shield myself, landed my Q on her, and she not only killed me but walked out alive. We were both level 6... It was her first kill. She simply does THAT MUCH DAMAGE. And she is simply THAT TANKY. That's the problem.

Champions that are too good at their jobs win more games.

No, sometimes they don't. Each champion has its own strengths and weaknesses, including outside of their main job. Zed is not just a good assassin, he has amazing wave clear, is really safe against ganks, and can poke people down without ever going oom. His plat+ win rate is <.3% higher than Dianas, he barely sees a small bit of pro play. But is he weak or bad at his primary job? Not even a little. It's all just way more complicated than that. One day you might understand that.

Also the main strength of the shield is in its scaling and needs levels.

No it doesn't. It scales with AP, 60% in fact. It doesn't even get as much from levels as many other shields in the game.

Her shield is not allowing her to tank 4 tower shots and come out alive.

Yes, it is. Though to be fair, that's not that hard considering how little damage turrets do.

If that happens you messed up. You dropped the ball. No one should dive you one v one at level 6 and take a bunch fo shots without dying.

No one should and yet so very many champions can. Because it's not that hard.

I think you dont want to accept that maybe just maybe you goof agaisnt her and probably get into your own head. I bet you play stuff like Ziggs or Karthus against her and then get mad she's bursting you out.

Now you're just hardcore demonizing. You're imagining I'm just some bronze 5 noob who plays nothing but the squishiest and most defenseless champions and even then I play it all wrong. Well you're wrong.

Calling someone tanky when they will never get to some ridiculous status where they can get focus fired is deceptive. You are not being honest when you say that.

Tanky does NOT mean tank. They are very different things. You apparently don't know that, so I doubt me telling you will truly cause it to sink in, but I'm trying anyways. Saying something is tanky is like when you say something is chicken flavored. That means there's absolutely no chicken in the thing, yet it tastes kind of like chicken.

I just played a game as her and if I would have run MR blues I would have had 65 MR at level 18 and then if I had built abyssal maybe about 110. Is that really what it means to be tanky in your eyes?

YES! xD It's more than squishies typically have, by far. Two of her core items are abyssal scepter and zhonya's. Moderate resistances + hp = tanky. She has tons of effective hp due to her shield, therefore she gets tanky.

Also, maybe try playing something like Graves, Lucian, Ezreal, Corki, etc who can all get away if they actually wait until the pull is used instead of trying to mash all the buttons immediately.

Yeah, that way she has to wait a second before pressing R a second time and killing you anyways. xD Though seriously, it does help because then she's further up the lane and more likely to die to a turn around or counter gank. It does not save the adc though. Also I mostly mid.

C9 Scott Free Apr 18, 20162 votes

{quoted}

At what she's good at yet? Yes! At winning the game? No. I went over this already. Do you not comprehend the words? Seriously? She is decently vulnerable to ganks pre 6. TP got nerfed, zhonya's got nerfed. Lots of her potential targets are regularly buying maw and sterak's now. Supports are playing Thresh, Alistar, and Janna. Tops are playing tanks. And yet despite all of that stacked against her she's doing fine.

You don't recognize the difference between a 60% AP scaling, 10 second base cooldown shield, and the Lifeline proc? -_-

I've dodged many Diana Qs. Know what happens? She throws out another one not much later... She only has to land one to combo you. She kills squishies from full hp in the mid game in a single combo.

Yeah, just not with most champions. And only if fast enough. And your ability that does it is off cd.

I never said that. I just said it isn't harder.

Or you're cced. Or it's from inside a bush. Or she just does a good job of anticipating where you'll dodge. It's not exactly a slow flying projectile. Nor is it that far away. Also because of its crescent shape it naturally cuts off some angles of dodging compared to say a straight shot ability.

Flat out false. I've been full hp as Morg mid, had her dive me 100% under turret, shield myself, landed my Q on her, and she not only killed me but walked out alive. We were both level 6... It was her first kill. She simply does THAT MUCH DAMAGE. And she is simply THAT TANKY. That's the problem.

No, sometimes they don't. Each champion has its own strengths and weaknesses, including outside of their main job. Zed is not just a good assassin, he has amazing wave clear, is really safe against ganks, and can poke people down without ever going oom. His plat+ win rate is <.3% higher than Dianas, he barely sees a small bit of pro play. But is he weak or bad at his primary job? Not even a little. It's all just way more complicated than that. One day you might understand that.

No it doesn't. It scales with AP, 60% in fact. It doesn't even get as much from levels as many other shields in the game.

Yes, it is. Though to be fair, that's not that hard considering how little damage turrets do.

No one should and yet so very many champions can. Because it's not that hard.

Now you're just hardcore demonizing. You're imagining I'm just some bronze 5 noob who plays nothing but the squishiest and most defenseless champions and even then I play it all wrong. Well you're wrong.

Tanky does NOT mean tank. They are very different things. You apparently don't know that, so I doubt me telling you will truly cause it to sink in, but I'm trying anyways. Saying something is tanky is like when you say something is chicken flavored. That means there's absolutely no chicken in the thing, yet it tastes kind of like chicken.

YES! xD It's more than squishies typically have, by far. Two of her core items are abyssal scepter and zhonya's. Moderate resistances + hp = tanky. She has tons of effective hp due to her shield, therefore she gets tanky.

Yeah, that way she has to wait a second before pressing R a second time and killing you anyways. xD Though seriously, it does help because then she's further up the lane and more likely to die to a turn around or counter gank. It does not save the adc though. Also I mostly mid.

So basically, she is too good at bursting you if she catches you with your pants down like any assassin? Not a valid complaint or reason to say too good. I've played against morg mid. You lost that match up because the Diana was a way better Diana than you are more. If you had Max w she would have been under tower the whole time and taking pool damage.

Her shield relies on scaling as in it stays at one point until level 8 and she won't have substantial AP until later

Saying she's tank because she has 53 MR is bad because that's normAl for melee champions. Ranged champions don't get scaling MR so they have a drawback.

Complaining about her outplaying aka anticipation is also illogical. You were playing Morg who has one if the craziest weird hit boxes in the game but I'm sure if I said she was too good at killing people you would laugh.

There is no point in the game where a Diana can safely dive a Morg unless she's reAlly or morg misplayed. Ask other Diana players. It just doesn't work. You go in she presses R activates black shield drop a pool and q riots once the stun is over and you die there or base.

You're basically saying you want her nerfed because you're bad at playing against her. And I've played against enough maw Steraks adds to know that one spell rotation is hot killing then anymore.

CosnirakApr 18, 20161 votes

So basically, she is too good at bursting you if she catches you with your pants down like any assassin? Not a valid complaint or reason to say too good.

She bursts as well as an assassin, that alone wouldn't be a problem. She's also as tanky as a diver, and again that alone wouldn't be a problem. But she's that good at both, and that is a problem. Of course I've already explained this two or more times before now, so I'm not really expecting it to sink in this time either...

I've played against morg mid. You lost that match up because the Diana was a way better Diana than you are more. If you had Max w she would have been under tower the whole time and taking pool damage.

That's one hell of an assumption, multiple assumptions actually. I do max W first. Shoving Diana to tower all day just gets you killed by their jungler or dove by Diana if she lands a couple Qs pre 6 or just a single Q post 6.

Even if it weren't for those issues it's not that effective to try to shove Diana all day. Her waveclear is pretty good, in part thanks to her passive. Also Morgana has ridiculously bad mana early on, shoving waves all day with W leavers her oom really fast. Trying to use a lot of autos on minions to aid your Ws as Morg leaves you a lot more vulnerable to poke because locking in that aa animation makes it nearly impossible to dodge fast abilities like Diana's Q so you have to be really careful how and where you use them if Diana's Q isn't on cd.

Her shield relies on scaling as in it stays at one point until level 8 and she won't have substantial AP until later

Which is one of the reasons she's not that great against ganks pre 6. Though saying it stays at one point until lvl 8 is a bit of a stretch. She tends to back one to three times before lvl 8, in part because she has TP, and usually buys some extra AP while doing so. She might also have scaling AP runes. It might not be "substantial AP" but it still matters, especially when repeated several times over the course of laning.

Saying she's tank because she has 53 MR is bad because that's normAl for melee champions.

You're really bad at understanding what I write... MR/lvl alone doesn't make someone tanky, and sure as hell doesn't make someone a tank. But particularly when combined with hp or effective hp (such as her shield...), it can contribute a lot towards making someone tank_y_. She often buys abyssal scepter first when her lane opponent is a mage, further increasing this effect.

Complaining about her outplaying aka anticipation is also illogical. You were playing Morg who has one if the craziest weird hit boxes in the game but I'm sure if I said she was too good at killing people you would laugh.

I never complained about her outplaying anyone. Morg's only hitbox shenanigans is the width of her Q and ever since the update to her spell textures it's not that far off. Still, I don't laugh at people who complain that they got hit by it when it clearly didn't hit them visually.

Morg is actually awful at killing people, but that's not Morg's job. If someone complained Morg is too good at catching/ccing people their complaint would at least make sense, though considering the speed of her Q (and the fact that it isn't passthrough) and the long channel time of her R, I'd be inclined to disagree. People regularly complain about the root duration on Morg's Q, and yeah, at max ranks it is long. Without that duration her W damage would be almost a non factor 1v1 and setting up her own R stuns would almost never happen. However, her long Q root can be pretty oppressive when she has allies to follow up, which is a big part of why Morg support (who maxes Q first usually) is a thing.

There is no point in the game where a Diana can safely dive a Morg unless she's reAlly or morg misplayed. Ask other Diana players. It just doesn't work. You go in she presses R activates black shield drop a pool and q riots once the stun is over and you die there or base.

I'm gonna assume "really" is supposed to say "really fed." The problem is that Morg doesn't survive Diana's burst, despite black shield. So the R stun never happens. The Q root isn't long enough early on because as mid Morg you're maxing W first. Morg's W does increased damage based on missing hp. Morg can't really poke Diana down before hand without running oom using W or landing Qs Diana should never be hit by. Plus Diana's shield in trades and while diving keep her hp high for longer than most.

Later on, Morg's Q will go up in ranks and she gets decent AP so her burst damage from Q + R is a lot higher, making her W even more effective, but at lvl 6 none of this is the case. Diana's shield also prevents damage, reducing Morgana's healing from her spell vamp passive, reducing her effective hp a little. So Diana combos Morg, Morg's R never does its secondary damage or stun, and Diana casually walks away with ease...

You're basically saying you want her nerfed because you're bad at playing against her.

When did I ever say I wanted her nerfed in this thread? I don't want Diana straight up nerfed, I want her power shifted some. I want her to have some counterplay post 6 besides "throw cc at her and pray." I want her to not be quite so damn snowbally due to scaling both offensively and defensively in large amounts, and both from the same stat (like Riven, who is a problem for the same reason). I want her weaknesses to exist without having to out number her.

And I've played against enough maw Steraks adds to know that one spell rotation is hot killing then anymore.

Early on no, but by the time most people get those items Diana often has some AP as well. Her sustained damage due to her passive and low cds means can still get the kills in a lot of cases. The champs that can rush Maw vs her can be a bit of a problem sure, but she can roam well, especially with TP, and find kills elsewhere easily. Still, maw and sterak's are effective against her and this season have hurt her win rate. And yet her win rate is still fine... What does that tell you about how good she is?

C9 Scott Free Apr 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

She bursts as well as an assassin, that alone wouldn't be a problem. She's also as tanky as a diver, and again that alone wouldn't be a problem. But she's that good at both, and that is a problem. Of course I've already explained this two or more times before now, so I'm not really expecting it to sink in this time either...

That's one hell of an assumption, multiple assumptions actually. I do max W first. Shoving Diana to tower all day just gets you killed by their jungler or dove by Diana if she lands a couple Qs pre 6 or just a single Q post 6.

Even if it weren't for those issues it's not that effective to try to shove Diana all day. Her waveclear is pretty good, in part thanks to her passive. Also Morgana has ridiculously bad mana early on, shoving waves all day with W leavers her oom really fast. Trying to use a lot of autos on minions to aid your Ws as Morg leaves you a lot more vulnerable to poke because locking in that aa animation makes it nearly impossible to dodge fast abilities like Diana's Q so you have to be really careful how and where you use them if Diana's Q isn't on cd.

Which is one of the reasons she's not that great against ganks pre 6. Though saying it stays at one point until lvl 8 is a bit of a stretch. She tends to back one to three times before lvl 8, in part because she has TP, and usually buys some extra AP while doing so. She might also have scaling AP runes. It might not be "substantial AP" but it still matters, especially when repeated several times over the course of laning.

You're really bad at understanding what I write... MR/lvl alone doesn't make someone tanky, and sure as hell doesn't make someone a tank. But particularly when combined with hp or effective hp (such as her shield...), it can contribute a lot towards making someone tank_y_. She often buys abyssal scepter first when her lane opponent is a mage, further increasing this effect.

I never complained about her outplaying anyone. Morg's only hitbox shenanigans is the width of her Q and ever since the update to her spell textures it's not that far off. Still, I don't laugh at people who complain that they got hit by it when it clearly didn't hit them visually.

Morg is actually awful at killing people, but that's not Morg's job. If someone complained Morg is too good at catching/ccing people their complaint would at least make sense, though considering the speed of her Q (and the fact that it isn't passthrough) and the long channel time of her R, I'd be inclined to disagree. People regularly complain about the root duration on Morg's Q, and yeah, at max ranks it is long. Without that duration her W damage would be almost a non factor 1v1 and setting up her own R stuns would almost never happen. However, her long Q root can be pretty oppressive when she has allies to follow up, which is a big part of why Morg support (who maxes Q first usually) is a thing.

I'm gonna assume "really" is supposed to say "really fed." The problem is that Morg doesn't survive Diana's burst, despite black shield. So the R stun never happens. The Q root isn't long enough early on because as mid Morg you're maxing W first. Morg's W does increased damage based on missing hp. Morg can't really poke Diana down before hand without running oom using W or landing Qs Diana should never be hit by. Plus Diana's shield in trades and while diving keep her hp high for longer than most.

Later on, Morg's Q will go up in ranks and she gets decent AP so her burst damage from Q + R is a lot higher, making her W even more effective, but at lvl 6 none of this is the case. Diana's shield also prevents damage, reducing Morgana's healing from her spell vamp passive, reducing her effective hp a little. So Diana combos Morg, Morg's R never does its secondary damage or stun, and Diana casually walks away with ease...

When did I ever say I wanted her nerfed in this thread? I don't want Diana straight up nerfed, I want her power shifted some. I want her to have some counterplay post 6 besides "throw cc at her and pray." I want her to not be quite so damn snowbally due to scaling both offensively and defensively in large amounts, and both from the same stat (like Riven, who is a problem for the same reason). I want her weaknesses to exist without having to out number her.

Early on no, but by the time most people get those items Diana often has some AP as well. Her sustained damage due to her passive and low cds means can still get the kills in a lot of cases. The champs that can rush Maw vs her can be a bit of a problem sure, but she can roam well, especially with TP, and find kills elsewhere easily. Still, maw and sterak's are effective against her and this season have hurt her win rate. And yet her win rate is still fine... What does that tell you about how good she is?

She is not as tank as a diver. Get that through your head. Even with shield health plus abyssal and hourglass she us bit as durable as any tank. Stop lying please. Or exaggerating. Pretty sure maw and streaks hurt all mages it isn't built literally every game. Also there's other people diving the add hopefully so I mean as long as your team compensates you should be fine

She isn't going to have the shield strength to tank tower shots for quite some time. If you're afraid of your ur lead meaning nothing you can run TP. She has counter play you just won't use it. Also one second of doing nothing is a lot during a dive so that excuse is really invalid. She has not had her numbers touched in years and there's a reason for that

Also shields don't stop the damage from counting for life steal/ spell vamp. That's based off of damage only not whether they actually lose health lol

Again I'm pointing out how tower diving her should not work. Her shield CD is still around 9 at Max rank you really should just go play her so you're u can see how wrong you are.

CosnirakApr 18, 20161 votes

I'm done with this discussion. You're clearly not understanding any points I'm making and you refuse to accept that her shield is a big deal. There's no point in trying to talk about it further.

Critmaster GarenApr 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

We feel she's more diver than assassin overall, though she's pretty close to the border between the two. Her shield, passive rewarding repeated auto attacking and need to stay in a fight once she goes in push her towards diver overall (assassins generally have avoidance instead of durability, patterns without ongoing AA dependence and ways out of a fight).

Having said that I could see Diana getting numbers adjustments at the least as part of an assassin or diver update.

diana really seems like primary assassin, secondary fighter. she jumps in and bursts someone down.

honestly, what does "diver" even mean? this term could apply to a variety of champions from fighters like Olaf, shyvana, vi and jax (already very different in how theyre diving). to certain assassins like diana, akali, rengar or diving tanks like malphite.

im not sure its a good term to work with.

i also think yi is wrongly labled as an assassin. even adc yi should be primary labled as a fighter and secondary assassin at best. the only time hes really bursty, is with a full crit build. and thats not different from the burst of marksmen.

xReverieFeb 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

We feel she's more diver than assassin overall, though she's pretty close to the border between the two. Her shield, passive rewarding repeated auto attacking and need to stay in a fight once she goes in push her towards diver overall (assassins generally have avoidance instead of durability, patterns without ongoing AA dependence and ways out of a fight).

Having said that I could see Diana getting numbers adjustments at the least as part of an assassin or diver update.

Hi Meddler, since this was posted Diana has had a small number change to her E moonfall ability in 6.17, increasing the displacement radius. Are their any other changes planned soon? I'd like to see some changes to her early game as her laning phase is pretty average until lvl 6, and she falls off past mid game (reduce mana costs). She's been lagging behind other champions for quite a while too (according to champion.gg).

Is she considered to an opportunistic rework, since a diver class rework will happen at a minimum at the end of the year?

Have a few ideas for her kit too if she were to get a rework: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/h5u1o3qx-diver-rework-diana