It sounds like some people want more simple champions, but aren't realizing that the more simple they make a champion, the more reliant it'll be on raw stats instead of skill expression.
It's way less fun to get beat down just because a Jax hit 6 than to get legitimately outplayed by an Akali.
What we need is for the simpler champions to be given skill-expressive mechanics, not for new champions to be stat-checks.
xDogMeatx3 votesim sorry when i hear outplay i hear 1 billion dashes/gapclosers with also crazy stealth "mechanics" (no offense to you though or your post) its like this simple champions give out statchecks but lose flexibility due to their fighting condition are set mostly in stone now.... if we add in a irelia or yasuo or riven their fighting conditions are more skewed due to the difficulty in them therefore has more flexibility or "outplay" potential that makes the enemy wonder "what the hell could i have done" or "geez its a good thing you all have cooldowns at URF levels". irelia is a different case however her power revolves on her casts then using auto attacks to take advantage of her boost at 5 stacks she has a block button W now balanced now to physical damage she is definitely more fair now considering her release VS now (although i miss her disarm i dont use her it just gets me).
The Ecdysiast1 votesBut often times, the only simple champions that are viable are those whose kits are so simple that they can build anything to overcome any difference mechanics might make.
And they beat other simple champions who aren't as good against the high-mechanic champs, too.
xDogMeatx1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dautUY18,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-06-08T09:19:46.117+0000)
But often times, the only simple champions that are viable are those whose kits are so simple that they can build anything to overcome any difference mechanics might make.
And they beat other simple champions who aren't as good against the high-mechanic champs, too.
name some examples to help elaborate please.
The Ecdysiast1 votesname some examples to help elaborate please.
The two most prominent examples are in the title. Look up any Udyr or Jax guide from any past season, and you'll get what I mean. This season, on-hit was so strong it almost doesn't matter, but when that changes they can still fall back on building whatever they want.
And the second part, what I mean is that they have the tools to beat other champions who are just as simple mechanically. So making more champions that simple would mean either just giving them those same tools so they become another case of players with poor mechanics being able to get by on overloaded base stats and scaling, or they just introduce a champion that's worse than existing simple champions to start.
xDogMeatx1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dautUY18,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-08T20:56:24.678+0000)
The two most prominent examples are in the title. Look up any Udyr or Jax guide from any past season, and you'll get what I mean. This season, on-hit was so strong it almost doesn't matter, but when that changes they can still fall back on building whatever they want.
And the second part, what I mean is that they have the tools to beat other champions who are just as simple mechanically. So making more champions that simple would mean either just giving them those same tools so they become another case of players with poor mechanics being able to get by on overloaded base stats and scaling, or they just introduce a champion that's worse than existing simple champions to start.
I get what your saying. If a simple champ has overloaded damage vs a champ who has poor stats but has great abilities yet loses due to equal farm then why play that champ if simple beats them. In other words the game rewards braindeadness over skill? If I'm summed it up correctly?
The Ecdysiast1 votesNo, no, what I'm saying is that it's a problem when that happens.
xDogMeatx1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dautUY18,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-09T00:18:57.798+0000)
No, no, what I'm saying is that it's a problem when that happens.
I agree it is a problem simplicity should reflect their stats also.
Sodeb Lacudomite3 votesWhy is it always about "1v1 outplay"? Can't we just enjoy league being a strategy game, can't we play the macro game, the team game?
These days I have been playing Ziggs, and of course enemy team picks Ahri or Leblanc or Zed or Yasuo or Kassadin with ignite electrocute, then they try to kill me. But meanwhile I focus on farming and roaming. And then they are frustrated like "omg I won lane but lost game, report my team".
The goal in this game is to take the enemy nexus. Kills help... but objectives (drakes, rift herald, baron, towers, inhib, or even farming waves and pressuring) helps more.
I don't think we need more Jax/Udyr for stat check or more Akali for fancy 1v1. I think we need more macro. More utility champ for strategy. More tankiness to add depth to teamfights.
xDogMeatx1 votes[{quoted}](name=Ir Sun,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dautUY18,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-06-08T08:37:23.852+0000)
Why is it always about "1v1 outplay"? Can't we just enjoy league being a strategy game, can't we play the macro game, the team game?
These days I have been playing Ziggs, and of course enemy team picks Ahri or Leblanc or Zed or Yasuo or Kassadin with ignite electrocute, then they try to kill me. But meanwhile I focus on farming and roaming. And then they are frustrated like "omg I won lane but lost game, report my team".
The goal in this game is to take the enemy nexus. Kills help... but objectives (drakes, rift herald, baron, towers, inhib, or even farming waves and pressuring) helps more.
I don't think we need more Jax/Udyr for stat check or more Akali for fancy 1v1. I think we need more macro. More utility champ for strategy. More tankiness to add depth to teamfights.
people like their own ego boosting plus it allows easier dueling potential if a target is already in front of you. btw your talking about karthus/shen/taliah are MACRO champs? while fiora/mordekaiser (new)/jax are micro. whats warwick considered though micro or macro?
Sodeb Lacudomite1 votesYou noticed that I used to main ww? Bard ulti or Ryze ulti are good macro skill examples.
Old Warwick used to be both, he has his team AS boost which allowed to more dps for objectives taking (drakes/baron or tower or teamfight). I thought that was simple and cool. But it lacked "mechanics" according to Riot.
New Warwick, honestly I don't know... I kept playing him on-hit as an old ww main, since q still proc on-hit, as well as R (3 times), and it scales well with his passive AS boost (for his passive, and more on-hit). However, even if you build bloodrazor + titanic into full tank, you get blown up instantly in teamfight unless you play backline and use your E very wisely. People who ask Ww to engage in teamfight don't realise R is channeled and will be interrupted by almost anything.
I think you can play any champ macro or micro, ww is a good example, do you focus on playing battleroyal ww (running around the map trying to kill champ h24) or do you focus on playing macro ww (setting up vision, taking objectives).
I agree all that is quite subjective though and we all have our opinion and we can discuss =)
xDogMeatx1 votes[{quoted}](name=Ir Sun,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dautUY18,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-06-08T08:57:12.357+0000)
You noticed that I used to main ww? Bard ulti or Ryze ulti are good macro skill examples.
Old Warwick used to be both, he has his team AS boost which allowed to more dps for objectives taking (drakes/baron or tower or teamfight). I thought that was simple and cool. But it lacked "mechanics" according to Riot.
New Warwick, honestly I don't know... I kept playing him on-hit as an old ww main, since q still proc on-hit, as well as R (3 times), and it scales well with his passive AS boost (for his passive, and more on-hit). However, even if you build bloodrazor + titanic into full tank, you get blown up instantly in teamfight unless you play backline and use your E very wisely. People who ask Ww to engage in teamfight don't realise R is channeled and will be interrupted by almost anything.
I think you can play any champ macro or micro, ww is a good example, do you focus on playing battleroyal ww (running around the map trying to kill champ h24) or do you focus on playing macro ww (setting up vision, taking objectives).
I agree all that is quite subjective though and we all have our opinion and we can discuss =)
battle royal only on norms mode i wanna see them rage :D
The Ecdysiast1 votesOkay, but the argument is in regards to damage dealers. When the next tank comes out, we can have the discussion you wanna have.
PositiveMental411 votesWym you have 5 losses ina row with ziggs lul
Sodeb Lacudomite1 votesahaha yeah I suck! RIP
SuperTopLFBottom2 votesI wanted to comment but then i read "statcheck" multiple times and realized it is not worth the effort.
The Ecdysiast1 votesI wanted to comment but then i read "statcheck" multiple times and realized it is not worth the effort.
So instead you took the time to leave a comment that adds nothing to the discussion, because you prefer easy champions.
I take it you're one of those people who doesn't realize that more difficult champions still have to have all the same map awareness easier champions do.
hhaavviikk1 votes''simple''
[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dautUY18,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-06-08T08:11:14.764+0000)
It sounds like some people want more simple champions, but aren't realizing that the more simple they make a champion, the more reliant it'll be on raw stats instead of skill expression.
It's way less fun to get beat down just because a Jax hit 6 than to get legitimately outplayed by an Akali.
What we need is for the simpler champions to be given skill-expressive mechanics, not for new champions to be stat-checks.
True which is why ADC's are so hated, when they're strong and they simply outstat you they right click you and you die with 0 skill expression
The Ecdysiast1 votesIs there more to say or are you basically just repeating my post? I said Udyr and Jax because they're auto-attackers, too.
Smurfraka1 votesPeople are going to take issue with Akali here, a lot of people don't like her. I think champs can be fun/fair without being as complex as her anyway though.For example, Ahri is far from "complex". She's simple, but she's also fair and not a statcheck like Jax. There's opportunity for her to mess up and misplay - giving her meaningful counterplay. Champs can be simple and easily understandable without being brainless statchecks.
i.e 
. Their kits are conceptually simple, but you wouldn't see anyone calling Ezreal no-skill or a statcheck.
I'll defend Udyr a bit, although his design isn't great. Udyr's skill expression is that he has to gapclose to you, and more importantly, the counterplay is his short range and ability to be kited.
Jax though is the absolute definition of a statcheck, he just jumps on you and facerolls. More importantly, he doesn't have good counterplay because his Q allows him to shove his stats in your face whenever. Tryndamere is the same way and both need fundamental changes. People who want more champs like them are mostly bad players who want a crutch.
tl;dr: There's good simple, easy to understand: ( ) and bad simple, boring statchecks: (
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Well if you are ok with not being able to play your champ bcs some god player in challanger can still solo carry games with them so they are nerfed, then sure, add more champs with extreme skill cellings and overloaded kits.
The Ecdysiast1 votesWell if you are ok with not being able to play your champ bcs some god player in challanger can still solo carry games with them so they are nerfed, then sure, add more champs with extreme skill cellings and overloaded kits.
What I'm asking is that "my" champ be given just as much skill expression, even if it changes them on a fundamental level. It's way worse when an easy champ is so strong that they can't get outplayed.
