Can we give Titanic Hydra some of its AD back

FalconPawwwwnch·May 3, 2016·14 votes·1,515 views

It's 77% efficient right now

Legit nobody buys this and wins

33 Comments

EcchiOtakuTMMay 3, 20167 votes

What they should have done is lower the hp and raise the ratio imo so you'd have to invest into more hp to get use out of it instead of harming it's AD.

RalanrMay 3, 20168 votes

Or just increase the HP to damage ratio when they nerfed the AD. I'm not sure why they didn't do that.

EcchiOtakuTMMay 3, 20161 votes

You know what you're legit and correct, I just wasn't thinking at the time.

That would really have non-tanks/bruisers use it less since they don't itemize into HP that much.

RalanrMay 3, 20161 votes

Exactly.

Hinagiku33May 3, 20161 votes

Because that would have not solved anything.

The issue was that Akali MasterYi Fiora Riven and other melee champs that are supposed to build full damage to be successful were able to build item 3748 and full tank and do massive amounts of damage.

item 3068 : offers tons of HP and armor item 3742 : offers tons of HP and armor item 3025 : offers nice armor and a good Sheen proc item 3065 : offers tons of HP and MR item 3102 : Offers tons of HP and MR

Titanic Hydra was waaaay too powerful and enabled even glass cannon that didn't work going tanky before to do tons of damage while having about 4,000 health and 200 of both Armor and MR. The health scaling (on each hit plus the active) meant that Titanic Hydra could be the only damage item in your kit and you'd do enough damage to kill anything as long as you could survive a bit in a fight...in a fashion that also enabled you to build pure tank to become nigh-unkillable while boosting the damage Hydra did.

The issue was that Titanic Hydra needed a hard nerf.

Increasing the health scaling to compensate the AD loss would have been a net-neutral change at best or a dangerous buff at worst. That's why Riot didn't do that.

charcharmunroMay 3, 20165 votes

It really should just have a higher HP-to-damage ratio. It's meant to be for bulky AA-heavy champions like Olaf, Trundle, Darius to a degree, maybe Vi.

Hinagiku33May 3, 20161 votes

No...no it should not.

Unless you want to see this every game again:

Fiora : item 3748 item 3068 item 3083 item 3065 item 3143 item 3111

charcharmunroMay 3, 20162 votes

Think about it like this. Fiora with that build only has 35 bonus AD and is more about on-hit. That is nowhere near as dumb as old tank Fiora was.

Hinagiku33May 5, 20161 votes

I'm dead serious here, I tried Titanic Hydra Fiora back in the days of her tank builds and the splash damage alone was completely insane. Increasing the health-to-damage ratio will just let her melt entire teams while building full tank. Sure it'll take some time for her to do it, but her damage increases by building health - which is very often tied to high amounts of Armor/MR - which makes her tanky enough to live long enough to do it.

I would much rather cut the health-to-damage of the splash and just give Titanic Hydra a little more AD.

SohleksMay 3, 20162 votes

Their ideal for this item currently isn't very well supported. Attack rate fighter is a fantasy reserved only for the better sated devourer junglers. Without that item attack speed and fighters don't play very well together with today's itemization.

Moving sated to the fully stacked rageblade and making that 3.7k gold cost will probably keep it just as impractical, perhaps even more so.

Riot took a glance at titanic and ravenous hydras and saw titanic universally more useful. Titanic had a lot going for it; higher initial burst on the active, greater sustained damage in sated builds, more durability particularly early/mid game before lifesteal and damage can overdo 1k gold worth of hp... Riot knocked off the AD to try to differentiate them. But I think titanic hyrdra still tries to overshadow ravenous in too many ways. Maybe ravenous should steal one of titanic's perks (either burst or on hit dmg), and we can buff titanic a bit back into "normalcy." (probably on-hit; overloading ravenous with too much up front damage would probably feel shallow)

EndlessSorcererMay 3, 20161 votes

Master Yi and Shyvana (among many others) are doing quite well with it.

LankPantsMay 3, 20163 votes

Until next patch where they remove devourer and both these champs fall completely off the map.

EndlessSorcererMay 3, 20162 votes

Well yeah, but they have been using Titanic Hydra quite well until now.

Karma DeifiedMay 3, 20162 votes

Only because hitting multiple times in a few seconds really changes the value of an on-hit effect.

The DeckownerMay 3, 20161 votes

bloodrazor provides a earlier power spike and kills tanks very easily. brusier yi and shyvana will come back again.

LankPantsMay 3, 20161 votes

Blood Razor deals 3% HP, this means it's strictly weaker than a stacked devourer until an enemy has 3000 HP, since devourer can be viewed as a minimum of 90 damage on hit, since every other attack hits twice. After 3000 HP it's probably still weaker than Devourer on Shyv and Yi due to their inherent on hits.

Shyv and Yi are both dead past Bronze after this patch, Bloodrazor is far weaker on them than Devourer, there's not even really an argument about that.

The DeckownerMay 3, 20161 votes

devourer is simply moved to rageblade, which has even higher number than before and phantom hit. new rageblade was tested on pbe and lots of high elo players consider this item busted. Farming for 20minutes to get sated+rageblade is nothing different than farming 20 minutes to get bloodrazor+new rageblade.

LankPantsMay 3, 20161 votes

Farming for 20minutes to get sated+rageblade is nothing different than farming 20 minutes to get bloodrazor+new rageblade.

Yes it is, because Shyvana and Yi can't go Sated+Rageblade. Going Sated Ragblade on either is stupid, BotRK is better than Rageblade when you lack AP ratios anyway and generally you can't afford to go double offensive item, especially on Shyvana.

You also pay 800 gold and trade the reliable Devourer effect for a less reliable one with 6 attacks to stack and you lose the Rageblade effect for a far less powerful on-hit on Bloodrazor. You also just lose the 60 on-hit damage from old Devourer, that's completely lost on the Rageblade.

New Rageblade/Bloodrazor is way weaker in almost ever case when compared to old Rageblade/Devourer. The only case where it's more powerful is on a ranged champion.

The DeckownerMay 3, 20161 votes

well i guess we gotta test it out

LilxPaprikaMay 3, 20161 votes

Ravenous and titanic are pretty much equal except for perhaps the auto reset and on hit is considered more valuable than the 50% aoe lifesteal. auto reset should not be worth much though since you want AS anyways. though handy if exhausted. if it does get a buff it wouldn't be much. posted this http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/XH1fPJxg-titanic-hydra-is-only-78cost-effective-wo-passive

LankPantsMay 3, 20161 votes

You realise that both Rav and Titanic auto reset? In fact Ravenous is better at this since it will break certain animations like Renekton's W while Titanic won't.

LilxPaprikaMay 3, 20161 votes

In that case it really needs a lovetap. I don't know what riot has settled on in terms of risk reward values. A tankier item should offer slightly less overall though 20% is definitely too much at higher elo especially where margin of error is smaller.

DELDE115May 3, 20161 votes

Are you kidding me? Titanic hydra is too strong to recieve a buff. No to mention, its the item that cause the horrible tank meta we are now playing at.

The DeckownerMay 3, 20161 votes

titanic hydra is still steong, the hp scaling aoe dmg provides tones of artificial power. laning against a tank with titanic hydra is flat out dumb because any tank can have anivia/velkoz level of pushing/waveclearing power with this item. it also makes every tank protentially a split pusher, causing a meta where "every tank will split push, the team with trundle wins".

ErockandrollMay 3, 20161 votes

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titanic hydra is still steong, the hp scaling aoe dmg provides tones of artificial power. laning against a tank with titanic hydra is flat out dumb because any tank can have anivia/velkoz level of pushing/waveclearing power with this item. it also makes every tank protentially a split pusher, causing a meta where "every tank will split push, the team with trundle wins".

It's really more of a Health scaling Juggernaut Item. IF you want Wave clear on a Tank, you buy Sunfire. And if you want split push on a tank, you bought portal.

The DeckownerMay 3, 20161 votes

except all of the juggernaut items are abusable by other champions due to the tank stat and offensive stat it provides.

steraks gage is build on adc assassins. dead man's plate is built on literaly everyone titanic hydra is good for majority of the aa tanks and abusable by assassins/devourer jg boot of swiftness(i believe was buffed during juggernaut update) is used on everybody sunfire/IBG combo is cancerous

the fact is any item that gives spammable artificial power/provide powerful offensive and defensive abilities at once will cause issues

BeldairMay 3, 20161 votes

Titanic Hydra is built for tankinous

Ravenous Hydra is for the damage.

Kitten of EvilMay 3, 20161 votes

It's more efficient than that--don't forget that it also gives every attack 5+1% max HP. It's at least 91% efficient (assuming level 1 Anivia's base HP, although Anivia can't use it) and almost always more efficient than that.

DorkunedAurasMay 3, 20161 votes

but where is that 14% coming from? Are you treating the on-hit as just AD, or as an on-hit?

Kitten of EvilMay 3, 20161 votes

Oh, I'm not actually sure where it's coming from, since on the Wiki http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Titanic_Hydra

Titanic Hydra is 92.86% gold efficient without its passive and active.

and

Titanic Hydra is at least 96.2% gold efficient with its passive when bought on a level 1 Anivia and 110.11% gold efficient with its passive when bought on a level 18 Alistar.

I'm not sure why the Wiki says 93% while this and the other post say 78%. I wonder if they're valuing a particular stat differently?

I assume it treats it as added AD, which while it's true does not scale onto abilities, also has the benefit of being useful in an AOE.

DorkunedAurasMay 3, 20161 votes

I just don't think the AoE is comparable to AD, as some champs get HUGE benefit from AD on their abilities, while some just get AD so their autos are better. AD caster vs Auto attacker essentially

ForgiveColourMay 3, 20161 votes

Yeah because we need titanic elo back in the game for sure

QuephaMay 3, 20161 votes

It's 77% efficient before counting the passive and active And the active is worth a bare minimum of 14.5 on-hit damage, functionally equivalent to about 500 gold's worth of AD, bringing it up to 92% gold efficiency.

And that really is the BARE MINIMUM, as in it's on a level 1 Katarina who built zero additional health.

If tanks aren't building Titanic Hydra, that's because Sunfire is just too stupidly efficient right now because Titanic Hydra is clearly strong enough as an item.