Because building armor pen against a team comp that looks like this https://i.gyazo.com/f8f16e680dfb4eb2ed98c3383332a3d4.png this https://i.gyazo.com/869e637914db4c5d2abc97a99ce8da01.png this https://i.gyazo.com/96d1e6467c72a0c8e913a44004577e65.png or this https://i.gyazo.com/51fb3ade4ec11bd87137408e52dd8bf7.png is extremely sub-optimal.
Why would you go for 
instead of 
when no champion has more than 1 armor item, if any at all?
D357R0Y3R15 votesI mean doesn't this just mean that armor is garbage and nobody builds it anymore? Except Zhonya, and IBG on ezreal (and ofc tabis) nobody builds armor Hell this Challenger amumu went full AP?
bruiser in the past used to have 200 armor or more today they have over 3k hp with triforce/sterak/titanic, and nobody except tanks cares about armor
in the past, (from season 2 to season 7 nearly) armor pen was CORE on adc, you couldn't build them without it
to me, it just shows that there is a problem
Metal Janna1 votesI mean doesn't this just mean that armor is garbage and nobody builds it anymore? Except Zhonya, and IBG on ezreal (and ofc tabis) nobody builds armor Hell this Challenger amumu went full AP?
Or it just means that everyone has too much armor baked into their kit and nobody bothers to build it.
Marshbouy4 votesNo, not necessarily. It means that armor is bad in soloQ because you are trading your own agency for that of your teammates. It's a lot easier to impact a game when you're able to one shot an opponent rather than rely on your ally killing an opponent. It's always been this way. People have been recommending grenade Amumu since season 6.
Sire Hippington3 votesJust that you see similar things in proplay. Gragas for example is nearly always built AP and rarly tank, cause it all comes down to have as much impac with your initiation as possible.
Hayaishi215 votesI mean doesn't this just mean that armor is garbage and nobody builds it anymore? Except Zhonya, and IBG on ezreal (and ofc tabis) nobody builds armor Hell this Challenger amumu went full AP?
bruiser in the past used to have 200 armor or more today they have over 3k hp with triforce/sterak/titanic, and nobody except tanks cares about armor
in the past, (from season 2 to season 7 nearly) armor pen was CORE on adc, you couldn't build them without it
to me, it just shows that there is a problem
The problem is bruisers don't even build tank items anymore. They get their tankiness from steraks/cleaver/death's dance etc.
LTK KoRo1 votesthat's not a problem. We had a problem back in season 3 and behind when bruisers and tanks shared same items, which made a lot of balance problems.
Thefrostyviking2 votesWhy are you so obscenely stuck on armor pen when building it was just a consequence of your opponents getting armor?
Armor pen is useless if those who are supposed to use it are not played, and those are only a few tanks who scale of armor, for the rest its not worth it.
100 armor? 50%? Reduction? Yeah doesnt matter when 3-4 people are hitting the guy and he just dies instantly because he is a fake tank who lacks proper defensive steroids.
Even if he is a tank it doesnt matter if the team has a melee like say Darius who is running black cleaver or maybe something like lee sin/aatrox doing it when the tank is behind. ..-..
So to put it simply, if marksmen were so stuck in their ways that they built armor pen even when there is a severe lack of armor in play then that would indicate a problem, a problem with the marksmen´s brains.
D357R0Y3R2 votesWhy are you so obscenely stuck on armor pen when building it was just a consequence of your opponents getting armor?
read what I said
I just wrote what you wrote, armor pen is not built because armor is garbage, because tankiness is garbage
and I want armor to be buffed
Thefrostyviking1 votesI never wrote that it was garbage, i wrote "not worth it".
For many melee the issue is that they want Ad and whatever helps them get more durable so they dont explode from ambient damage, this means items with multiple stats like say 
or alternative options like 
are just great.
They boost your damage and your durability, both at once, sometimes even your sustain and other stuff too.
That´s something a 
doesnt, it just flat out reduces the effect a crit marksman has on you but doing so also means you hit the marksman&his team less hard because you didnt get that hybrid item, so building as much hybrid stuff as possible first is usually the best.
But then there is the noteworthy fact that many melee do actually get some armor, although usually very late in their build, like Darius at his 4 to 6 item depending on boots type and need.
Which you wont see because games frequently end at 2-3 items.
Hells in your own post there were several matches in which the marksmen´s opponents had just barely finished their core builds and were looking into armor when they lost, i distinctly recall seeing both an Aatrox and a Olaf running ninja tabi+chain vest in their builds.
Clearly both of them were just too behind to get the armor but they were actually getting it.
Packun Flower10 votesWhy did you make a thread just to reply to another thread?
Marshbouy18 votesBecause there's so many comments on that thread that any response will be buried
KFCeytron4 votesBecause there's so many comments on that thread that any response will be buried
That may be your reason, but it doesn't constitute a justification.
The original thread has a reply near the top of the second page that makes the same point you're making here and yet was posted ten hours prior:
Just quickly eyeballing those matches, 90% of them have 0 tanks, and the ones that do have tanks, they stack health like warmog with maybe 1 armor item.
In the few games where they did face tanks (like i see one example of
vs
and
) they dealt almost the least amount of damage in their team (twitch also had
).
If 80% of your opposition builds almost 0 armor items, investing an item slot and so much gold into stats that wont maximize your damage output will be kind of pointless, so going for full crit to eliminate RNG or extra lifesteal/GA would be more beneficial in those cases.
AGAIN! look at those matches, almost all of them are 2 teams full of squishies or at the very least health stackers with very few armor items.
This thread is redundant and spammy.
Pika Fox2 votesThat may be your reason, but it doesn't constitute a justification.
The original thread has a reply near the top of the second page that makes the same point you're making here and yet was posted ten hours prior:
This thread is redundant and spammy.
Clearly the solution is to then delete the other thread spreading false information and leave this one.
Flawless Fetus3 votesYup. I considered it as well adcs aren't building armor because tanks don't exist. If the enemy team has a rammus and a malphite, I'll bet you my meat some armpen is getting built.
taleofsonata5 votes[{quoted}](name=Packun Flower,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dIru9Eaw,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-07-09T03:24:27.983+0000)
Why did you make a thread just to reply to another thread?
To raise awareness?
Ackelope7 votesrip on that post title though
Abibyama II3 votesLike OP said, It's about agency
Nobody wants to play tank or build tank because that would mean they would have to rely on teammates which is something nobody wants to do and would rather be the main character of a battle shounen.
Modl Ryden l1 votesThere has been a bunch of statistics revolving around armor pen of when it becomes an optimal solution vs armor. Typically talking a bout Last Whisper items. Generally around 180 armor then it's worth considering.
But once you find out you don't really need to basic attack the tank then there is zero reason to buy armor pen. Because you should always be prioritizing armorless champs.
Yets42406 votesI have done the maths in every thread this has come up in, you are VASTLY overestimating how much armor is required.
In fact, it s cost effective at 88 armor. that's it. 46% of all champions have more base armor than that.
Literally every single champion with so much as a 
has MORE than that much armor.
I can copy and paste the maths if you would like, or you can find an entire thread on it here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/6Vrse1uE-the-maths-behind-armor-penetration-and-why-you-should-build-an-ldr-if-they-have-a-single-tank?comment=000000020000
Marshbouy8 votescost effective =! best item to build at that time of the game
many completed items are above 100% gold efficient and those that aren't usually have pretty OP passives. A lot of times those passives give much better utility or general power than armor pen does (depending on the stage of the game).
Eedat4 votesWhew caught him before he could hijack this one too. I gotchu
Thefrostyviking1 votesDo tell me though, do you think a guy with 150 armor and ...say 2300 health can survive more than 2-3 seconds while under focused fire from more than 2 damage carries?
Even if those do not have penetration?.......To be the answer as i see it is never yes.
The goal is to wipe the enemy team and survive, kill that enemy tank 2-3 seconds faster is not worth it if it means you either die in the process or miss the chance to kill his team.
Modl Ryden l1 votesI have done the maths in every thread this has come up in, you are VASTLY overestimating how much armor is required.
In fact, it s cost effective at 88 armor. that's it. 46% of all champions have more base armor than that.
Literally every single champion with so much as a
I can copy and paste the maths if you would like, or you can find an entire thread on it here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/6Vrse1uE-the-maths-behind-armor-penetration-and-why-you-should-build-an-ldr-if-they-have-a-single-tank?comment=000000020000
Okay well my second point still stands. When you realize as a marksmen you don't need to focus the player that's mitigating your damage, why would you? Obviously your range allows you to hit higher priority targets that aren't building armor.
Besides cost efficiency is not even part of it, it's slot efficiency. If Last Whisper items allow you to get rid of the tank in front of you then buy it. But if you can handle having a tank stick to you then keep investing into high damage items to get rid of the enemy carries. So what if you get armor pen, it doesn't mean that armor is ignored outright, even if you are attack the tank as a marksmen you're sinking damage into someone who is built to take damage. If anything you're doing the tank the favor for having them properly play their role. Whereas the damage done to a tank could have been enough to kill the support or the other marksmen. You only buy armor pen as a marksmen if you HAVE to fight front to back, tanks first then back line. Other then that, don't waster basic attacks on a champ whose role IS to soak damage ie make your damage suck into them completely worthless for you.
Thefrostyviking1 votesThe guy who made that thread is just circlejerking hard as hell.
"But marksmen not needing armor pen muh OP"
He utterly refused to respond to multiple comments asking why one should get armor pen when the enemy side doesnt even have a proper tank building armor.'
Marshbouy1 votessuch is tradition
wolvius1 votesArmour pen may not be optimal against squishies but the problem is its nearly optional to use it against tanks, just continuing to build damage nearly has the same effect due to AA Speed x Ad items being an exponential increase in damage compared to the linear increase of buying armor.
Also as mentioned by someone already is efficient at at;90 armour, that is efficient against a level 18 with no extra armour from runes or items.
Looking at that first match with the two aftershocks and 2 healing ( aatrox, karma) a 
would have been worth it your going to have to buy 
anyway for the grievous wounds to kill that draintank. Your going to have to worry about slot efficiency eventually.
chipndip11 votesPeople will never admit it: No one wants to play around tanks in solo queue for tank effective to matter to begin with.
Are top lane tanks in a bad spot? Yes, but that doesn't mean that if they weren't in a bad spot, people would play around tank strengths properly, anyway. Too many people complain about dying too fast while building full tank. I'm sorry, but if the game's not a stomp and you're not 1v5'ing, you're not dying THAT fast as a tank.
So now that people are complaining about people not "needing" pen to deal with tanks. Who the hell plays tanks to care about pen stats not being built? People complain about all AD comps being "more viable than ever", but who's playing tanks when one shows up? Solo queue is a bastardization of what League really is, so of course people can't appreciate tanks in that type of environment.
