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Why is Illaoi intentionally given antisynergy with multiple keystones?

Moody P··8 votes·3,869 views

During the Dark Harvest reworks Riot deliberately changed the way Illaoi worked with with it. First, it stacked and reset off of spirits, allowing her to get a lot of damage (too strong, obviously) and then it would reset but not stack. Now, it stacks, but doesn't reset, which means that Illaoi loses a ton of damage if she ever does more damage to spirit than the champion in a fight, and the rune is now worthless. Just making it not interact with the spirit is too much to ask for.

Illaoi's wall tentacles do not count AT ALL when she is stacking hits for Phase Rush and Conqueror. These two runes are unreasonably hindered on Illaoi for no good reason; Phase Rush is already hindered by being on the shittiest tree of the 5. Conqueror takes so long for Illaoi to proc that late game you'll probably die before you get it. All in exchange for... Letting it stack on the spirit. Really? I don't need it to stack on spirits. I need it to come up ASAP when I'm being collapsed on.

Riot, can you please change the way Illaoi interacts with these runes? I hate playing with Klepto.

37 Comments

Vlada Cut7 votes

Conqueror doesn't have capped healing for AOE. Nobody wants to see Illaoi getting a pentakill with Conqueror and Death's Dance rush and be in meta. NOBODY. That's like Conqueror Katarina's healing multiplied by kazillion.

[sg-ahri-3]

Moody P4 votes

There's literally nothing wrong with Illaoi being meta when she's one of the fairest champions in the game.

The thigh guy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dGxWk9GO,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-05T12:38:33.703+0000)

There's literally nothing wrong with Illaoi being meta when she's one of the fairest champions in the game.

“Fair” nothing like being zoned for the entire lane, and not being able to be helped by jungle or mid. Oh and if she gets the smallest lead in level, gold or lane advantage gg.

Doge20201 votes

Yeah stat wise she is pretty damn powerful. But from a design perspective, she is very fair because she has very clear strengths and weaknesses that can easily be used to a player’s advantage. Like her ult, you can easily negate the effectiveness of her ult by simply walking away. Sure if you are right next to her than you are fucked but usually there is a way that you can get out with varying difficulty.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah stat wise she is pretty damn powerful. But from a design perspective, she is very fair because she has very clear strengths and weaknesses that can easily be used to a player’s advantage. Like her ult, you can easily negate the effectiveness of her ult by simply walking away. Sure if you are right next to her than you are fucked but usually there is a way that you can get out with varying difficulty.

Her issues arise when she wins 1v1s consistently due to bruiser items being so over stated, and she wins 2v1, 3v1 and with enough of a lead 4v1s because of her ult.

Doge20202 votes

I understand that issue perfectly lol. I have been on the receiving end of that treatment too many times to count. Nobody is the same after a failed gank/collapse on an illaoi, there will always be somebody with a wider asshole than before.

Vlada Cut3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dGxWk9GO,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-03-05T12:38:33.703+0000)

There's literally nothing wrong with Illaoi being meta when she's one of the fairest champions in the game.

Are you kidding me right now...

Silly Neeko7 votes

Lets see here....

Phase rush - Hitting an enemy champion with 3 attacks or separate abilities within 3 seconds grants 25 - 40% (based on level) Movement Speed and 75% Slow Resistance for 3 seconds.

Illaoi Wall Tentacles = not ability because it can not act on its own. It moves in conjunction with an ability. What it sounds like you are saying is you want to ulti, have phase rush proc, then go on your merry way. It does not work like that. They are literally just extentions of your abilities.

Dark Harvest - Are you not just happy enough that you can proc your dark harvest off of a champion clone that near literally is free damage to an enemy champion? It doesnt reset because technically nothing was killed..... it was echoed to the enemy champ, which doesnt make much sense right? Do you even get gold for killing it like other clones? Oh wait.... next you are going to ask for that right?

Conq for Illaoi can be stacked up pretty quickly as it is.... not as fast as some, but for sure pretty quick. The fact that you want her to get it for each tentacle that hits... (see phase rush commentary about tentacles)... is literally absurd. You want to be able to ulti and instantly get 5 stacks, which would then convert 10% damage to true damage, then heal you as well.... on top of missing health healing from tentacles, ontop of she usually gets ability healing from rune, ON TOP OF death dance which she normally builds.....

And you wonder why the runes work the way it does for her? And here I would think you would not be wanting Illaoi nerfed into the ground. She already can utilize all those runes better than some others (though most people will simply say that dark harvest is "shit" now)...

So yeah.... no. Let us not make those buffs.

Moody P2 votes

"She can already utilize those runes better than others"

No, she can't. They're all terrible on her specifically because of this complete and deliberate lack of synergy.

"So what you want is--"

Don't straw man me. Dark Harvest is trash because the damage transfer is muted by the echoes, meaning you have wasted your keystones CD and are now vulnerable to an all in until it comes up. Phase Rush is too slow to proc. Conqueror is too slow to proc. None of these runes work for Illaoi outside of low elo gameplay where people don't focus or kite her out.

1 stack per every round of slams is not remotely unacceptable. Illaoi is already middling to mediocre; actually having a good choice of Runes won't suddenly erase her massive amounts of counterplay

Silly Neeko3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dGxWk9GO,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-03-05T13:15:41.185+0000)

"She can already utilize those runes better than others"

No, she can't. They're all terrible on her specifically because of this complete and deliberate lack of synergy.

"So what you want is--"

Don't straw man me.

Explain what it is you are wanting from the "synergy" besides making Illaoi into an over used top laner yet again?

This is the problem with people. They want some love shown to their favorite champion even if it isnt needed or shouldnt be given in the way they are trying to say.... but if they do then they complain that they cant play their champion anymore.

Seriously. My question is, what is it that you are ACTUALLY wanting?

Moody P1 votes

Illaoi has never been over used or even remotely overtuned. She has only gotten buffed since her release and she's still a mid tier champion. Her pick rate even in a favorable meta doesn't exceed 6%. What are you saying when you call her over used?

Silly Neeko4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dGxWk9GO,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-05T13:28:57.707+0000)

Illaoi has never been over used or even remotely overtuned. She has only gotten buffed since her release and she's still a mid tier champion. What are you even talking about?

Avoiding the question because you know I am right and either you are trying to troll or you are just unwilling to accept it.

The question still stands of what is it that you are wanting if you are trying to say i am trying to "straw man" you.

Edit: as for why i brought up the "so what you are wanting is"

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dGxWk9GO,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-03-05T12:23:54.717+0000)

Really? I don't need it to stack on spirits. I need it to come up ASAP when I'm being collapsed on.

How is it going to stack any differently unless you can pretty much just ulti and get it? All of her ABILITIES and autos already stack it. One per ability and one per auto. What new thing are you wanting?

Its not straw manning if you literally posted the arguement for me to shut down.

Moody P2 votes

What do you want?

It's in the OP; the entire point of the post. I want to have runes actually work on Illaoi. She is the only champion with constructs that don't apply stacks.

All of her abilities stack it

Tentacles don't despite being an (easily avoidable) part of her kit. This is incorrect and should change.

Silly Neeko3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dGxWk9GO,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-05T13:47:34.949+0000)

It's in the OP; the entire point of the post. I want to have runes actually work on Illaoi. She is the only champion with constructs that don't apply stacks.

Tentacles don't despite being an (easily avoidable) part of her kit. This is incorrect and should change.

So you are just a troll and will not explain anything at all of what you are wanting to see as far as synergy even when given very clear examples of why the things act the way they do.

Im done with you. Good bye.

kingDeDeDarius2 votes

You never specified one stack for every round of smacks earlier. That's your bad.

Moody P2 votes

But thats how it works anyway. Simultaneous slams count as one hit for everything like Black cleaver stacks. I figured it would be implied

kingDeDeDarius2 votes

Have to agree here. She would be a monster if the OP's suggestions were implemented. Not just meta, but legitimately unfair

Butterwood2 votes

I also want Illaoi to be a completely broken and unstoppable force, +1

Butterwood2 votes

Also loving the term "antisynergy", there's no better way to prove your point than to make up words. It's fantastimundo

heroikc2 votes

Illaoi? Take a guess... Answer: she's too oppressive a lane bully.

Moody P2 votes

Hardly. Most people play poorly into her; she's at a disadvantage especially pre-6 against anything that isn't a tank. Nobody all ins when she misses key spells even in the rank I play; I can't imagine how she comes across in lower levels.

heroikc1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dGxWk9GO,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-03-05T15:59:13.818+0000)

Hardly. Most people play poorly into her; she's at a disadvantage especially pre-6 against anything that isn't a tank. Nobody all ins when she misses key spells even in the rank I play; I can't imagine how she comes across in lower levels.

Not really; lack of mobility and range in most tanks see them outsustained and poked out by illaoi, especially without people ganking for you. The soul grab also has ludicrously short cooldown, for some reason, so succeed one trial, and she forces it again. And no one all-ins because they're too scared of her abilities returning; she's not a marksman, but a juggernaut, she can't be bursted down with dedicated anti-tank burst.

Moody P1 votes

Illaoi is very easy to burst down.

heroikc1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dGxWk9GO,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-05T19:46:36.666+0000)

Illaoi is very easy to burst down.

Provided you can dodge those tentacles or poke her low first...

5050BS1 votes

Yep that is why she is seen in Plat + all the time top lane, said No plat player ever.

heroikc1 votes

{quoted}

Yep that is why she is seen in Plat + all the time top lane, said No plat player ever.

Plat, gold, silver, who cares? She's annoying for the layman to deal with.

Quáx1 votes

As a person who has played several games of illaoi in the past 2 weeks. I can say that you're pretty right about the lack of interactions with keystones for illaoi. I personally like playing klepto Illaoi but that's really the only thing I can run and it's called meta. However I have tried Predator illaoi a couple of times, Running in the middle of a team then ulting is pretty cool. Its sort of like the thing Annie mains do with predator.

Moody P1 votes

I usually default on Klepto or Grasp. I might try Fleet Footwork since it lets me stay in the amazing Precision tree. Never considered Predator but I could see its value.

Quáx1 votes

I mean just imagine a super fast illaoi barreling down on your entire team and ulting, killing you all.

DeathBurst1 votes

I'm a bit surprised, that feels really counter-intuitive. You're really sure it doesn't stack with tentacle hits at all? You tried it in training tool?

What I would expect is: the W counts for 1 hit, and all the wall tentacles (no matter their number) count for a 2nd hit, so you should get 2 stacks for a W+tentacle hit.

And I'm pretty sure Illaoi has not been special case'd, I blame spaghetti code instead.

Moody P1 votes

It's actually more annoying than I mentioned in OP. If the tentacle is the first thing to hit (meaning you haven't used your W in combat and they've been the Vessel long enough that you arent considered in combat with them anymore) then it will give a stack. After you use W though, no wall tentacles will give stacks at all.

It's very frustrating and annoying with how it sometimes works and then sometimes won't.

DeathBurst1 votes

Well, at this point I think the right reaction is not a thread to complain on the Boards, but simply a Bug Report ^^

PhearBunny1 votes

"Illaoi is the fairest champion in the game.". -Said no melee champion player, ever.

5050BS1 votes

Ya they Cucked her in all of the new Runes.

Klepto is still her ONLY rune.

DH was Very nice when she could get multiple stacks.

Conqueror was also good when You could stack it with Tentacle hits.

Riot just doe not want her to have anything other then Klepto.

Quepha1 votes

I think this is actually pretty consistent with how you would think Illaoi's abilities should work.

  • Attacking a spirit is like attacking a champion in most cases, but killing it is rarely treated like actually killing a champion (if Katarina could reset or Draven could cash in off of a spirit kill that would be a MAJOR yikes). So Dark Harvest should deal its damage like you were damaging a champion below 50% health and give you a stack, but not reset as if you actually killed that champion.
  • Wall tentacles are treated more like pets than Illaoi herself so they wouldn't count as abilities for the purposes of Phase Rush. Do other pets like Yorick's ghouls or Tibbers count for Phase Rush?

That being said, I also think it's kindof a shame that Illaoi's best keystone right now is Kleptomancy as it just doesn't feel like how she wants to play the game. You criticize how Dark Harvest works for her but I think she still has some of the best synergy with it out of all the champions in the game, so maybe the fact that it doesn't work for her is an indicator that it might be underpowered right now. Are there any champions in the game that prefer Dark Harvest and are performing consistently well with it? Maybe it needs a shorter base cooldown, something around 20 seconds instead of 45? Another possibility would be Predator as that would offset her poor mobility, so I'd also want to know if any champions are getting good use out of the keystone and wonder if it might be underpowered in general.

Silly Neeko1 votes

{quoted}

I think this is actually pretty consistent with how you would think Illaoi's abilities should work.

  • Attacking a spirit is like attacking a champion in most cases, but killing it is rarely treated like actually killing a champion (if Katarina could reset or Draven could cash in off of a spirit kill that would be a MAJOR yikes). So Dark Harvest should deal its damage like you were damaging a champion below 50% health and give you a stack, but not reset as if you actually killed that champion.
  • Wall tentacles are treated more like pets than Illaoi herself so they wouldn't count as abilities for the purposes of Phase Rush. Do other pets like Yorick's ghouls or Tibbers count for Phase Rush?

That being said, I also think it's kindof a shame that Illaoi's best keystone right now is Kleptomancy as it just doesn't feel like how she wants to play the game. You criticize how Dark Harvest works for her but I think she still has some of the best synergy with it out of all the champions in the game, so maybe the fact that it doesn't work for her is an indicator that it might be underpowered right now. Are there any champions in the game that prefer Dark Harvest and are performing consistently well with it? Maybe it needs a shorter base cooldown, something around 20 seconds instead of 45? Another possibility would be Predator as that would offset her poor mobility, so I'd also want to know if any champions are getting good use out of the keystone and wonder if it might be underpowered in general.

It is simpler than that even.

The spirit is of the enemy. When it is beaten down, it does not die... it goes back to the enemy. That is not why it is a true clone, which is also why it does not give 25 gold for killing it.

Pets do proc ability things because they are either made by, or are active abilities.... however they act similar to a DOT ability. They can still function by themselves and not go completely and totally null and void if the champion who summoned them stops commanding them, and they are their own entities with their own health (think of like a dog and an owner. Dog can do stuff without owner command). With Illaoi, it is more like the passive adds a Damage over Time effect. It still does physical damage (similar to Darius bleed) so it procs Black Cleaver. However it will not proc Conqueror because it is not a seperate ability..... it is an extention OF an ability. So it is more like a DOT in this sense.

El Hefeweizen1 votes

The spirit does give Illaoi gold for killing it. It used to proc Triumph or Presence of mind too. (Not 100% sure it doesn't now, but it feels like it doesn't) OP is right about Keystones on Illaoi not synergizing. Recommended fixes might be too much, but she was fun to play with conq before rework, now not at all. Klepto was meta then, but I enjoyed having an aggressive option in the runes. Fleet is the best right now and it's very meh. You are weaker than your opponent with Klepto 100% of the time until your first back. 80% of the time you're still weaker after that. Eventually the extra gold compensates for giving up an ability, but then you reach max build and everyone else catches up.

Illaoi is supposed to be overpowered because outplaying Illaoi is fairly easy. That's why she falls off quickly into higher elos. The biggest buff she could receive, which would make her viable in high elo is to make her Q and E animation faster. They're so telegraphed right now they can easily be dodged without boots.

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