General Question: Is it a support or a mage?

RookPusher·Jan 21, 2016·1 votes·684 views

Is there a way to determine why some champs are support and some are mages? I.e. Is there a defining characteristic? Lux is a mage, but but Lulu is a support (iirc) and I'm referring to their Champ Mastery here, not if they're listed as a Main/Secondary.

I support with Maokai often. But I'm still a "Brute" in my masteries. He's a little more straight forward, but the mage/support distinction is a little harder.

14 Comments

PIMPSMOOTHJan 21, 20162 votes

The champion's kit would be the best way to determine it imo.

RookPusherJan 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The champion's kit would be the best way to determine it imo.

Sure, but Lux is beast-level support, and yet she gains ranks as a Mage.

Great, Bard-like poke.
Slow
Root
Shield
Nuke Ult for Flashing ADCs

How isn't she a support?

BeldairJan 21, 20161 votes

She is. She gets used as Support quite often.

PIMPSMOOTHJan 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Sure, but Lux is beast-level support, and yet she gains ranks as a Mage.

Great, Bard-like poke.

Slow

Root

Shield

Nuke Ult for Flashing ADCs

How isn't she a support?

I never stated she wasn't a support. (?) She does well bot lane.

But, there's match ups where she gets pummeled down there. If she misses her root she's easy to engage on and is squish as squish can be.

Sona PingJan 24, 20161 votes

She has three abilities with good scalings that are combo'd together for massive damage. That's clearly a burst mage.

Lulu has two damaging abilities with mediocre scalings that do not combo together and four abilities with CC and utility for her team. That's a utility mage; they usually work well as supports.

RavenhaleJan 21, 20161 votes

I believe it is more about the "scaling" and base damages than anything else. Lulu has pretty strong base values with roughly 50% scalings. Meanwhile Lux and Morgana have scalings that exceed 70%. Lower scaling means less item dependency.

WalkingInACircleJan 21, 20161 votes

Oh, you mean the champion's official class, not the in game position. Its on the champion list, Lux is a mage primary by riot.

AbyssphereJan 21, 20161 votes

It's a very case by case basis, but a generally way to look at it is the maximum burst a champion has. Supports can have high damage skills but overall their kits are low damage in comparison to mages even when built full AP. Lulu will basically never 100-0 someone, for example, while Lux will.

The only named support who that doesn't really work for is Karma but she's also the one champion where I cannot properly fit them into a role. I can't tell if she's a mage or support.

Cowgirl EdJan 21, 20161 votes

It's really all about "supporting" Does this champion work better paired with a team mate? Does he suck in a duel? Can he enhances the power of his team mates? etc.

Moulin RougeJan 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kiss Kiss Kiss,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dFAscXty,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-01-21T19:40:41.811+0000)

It's really all about "supporting" Does this champion work better paired with a team mate? Does he suck in a duel? Can he enhances the power of his team mates? etc.

Problem is Karma, Lux, Orianna and Lulu can fit that.

Theres: Burst Mages: Brand, Anivia, Veigar Utility burst mages (not as bursty as pure mages but in turn have superior utility): Lux and Lissandra Utility mages (less about killing everyone but can hurt): Karma and Lulu Supports: Janna and Nami Fighter mages: Ryze, Kayle, Swain Dps mages: Cass and Azir

That's how I differentiate and some champs still fall between different places.

RookPusherJan 21, 20161 votes

Thanks folks.

I guess it doesn't matter as long as mastery is just cosmetic. But as Ranked gets Role Identity I'm wondering about whether or not being one or the other matters. Without a strong identifier, it's tough to say. Not to mention that Support ranges from Nami and Janne to Braum and Thresh.

tooomineJan 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Thanks folks.

I guess it doesn't matter as long as mastery is just cosmetic. But as Ranked gets Role Identity I'm wondering about whether or not being one or the other matters. Without a strong identifier, it's tough to say. Not to mention that Support ranges from Nami and Janna to Braum and Thresh.

I think Riot has mixed opinions on the subject, as well. You often see them talking about player expression and champion diversity but doing things like pigeonholing champs who find expression in multiple roles to a specific spot on the rift. Like Zyra, for example. I think she's designed as supp, (I don't know, or care enough to look) but she was doing work mid for a while. She got the nerf bat. Soraka did the same thing, for a bit, too, with the same story.

Then, of course, we have graves who can use his true grit passive to be a phenomenal farm jung, top lane, or mad burst from q to be a great ADC, or Lee Sin who is just good everywhere with no reasonable trade-offs for his immense power.

There seems to be very inconsistent efforts from Riot on the issue of how champs are defined for roles, if it is from the player base to the role, or from the designer to the role, often times very different implementations philosophies wind up showing up all over.

The sort of layman philosophical answer to your question about whether it matters, though, is Important depending on who or what gets the final say in a champion's Identity. If its the player base, then knowing if a champ is support or not doesn't matter at all. If the designers dictate a champions identity to the player base, its probably really important to know which is which.

One recent suggestion, which you may have read, is that the line is whether or not the champ builds mana regen vs. mana. Its high up on the main boards thread right now, but the suggestion this guy makes is that later in the season, AP items and champs will be changed so that Ap champs prioritize mana builds, while supports work best with mana regen builds.

Jamatrix666Jan 24, 20161 votes

I support with Maokai also. With him, I feel like I don't have to trade-off anything much, since I can just build him tanky and he's still gonna have a large impact in the game. When you analyze his kit and how you can affect team fights with him, you quickly realize he is a well-rounded champion for this role.

His sustain from his passive procs more often since there's 4 people bot lane.
He has 3 CC in his kit.
A dash root that gives him excellent ability to pick targets.
His E is incredibly strong since it can be used for so. Freaking. Many. Things.

I could go on like this on how he's a great support, and I'm surprised I personally never see him played in this position other than by me.

lil schizoJan 24, 20161 votes

Lux can be played as support since its her secondary role, but her kit contains 4 casting spells which all scale with ap and of which 3 are mainly burst-focused (apart from her q snare which she would use to peel for her carry, or her e slow which she would use mainly for zoning or the straight up damage instead of a cc/utility-tool) and a passive that is damage-focused too, therefore she's a burst/caster mage primarily. When played support, I imagine her being played as a poking support with some peel but she lacks utility compared to other supports. Also, find yourself lose lane with support lux? The little damage she will do from that point on isn't even worth the mana anymore, since she's very mana hungry.

Overall:

she can be played as support but there are better choices out there depending on what a team needs, which should not be support lux since she doesn't necessarily excell at any aspect of supporting, like for instance janna excells at peeling for her teammates. Need straight up damage from your support? Then she's still not that great of a pick.
she scales better as an ap carry because an ap carry build enables her to do a great amount of damage while still being able to toss out those strong shields constantly in mid/late-game teamfights; ap benefits her in every way possible, damage- ánd utility-wise, making her the most efficient as an ap carry.