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The real issue isnt "ADC's" its "Tanks"

SwiftKitten88··19 votes·3,138 views

The fact is the ADC' is supposed to be the sustain dps throughout the fight the mages are supposed to be slightly bursty but provide utility assassins are mobile and try to reach the back line to kill a high priority target bruisers build damage and tank. and provide smart amount of short duration CC as well as damage in a sustain fight (im not putting support as a role as there are multiple types of support, mages and tank but they mostly provide utility )

and tanks are supposed to engage the fight, provide LOTS of continuous CC and peel.

TANKS are not supposed to be able to 1v1 the adc...

tanks are supposed to be able to STOP the enemy adc from doing much, and delay their adc.. and after about 10 seconds.. if no one comes to help them they will probably die to the adc.. but they are not supposed to KILL the adc. they are not supposed to do DAMAGE.

an ADC should ALWAYS beat the tank in a 1v1 if they are the last ones alive. THERE SHOULD BE NO OTHER OUTCOME.

obviously when i say "always" I'm not talking about a bronze 5 adc losing to a diamond 2 tank. I'm talking equal skill level.

also.. i don't play tank... OR adc... but i do support a lot, and i do jungle. the prob is ADC just cant KILL the people they are supposed to kill. ADC is the class DESIGNED to kill the tanks... if they cant do it... no one can...

EDIT: i actually made this thread BEFORE instalock plosted this video and i find it kinda funny that i posted this thread and the same day they made a video about this. (which they obviously count have done in the 4 hours between i made this thread and their video)

but either way it sums everything up rather nicely https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2A6oNtpFuM

89 Comments

Dreadlocks8 votes

that's funny cause right now tanks are hardly even being played outside of maybe poppy and maokai ...

PureSilvrr8 votes

Actually, the problem is that EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE does a ton of damage in my opinion

SwiftKitten882 votes

{quoted}

Actually, the problem is that EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE does a ton of damage in my opinion

well yeah.. there's that.... and this whole issue would be fixed if they fixed that... but i don't see riot doing that any time soon. they're far to stubborn.

Ralanr1 votes

Midseason probably.

JavelinJoe1 votes

more like a week before worlds

WoonStruck2 votes

More like 2020 or later.

Ralanr7 votes

Then stop having ADCs bursting everyone else.

Or you know, actually buy LDR instead of a third crit item.

Edit: honestly do you really expect to be safe from anyone as a glass Cannon? That'd be dumb.

SwiftKitten883 votes

{quoted}

Then stop having ADCs bursting everyone else.

Or you know, actually buy LDR instead of a third crit item.

unless their crazy fed they DON'T burst everyone else.

burst is designed to kill the ADC, whether from assassins or mages, or from a bruiser who just got too close.

the tanks job is to PROTECT the ADC so they can deal damage. peel for the adc. set up kills for the ADC and the team as a whole, neutralize the target trying to reach the adc with cc

as a lvl 7 support i know this. you keep your adc alive... they win you the fight, because after all the burst from all the assasin and mages is gone... after all spells are on cooldown.. the only one left to deal damage is the adc... and if yours is alive.. and their's isn't... you pretty much won the fight.

THAT is the tanks job.. to CC and to protect HIS ADC.. NOT to "kill the enemy ADC".

Ralanr5 votes

The problem is that ANYTHING can kill the enemy adc nowadays. Protecting the ADC has never become more important for tanks due to the amount of peel they need to do to keep them alive.

Now if tanks were only bot lane supports, I'd agree that they're doing to much damage. But then you have jungle and solo lane tanks who have to deal with shit like Darius or Riven. If they have no chance of winning that lane then they basically don't have a laning phase.

Personally I just think damage in general should be toned down rather than just tanks. I don't want my Sion getting a damage nerf despite how bloody unreliable his damage is all because Poppy and Maokai made carries cry.

Maybe with five mastery trees we tanks can have a reason to not go 12 goddamn points into one of the two offense trees which will cut our damage a bit because we aren't relying on shit like battle trance.

It's not the tanks. It's the overloaded damage ramp without defensive compensation. This hurts glass cannons more because they never had defense to begin with.

More damage ramp just hurts damage classes.

Edit: Also tanks have two different jobs. To start fights or protect their carries. They are called Wardens and Vanguards specifically. Two Wardens are being very dumb right now, but I'm not surprised because they were built to function in a solo lane.

Attticus Finch5 votes

I'm a Leona main and also play a fair amount of Sejuani and Rammus, and I agree with this sentiment. Tanks should have not have as much access to damage as they currently do. Poppy and Maokai are probably the biggest offenders in this category due to %health damage in their kits (why would a tank even need %health damage?), but they aren't the only ones who do an impressive amount of burst (Malphite, etc).

In general, League has too much damage in it and there frankly needs to be a damage reduction across the entire board, but within the scope of tanks I agree that champions as durable as they can be should not also be capable of bursting down marksmen and carries.

Ralanr1 votes

Beyond Poppy and Maokai I don't really see tanks bursting people down from 100-0 in one rotation. Several rotations are needed.

Attticus Finch2 votes

I never asserted that tanks can 100-0 people.

Ralanr2 votes

The term "bursting down carries" made me assume such.

Muzét5 votes

They give some tanks a form of damage to make them tanks. Seems weird but they don't want champion to be the same. Yeah tank should provide cc overall. They do. But some attract attentions more than others because they've got abilities to oppress people.

What would you do if maokai didn't had %Max health ? You would completely ignored him anyway specially is you've got a QSS to clear that root. And that's it. Poppy case is more debatable tho.

JavelinJoe1 votes

why would a tank even need %health damage?

likely because if they didn't, then they would fit this post correctly and then no one would ever play time besides pros because they all would be crying that "tanks are not fun to play since I cant destroy a full team because of the low damage output they have". it is the same exact reason only a few players like to support as/with an actual support and not some Mid assassin/burst champ. People like to just run through the opponent being so fed that they can 1v5 easily. Tanks and Tank Supports especially cant easily do this, so no one likes to play them, even though their kits are usually more fun to use.

So RIOT gave them % health damage for when they fight so regardless of how much defense the opponent has, they will always take a decent amount of damage since their own health usually is far greater. And it is "easier to balance" according to RIOT.

Ralanr3 votes

Or they'd just be shit top and not even the pros would pick them up because supports can fulfill the utility just fine. The pros don't really need actual tanks because they have the skills to actually function without them as long as they have some tanky people.

Tanks having %health damage isn't a problem. It allows them to actually interact with their lane opponent.

Attticus Finch1 votes

The meta of pro play is irrelevent to game balance. Pro players make up less than 1% of the game's population.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

So laughable. Seriously. Maokai's percent dmg is a joke if you do the math. You would cry even more if he had flat dmg. There is a reason mao levels his W as last. Poppy is a problem because she has good base dmg ON TOP of percent dmg. Tho she needs it because her E doesn't really deal dmg and her W none except when you interrupt a dash.

Escheton5 votes

STOP FIGHTING THE TANK IN MELEE RANGE AS AN ADC

There, done. Balance.

Longer story: Tanks are usually junglers or toplaners. Have about 2 levels on you, some cc and probably a sunfire or bami to deal damage during that cc. Stop fighting them in that sunfire and you should be fine. Stop thinking that because you are the attack damage Carry that you can ignore all factors of a fight and expect to win in a situation when you are weak where they are stong (melee range).

JavelinJoe2 votes

Then stop giving every melee tankier champion some chase potential or some movement speed buff so they cant be kited while not doing shit for the immobile ADCs.

Ralanr3 votes

League literally has a perfect kiting system. Even with those boosts it's still possible to kite them as an immobile ADC.

It is just very difficult.

JavelinJoe1 votes

It is just very difficult.

That is the problem. It is too easy for tanks to counter kiting and/or ADC's cant effectively kite as well as they are/were meant to.

Ralanr4 votes

Isn't kiting supposed to be hard in the first place?

JavelinJoe1 votes

Somewhat, but no where near as hard as it currently is. Kiting involves a lot of focus and precise mouse clicks and movements, especially if kiting away. Ashe is fairly good at kiting since her autos apply a slow. Same as with Ez when he has item 3025. But since every new/reworked champion now has some form of a dash, blink, slow, or whatever, kiting has become very hard to do effectively. The masteries have also had a negative impact on kiting. Stormraider's surge and Swiftness especially.

Ralanr3 votes

What tank takes Stormraiders?

JavelinJoe1 votes

Not many and not too often, but occasionally I see it on DrMundo and some others.

Ralanr3 votes

Mundo isn't a tank.

JavelinJoe1 votes

Are you joking?

Wet Dryman2 votes

Mundo is a Juggernaut (Fighter subclass).

Here is list of champion subclasses with examples coming from a Rioter: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

JavelinJoe1 votes

I've seen the list, but I disagree with Dr.Mundo's placement. He's always seemed to fit more with the Wardens than the Juggernauts to me which is why I referred to him a tank. He has a lot of sustain, a chunking slow, and an AOE toggle. Plus he scales very well with health items.

Ralanr3 votes

How? What possible defensive ability does Mundo provide for his team beyond being a wall of meat?

Wet Dryman2 votes

Nunu is outdated and is filled into Warden role only because he is a tank that can't initiate and actually he can buff his teammate (which isn't selfish action) and can zone with his ult which can act as unreliable disengage/peel and can reliably spam one of the best slowing abilities which can be considered a peel of some sort.

Ralanr2 votes

{quoted}

Well what defensive ability does Nunu provide?

Nice dodge.

Nunu is just an odd champion. He doesn't really offer defensive power, but he does provide offensive utility in the form of an attack speed buff.

He provides more then Mundo does. Especially since Mundo is often meant to be a damage threat that must be peeled off.

Ralanr1 votes

{quoted}

Hmm, I see. Personally I have never considered Dr. Mundo to be a very big damage threat since I generally only ever see them build full tank. But I see the point.

Eh, from my experience he hurts a lot but that may also be due to how long the fight lasts because he doesn't die. But that's what he does, hurts you and doesn't die.

Wet Dryman2 votes

He can't be a Warden because everything Mundo does is selfish and his kit is filled with damage and his own survivability and Warden by definition can't be selfish and have kit filled only with damage with no hard CC.

Typical Wardens (ex. Shen, Tahm Kench, Alistar, Braum) bring shields, invulnerability, damage reduction, heals, disengage even teleportation and overall peel stuff. In comparison Mundo has self AD steroid, spammable max hp% dmg, selfish MS and regeneration boost. He brings nothing to his teammates in terms of utility he is just another damage source.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

If it makes you feel better I feel like Kog should be a hybrid Artillery. If you build him AP he has the longest range of anyone on that list.

JavelinJoe1 votes

Same

Ralanr2 votes

No hard CC Barely any engage or disengage Incredibly selfish sustain No utility Offers mainly damage and sustain.

Mundo is not a tank. He's a Juggernaut. Could he be reworked into a tank? Most definitely, but as it stands, he is not a fucking tank.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

Riot also lists him as a Juggernaut so that's their intended vision of him.

TLDR: no, I'm not joking. I've gone over this example a lot.

I know my tanks and juggernauts.

MrHaZeYo3 votes

He's considered a Fighter, he has no tank steroids, he just regens a lot of HP. Also Idk why one would bring Stromraiders but I spose its possible.

If anything though Mundo is a Juggernaut not a Tank.

JavelinJoe1 votes

I would argue he would fit both but whatever

MrHaZeYo3 votes

So would Darius, Illoi, Garen, Shyv, Olaf but theres reason's why yhere Juggernauts and not Tanks lol

MrHaZeYo3 votes

He's just a salty ADC main.

Escheton1 votes

{quoted}

Then stop giving every melee tankier champion some chase potential or some movement speed buff so they cant be kited while not doing shit for the immobile ADCs.

Every single adc buys a crit+attackspeed+%movespeed item either first or second. Even the immobile ones can kite or simply run away.

JavelinJoe1 votes

And many melee champs buy item 3071 item 3143 and item 3111 which all counter kiting and help with chasing

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Your trying way to hard.

Most AS based ADs Cait, Ashe, Varus, for example build Hurricane and either PD or RFC. so that's 10% MS increase. Now the melee has to get into melee range to get faster with BC and I rarely see RO anymore. I'd rather the fighter built Mercs over Tabis as a ADC. Then again you also have tier 2 boots.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Except that part most adcs have even higher movement speeds than tanks LUL. The only one with a boost is poppy. Well and rammus but he is interruptable.

Big Lincoln5 votes

adc is a garbage design in league. Let them get shoved out of meta for a bit; everyone else has at some point.

an ADC should ALWAYS beat the tank in a 1v1 if they are the last ones alive. THERE SHOULD BE NO OTHER OUTCOME.

no. immediately you invalidate the intended hard counters Rammus Malphite who are supposed to fuck marksmen, especially 1v1 if they get caught out.

MrHaZeYo3 votes

So you think the problem is that AD's cant kill the people their designed to kill so you want the role that is designed to soak the damage of previous stated role to die quicker.

Also, no a ADC shouldn't beat a tank 1v1, that's why the have a support that lanes with them cause their inherently weaker then Melees. If a support peels Mao off Ashe Ashe will eventually kill him. A ADC should never be going 1v1 with a tank expecting to live.

WoonStruck3 votes

The real issue is masteries, items, and reworks, actually.

Tanks are only an issue because THE ENTIRE GAME is damage-creeped so insanely hard.

Blaming it solely on tanks is stupid. Tanks bursting squishies is a symptom of the problem. If they didn't, tanks would be useless right now because squishies can practically burst them too. lol

Everything's damage needs to be reduced, lifesteal needs to be MUCH more heavily controlled, and then tanks/ADCs both adjusted accordingly to accommodate these relatively large-scope changes.

MorgManBasher3 votes

That video has Garen and Illaoi in it like they are suppose to be OP or something. lul They aren't even tanks, they are juggernauts, don't put them in the same catergory because they aren't even close to be alike.

P.S. Only bads go straight tank on Garen and Illaoi , you generally want at least 2 damage items on both if you want to hard carry. Even the Illaoi in the video goes 3 damage items.

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