Is Death fire grasp a little bit too much of a niche Keystone?

xxxMadLionxxx·Nov 30, 2016·4 votes·688 views

I know there are a few champs who make great use of it. But those are a handful of champs like Jhin. At the same time, those same champs can also use thunder lords just as well.

My argument here is that, the few champs that can benefit more from DFT can also use thunderlords as well. Maybe about 8 champs can use DFT better. And in rare cases, they gain more from DFT.

But is it worth it to dedicate an entire keystone to a handful of champs while those same champs can use thunder lord just as well. Is it not better to rework DFT so more champs can benefit more than thunderlords?

The point I'm trying to make, is DFT isn't serving enough champs when compared to other keystones to make it worth a keystone slot....

Let me know what you thing...

15 Comments

RalanrNov 30, 20163 votes

Windspeakers, fervor, CoTC. We have niche keystrones. Not everything can be as generalist as TLD (especially since the strength of TLD is that it works on everyone).

DrCyanideNov 30, 20161 votes

For the Keystones you mentioned there are options for those who can't use the specialized case in that Mastery Branch.

You don't use Fervor, then you can use Warlords.
You don't use Windspeakers, you can use Thunderlords.
You don't use Courage of the Colossus, you can use Bond of Stone.

For Mages, there's no alternative in the Ferocity branch. It's Deathfire Touch or... better auto attacks? It seems odd that the offensive line, which has AP/AD options all throughout, has a keystone that alienates sooo many AP champions as it's only AP keystone.

RalanrNov 30, 20161 votes

No I get that. Honestly the ferocity tree favors AD champions more than AP. The cunning tree however can utilize two of those keystones very well (but there's no reason to take stormraiders because people want more damage rather than an escape option).

Sona PingNov 30, 20161 votes

To be fair, we have to look at the Mastery system as a whole; it's different in effect than in previous seasons.

Look at what we are getting (or giving up) by going 18 into Ferocity. The difference between 18 and 12 points, what you are giving up by taking a different keystone is only Piercing Thoughts (7%mpen), and that's a mastery that mages would be mostly indifferent about giving up. Actually, It's kind of like that for most of the fifth tiers. You aren't limited in your choices by which tree you go fully into.

TalisidNov 30, 20163 votes

The thing is that the Ferocity Tree is for sustained DPS. Most mages aren't focused on sustained DPS. If you're Swain Zyra AurelionSol Karthus etc. you can make excellent use of DFT because you're constantly refreshing the DOT and over the duration of a sustained engagement DFT does much more damage than Thunderlord's.

If you want to do burst damage, as most mages do, then you take Cunning.

RebonackNov 30, 20163 votes

I still think it should be balanced around dealing full damage on AoE effects. That would make it clear that Deathfire is for AoE and poke while Thunderlord's is for single target burst.

AttackOnTeemosNov 30, 20161 votes

I rather have the keystone then the item that was in game... -.-; Those are dark days....

astralwitNov 30, 20161 votes

Not really, I think it's fine and is one of the FEW cases where you have an actual choice for keystones. For example, I can play Ziggs with TLD or DFT and they're both equally viable but with different strengths. DFT may be a little weaker overall but it's still a valid choice.

Kitten of EvilNov 30, 20161 votes

I think it's a good option to have, because without it, basically all mages would be forced into Thunderlord's. I mean what else are you going to run on Xerath, Ziggs, or Brand?

Fervor and Warlord's are useless, Windspeakers only helps if you have a heal or shield, and Stormraider's is really subpar on immobile mages who should already be position-concious and poking from the backline.

I'd really much rather there be multiple options for a class of champions rather than a single one. ADCs for example can benefit from Warlord's, Fervor, or some of them Thunderlord's.

xxxMadLionxxxNov 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dE5rzaAP,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-11-30T19:28:10.751+0000)

I think it's a good option to have, because without it, basically all mages would be forced into Thunderlord's. I mean what else are you going to run on Xerath, Ziggs, or Brand?

Fervor and Warlord's are useless, Windspeakers only helps if you have a heal or shield, and Stormraider's is really subpar on immobile mages who should already be position-concious and poking from the backline.

I'm not saying to remove it. I'm saying there isn't much of a reason to take it over thunderlords. It rarely beats thunderlords which is why I think it needs some fine tunning

Kitten of EvilNov 30, 20161 votes

I think there are reasons to take it in certain matchups. I've used it on Xerath and Veigar where I know my lane opponent is too scary to get close for a triple proc (Syndra, for example). It's also viable on your DOT mages Swain, Cass, Malzahar, and Brand.

Sona PingNov 30, 20161 votes

Well, there's not really any other options here. Either there is a keystone which works well on some champions but ends up kind of niche or the keystone is very general and can be used by anyone and still works better on some champions anyway. No matter the implementation, it's going to have that effect. So you may as well make something for the champs with more niche needs and can use more niche keystones.

ValeckseraiNov 30, 20161 votes

Jhin Rumble Swain Singed Malzahar Karthus Fiddlesticks Cassiopeia Varus all use dft very well, and several others can take it as a decent option. So you want to remove it.

Taric Soraka Sona Ivern Janna Karma Lulu Nami use windspeakers, and pretty much no one else, but that's fine apparently.

Seriously though, removing or reworking dft would cripple a lot of the people who need it. Yes, some of them CAN use other keystones, but they are garbage compared to dft for a lot of them.

DolasaurNov 30, 20161 votes

It's hard to put forth an opinion without knowing what you're thinking of reworking it into. Right now DFT is the only reasonable choice for a number of champions. If you just did a straight buff, then some of them would be obnoxious with it (like Brand, and to an extent the artillery mages).

It also might just be a false dilemma to start with. There's no reason Riot couldn't just add a fourth keystone. (I mean, they did replace SoA with CoC, but they could presumably alter the UI to fit a fourth option without too much trouble.)