Shouldn't we buff talon?

UdoIkOSc4u··4 votes·433 views

Zed was op not Talon

16 Comments

Vistha Kai2 votes

Except that Talon is just as strong as before. He can still blow anybody under 1 sec. The only thing he lost was unnecessary CC.

UdoIkOSc4u3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dB2BdZtM,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-05-18T20:06:24.757+0000)

Except that Talon is just as strong as before. He can still blow anybody under 1 sec. The only thing he lost was unnecessary CC.

his kit was built around his silence lol after he lost that he needs a rework

Vistha Kai1 votes

His kit inherently lacks a meaningful form of counterplay.

Before, you either lived long enough for silence to end or you died. Right now, you either have a dash/invulnerability/reliable CC or you die.

There are 3 options:

  1. He gets a rework - not likely.
  2. He gets a nerf - more likely.
  3. Remains as is until becomes too popular - the most possible outcome.
Troy2426213 votes

That's like taking away an anti-mage's silence and then saying "Ah it's fine, they didn't need it anyways, they're still just as good," even though it's the only advantage they'd have over Zed.

'Cause that's exactly what happened >.>.

AyRe CoNteMpT1 votes

the advantage he has over zed is great AoE damage in teamfights aswell as alot faster damage combos.

Troy2426211 votes

His safety is so much lower that his contribution will almost certainly be less, not to mention he can't keep a lead if fed nearly as well, resulting in more gold in enemy hands. To top it off, his single target assassination is weaker.

Yes he has a couple meaningful advantages but they mean far less than the plethora of advantages Zed has over him.

AyRe CoNteMpT1 votes

only if you make them mean less. its like "omg he has advantage x and y and if i play into them i lose, so broken". people need to learn to play into their own advantages.

Troy2426211 votes

That's simply ignoring the fact that some advantages are strictly better than others. You can play to your advantages all you'd like, but at the end of the day, the overall effectiveness will be lower.

You can sugar coat that if you'd like, but that's the truth of the matter, and is why Zed, and not Talon, is a frequent pick. His advantage of safety and capacity to "outplay" far exceeds Talon's advantages.

AyRe CoNteMpT1 votes

also, gnar and maokai with teleport are frequent picks while darius and garen with ignite arent. you can either become a good player and beat people who play what they see in lcs without knowing why by playing to your own advantages, or you can not. its really up to you.

Troy2426211 votes

You're still intentionally playing a weaker champion. I don't play mid lane, and have no incentive to get out the torch and pitchforks against Zed, nor rally to buff Talon. I'm stating that objectively he is inferior to Zed.

It has nothing to do with sheeping to the LCS meta..That's just straw man to presume I am saying "Use LCS champs or it sucks."

If you check my match history, you'll see more offpicks than meta picks. This is because I'm familiar with them. That doesn't make them objectively on par with their competition.

Desiderium1 votes

{quoted}

You're still intentionally playing a weaker champion. I don't play mid lane, and have no incentive to get out the torch and pitchforks against Zed, nor rally to buff Talon. I'm stating that objectively he is inferior to Zed.

It has nothing to do with sheeping to the LCS meta..That's just straw man to presume I am saying "Use LCS champs or it sucks."

If you check my match history, you'll see more offpicks than meta picks. This is because I'm familiar with them. That doesn't make them objectively on par with their competition.

Zed and Talon do totally different things and have completely different gameplay during their assassinations.

Zed is focused entirely on fairly outplaying the enemy. That's why most of his QQ comes from people who are unskilled at the game. Ever since his release.

Talon is focused on AoE damage and bursting as fast as he can. His kills are not as assured as Zed's, but MUCH faster than Zed's.

Talon punishes squishies who stick together. Squishies need to stick together to counter Zed.

You can't compare these champions.

Source: I've mained Talon since I started playing this game 3-4 years ago. I've mained Zed since he was released almost 3 years ago.

With that all said, Talon DOES need a buff. Nothing more than a channel interrupt on his E and he should be okay.

Troy2426211 votes

Zed and Talon are AD mid assassins that, due to Talon's silence removal, perform the same role. To clear the decks:


Talon Advantages:

Less telegraphedl Quicker combos Easier to use Easier to master AoE collateral Damage


Zed Advantages:

Superior farming Manaless Superior poke Far superior safety Higher outplay potential Higher single target burst More mobility Less snowball reliant Easier to recover from a lost lane with Nearly un-gankable when played properly

AyRe CoNteMpT1 votes

man, you are totally not getting the point. look at your list, if talon has ANY meaningful point that zed does not have, he has a power over him in that area and if you dont play INTO THAT EXACT POWER then he ofcourse is inferior but IF YOU DO, then he does something zed could never do and therefore beats him in this one way of playing.

sure it might be very situational, but then assassinating someone with zed is also very situational, assuming you play against people and not toast.

for example, maokai with TP has about 500 good points you can count to say hes like super viable while darius with ignite has like 3, but if you play 100% into those 3 powers, you will make maokai unable to use any of his, thus making you the better champion. and even if its another matchup where you cant deny your opponent 100%, you can still play a champion that dominates and outscales the enemy champion/team in teamfights/skirmishes and thus you are the better champion not by doing everything better, but by doing this one thing better that has more impact than every other thing that other champion has.

Troy2426211 votes

Splitting my replies into paragraphs.


Your entire argument seems to be "Oh, Talon has some strengths over Zed, you even said so! Abuse them and he's not inferior!" and that just isn't true. They fill the same niche now, and Zed does it better.

Every assassin is situational, the point is that Talon is even more situational. He has always been a niche pick, and his niche has been reduced even further.


The reason is because while Talon can abuse HIS strengths, so can Zed. If we're discussing skill making the difference, Talon loses out again, because his skill ceiling is lower than Zeds, going back to Zed's superior outplay potential. That is why simply playing to Talon's strengths is insufficient. You could simply play to Zed's strengths and do better with far less weaknesses.


As for your rhetoric following that argument, it is a false equivalency. Darius and Maokai don't fill the same role, and one is an early game bully. Your argument then seems to turn into "Yeah Talon isn't a master of all, but he performs one role better and if you abuse that it can make him coexist with Zed." That used to be true. Talon used to be a superior anti-mage, and therefore he successfully coexisted with Zed because he did do one thing strictly better that is meaningful enough to warrant his pick. However, due to his nerfs, he fills the exact same role as Zed.

A better comparison would be Rengar and Nocturne. Both are AD pick assassins, capable of going for a high damage or bruiser builds, both jungle, both farm well and both have CC and defense mechanisms to stick to their respective targets. They are, therefore, comparable. However, why pick one over the other? Rengar has his reveal potion of his ultimate, faster hard CC, and his Ferocity regeneration helps his staying power in a fight. Nocturne, on the other hand, is even stickier with his spellshield and more accessible movespeed boost, has a much more instant ultimate and denies vision to the enemy rather than grants it for himself. Depending on what your composition and you as a player prefer, both can be justifiably picked. This, however, still isn't the same as Talon and Zed, leading to my final argument.

THE END POINT IS THIS: Advantages over other champions are not a simple matter. Some are simply more meaningful than others, some depend on a certain team composition, some fare better against certain champions, some are better in certain situations and so fourth. However, Talon and Zed are so comparable in both strengths and weaknesses that they are directly comparable. Time had it, this wasn't the case. Talon had a legitimate reason to be chosen over Zed, and that was his use as a counterpick. Now? They perform the same role, and Zed does it better.

AyRe CoNteMpT2 votes

talon is fine as he is. why do you want to ruin good champions?

UdoIkOSc4u1 votes

{quoted}

talon is fine as he is. why do you want to ruin good champions?

nope see his liv 1 mana costs

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