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Why does it feel like AP champs just keep getting screwed by every item change...

SwiftKitten88··91 votes·4,349 views

TLDR: since season 3 AP has gone down, AD and MR has gone UP, and we still only have 1 AP + armor item.

as somone who has played since season 3... its really seems like AP champs just keep getting screwed over with every item update...

item 3157 used to be 120 ap and its now 70 and has a 90 second cooldown instead of 60 item 3116 now has 75ap down from 100 less hp and less slow (but honestly i don't give a crap about the slow, it was the only AP+ HP item that wasn't gated by a passive/active that had instant stats

item 3025 lost its ap item 3174 umm yeah... no comment

they addeditem 3030 item 3146 item 3152 all of which are niche for certain champion only and cant be by the vast majority of ap

item 3027 is good but is still gated by the time it takes to stacks item 3151 only even started to become relevant at 80 hp at 300 hp becuase everything else was nerfed, and it still is much worse if u dont have a slow

the only item that seems to remain at the prime are item 3100 and item 3040 plus the new item 3504 and we have the item that all ap champs need to get in item 3165 becuase its the ONLY item that has decent ap now alone with CDR and they just slapped on grievous wounds on top of that making it the first buy for any ap champ

meanwhile AD got item 3814 and a bunch of new items during that ADC and assassin reworks

and what do us AP get on PBE? lets swap the actives and names for item 3102 and item 3001 give it 10 more ap and just the MR by 15 yay we got 10 more ap... while also losing the 10% extra damage, and 15 mr

meanwhile AD gets MORE buffs to item 3074 item 3094 item 3072 item 3812 item 3085 item 3031 item 3026 item 2015

and on top of that EVERY champion now gets MR scaling per level.

there just isn't FLAT AP on items anymore to deal with all the increases to MR and the increased to AD, which btw we STILL only have item 3157 with AP and armor. and if we want ANY sort of decent armor we wither need to drop our boots for item 3047 or drop another one of our items for a item that gives us no offensive power.

AP damage is just going down across to board while AD damage is going up

with all the MR additions i am likely going to need to get item 3135 instead of item 3089

meaning a SIX ITEM build on nidalee is going to look like this item 1410 item 3100 item 3157 item 3158 item 3135 item 3001 60+80+70+0+80+60

thats 350 ap lategame... at max build (not including runes and masteries)

i mean lets assume we get all highest ap items

item 3089 item 3040 item 3165 item 3027 those are the only ap items that give 100 or more ap, now assuming we buy boots item 3020 thats gives us 1 more items slot.

im not going to do the math for AP right now but the amount of AP we get is just going down and down while AD is going up, MR is going ap, while we still only have ONE AP + armor item..

we dont really HAVE item slots to drop for just a flat defensive armor item

if you want to lower damage creep fine, im good with that. except you're NOT, you're ONLY lowering AP damage while BUFFING AD damage.

i wouldn't have an issue with all these nerfs it it wasn't for the blatant buffs AD are getting.

148 Comments

Linna Excel12 votes

as somone who has played since season 3... its really seems like AP champs just keep getting screwed over with every item update...

AP champs have been getting screwed for awhile now when it comes to items.

AP damage is just going down across to board while AD damage is going up

To be fair, armor is going up as well in the upcoming patch.

with all the MR additions i am likely going to need to get item 3135 instead of item 3089

meaning a SIX ITEM build on nidalee is going to look like this item 1410 item 3100 item 3157 item 3158 item 3135 item 3001 60+80+70+0+80+60

thats 350 ap lategame... at max build (not including runes and masteries)

Nidalee is crap lategame even without items. You win early and snowball teammates or you are the most useless thing ever.

Also, about the 100 AP items: item 3040: really difficult for a lot of champs to stack, kills their early game if they get it. With fast games, unless you must have 1,000 mana and you are a late game champ, it's not worth it. item 3027: not good on everyone, again it sacrifices early game power in a meta where you need early game power.

SwiftKitten887 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dAN4ktfA,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-04-11T03:54:30.858+0000)

AP champs have been getting screwed for awhile now when it comes to items.

Nidalee is crap lategame even without items. You win early and snowball teammates or you are the most useless thing ever.

Also, about the 100 AP items: item 3040: really difficult for a lot of champs to stack, kills their early game if they get it. With fast games, unless you must have 1,000 mana and you are a late game champ, it's not worth it. item 3027: not good on everyone, again it sacrifices early game power in a meta where you need early game power.

all of those are true

To be fair, armor is going up as well in the upcoming patch.

but i dint see armor going up..

what 10+ armor on item 3068 and item 3742 and and a new item of gargoyle stoneplate?

all those do is buff tanks, no ap champ is going to get those anyways. (and yes i know champs like Maokai is ap but u know what i mean) at the same time stoneplate also give MR as it does armor visage now gives even more MR

i mean yeah they are doing a great job of buffing tanks... i dont have an issue with that..

except then we ALSO randomly get

item 3812 *

Attack damage increased from 75 to 80
Unique Passive - changed from 15% to 30% of damage taken is dealt as a Bleed over 3 seconds instead.

item 3026

Total Cost: 2400g
Build Path: Pickaxe + Long Sword + Cloth Armor + 875g
    +40 Attack Damage
    +30 Armor
    Unique Passive: Upon taking lethal damage, restores 50% of base Health and 30% of maximum Mana after 4 seconds of stasis (300 second cooldown).

item 3031

Total cost lowered from 3600 to 3400

item 2015

Total price increased from 750g to 800g. 
Energized strike damage increased from 40 to 50 bonus magic damage.

item 3094

Damage on energized attack changed from [50-160] to [50-120]

[new effect] Attacks become Energized 25% faster.

item 3074

Attack damage increased from 75 to 80

item 3085

Build path changed from [Recurve Bow + Zeal + 300g] to  [Dagger + Zeal + Dagger + 800g]
Bolt damage increased from 25% attack damage to 40% attack damage.
[removed] UNIQUE Passive: Basic attacks deal an additional 15 physical damage on hit.

item 3072 AD increased from 75 to80.

i mean REALLY? AD buff across the freaking board.. tanks buffs across the board.. and again AP gets the middle finger..

Kilanost3 votes

Nothing of what is happening on PBE is a tank buff. People are saying tanks are just getting obliterated.

NineTailedMystic7 votes

Getting 100% extra HP in a teamfight is "getting obliterated"? 15% less magic damage from a repeated spell after being damaged by it for 5 seconds when more damage refreshes it?

Voluug138 votes

15% less magic damage from a repeated spell after being damaged by it for 5 seconds when more damage refreshes it?

This just goes full circle into another AP/mage nerf.

And guess what? Tanks just buy 1 and half MR items and they dont worry about mages and their linear scaling. Tanks are currently getting melted by AD damage and all that... which is getting buffed lmao

ZT Xperimentor10 votes

They've been getting screwed over for a while, just look back at when they removed deathfire grasp & will of ancients for being 'too' powerful. Meanwhile marksmen got to abuse even more critical hits & armor penetration, while not sacrificing lifesteal.

SwiftKitten889 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dAN4ktfA,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-04-11T04:38:03.094+0000)

They've been getting screwed over for a while, just look back at when they removed deathfire grasp & will of ancients for being 'too' powerful. Meanwhile marksmen got to abuse even more critical hits & armor penetration, while not sacrificing lifesteal.

to be fair deathfire grasp did have a op active, but they still removed a 120 ap 10 CDR item..

what do we have now

item 3089 120+(35%) item 3285 100 item 3165 100 item 3027 60-100 (gated by time to stack) item 3040 80+ (gated by time to stack) item 3100 80 item 3030 80 gated by active in melee range item 3151 80 gated by if u dont have a slow u cant use effectively item 3115 80 how many ap used attack speed? item 3146 80 great our only spellvamp item gives us AD now

and now for AD item 3812 going to be 80 + another buff item 3072 going to be 80 item 3074 going to be 80 item 3031 price down by 200

new items item 3147 leathity item 3814 3rd mr + ad item.. item 3508 now ADc get 40% cdr with 1 item having cdr and a normal build

want to know what it was in season 4? 120 AP item 3157 60 second cooldown, 5 more armor 400 more gold 120 ap item 3089 more less ap 500 less gold (5% less bonus ap) 120 deathfire grasp (removed) 80 Will of the Ancients (removed) (spell vamp)

now we did get some cool items item 3285 100 ap and the item 3152 60 item 3030 80 which are niche or certain champs but yeah... you used to be able to get 360 ap with 3 items and one of those items would increase the ap by 30%

ZT Xperimentor5 votes

That's more or less my point. They could've just removed the active & buffed the cooldown to keep deathfire grasp. I'd forgotten luden's echo was added then; but the extra hextech items feel pretty bad unless used on someone with mobility or against a diver.

ModAcademy Kayn10 votes

Remember when that huge meme that got huge about the -5 AD nerf. And yet, a +5 ad buff is somehow a god-like buff. The items are getting more AD, because Penetration is getting nerfed. This results in ADC's doing more damage around constant DPS on a tank, and less about just ignoring defenses. That's why those AD items were buffed.

And I honestly don't get the AP circlejerk. Mages aren't in a terrible spot, and are still doing pretty well.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku3 votes

its simple, op dosn't understand the game.... they are all crying about ap item... but come on look the next item 3102 far mor broken than item 3814 (when this item was at 60 ad)

Catastrop2 votes

Lmao, how??? It's still a worthless 40 second spell shield.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Late game it scales down to 8 sec CD. Do some research

(PBE Notes)

Catastrop7 votes

Banshee's Veil (experimental) ** Magic resist lowered from 60 to 45 Ability power increased from 60 to 70 Total cost lowered from 2900 to 2700 Effect refresh changed from [44-8 seconds based on level] to 40 seconds. https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sVpFgEQllh0/WOvnCkftnkI/AAAAAAAAiAE/DwtqTR-802k6Z3zs7Lq31fzKpoekvp6sgCLcB/s1600/banshee.jpg Maybe you should take your own advice.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/ac4f3e19057e49af0edb311032c8cbd1.png

https://i.gyazo.com/e9004eb668b9a4b41ee32275da4633e3.png

Knight takes rook. Your turn

Catastrop5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dAN4ktfA,comment-id=000500010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-11T15:09:41.486+0000)

https://i.gyazo.com/ac4f3e19057e49af0edb311032c8cbd1.png

https://i.gyazo.com/e9004eb668b9a4b41ee32275da4633e3.png

Knight takes rook. Your turn

Mate that was the last PBE cycle, in the current one they've removed the scaling CD and adjusted the stats a bit. It's listed as an "experimental change" but we all what that means. Did you even check S@20 after reading my reply?

Brutalitops016 votes

Because MR costs significantly more than armor and oftentimes the items are completely useless on anyone who doesn't have a specific synergy with them. As an example, Spirit visage. You're paying for that heal increase passive, but if you don't have any heals and none of your allies have any heals, you're not getting any benefit from it.

item 1033: costs 450G, gives +25 MR (+18 MR/1 Gold spent) item 1029: costs 300G, gives +15 Armor (+20 Armor/1 Gold spent) If armor pen weren't as strong as it is (which they are gutting it as well), it would be completely worthless to build armor. Magic Resistance, on the other hand, has about 2 items which are actually decent on most tanks (item 3026 and item 3065) and I personally don't get why Spirit Visage is so prominent because of how garbage the item's 25% healing is if neither you or any of your allies have any healing, yet it's still built on a fair number of tanks. Personally I think Banshee's Veil is just better all around for MR if you have a lower heal comp.

BakedLotion20 votes

{quoted}

Because MR costs significantly more than armor and oftentimes the items are completely useless on anyone who doesn't have a specific synergy with them. As an example, Spirit visage. You're paying for that heal increase passive, but if you don't have any heals and none of your allies have any heals, you're not getting any benefit from it.

People buy that shit anyway because it affects ALL healing, has insane stats, and is the SAME EXACT price as other tank items

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit_Visage Spirit Visage is 121.96% gold efficient, without its full passive.

lol nice joke

Brutalitops011 votes

{quoted}

People buy that shit anyway because it affects ALL healing, has insane stats, and is the SAME EXACT price as other tank items

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit_Visage Spirit Visage is 121.96% gold efficient, without its full passive.

lol nice joke

I hadn't calculated out Visage's gold efficiency, my bad. Either way, though, from personal experience it still won't help much if the enemy AP champion is too fed.

PrinceOfStorms17 votes

Abyssal Scepter, one of the effective MPen items, is losing all of its AP.

There will no longer be any MPen besides Sorc shoes and Void Staff, while AD gets Lethality and Last Whisper Items.

Lifesteal just got buffed while Spell Vamp has been gone for a while. Holy shit riot. AD items deserved sweeping nerfs, not buffs.

BakedLotion9 votes

{quoted}

Because MR costs significantly more than armor and oftentimes the items are completely useless on anyone who doesn't have a specific synergy with them. As an example, Spirit visage. You're paying for that heal increase passive, but if you don't have any heals and none of your allies have any heals, you're not getting any benefit from it.

item 1033: costs 450G, gives +25 MR (+18 MR/1 Gold spent) item 1029: costs 300G, gives +15 Armor (+20 Armor/1 Gold spent) If armor pen weren't as strong as it is (which they are gutting it as well), it would be completely worthless to build armor. Magic Resistance, on the other hand, has about 2 items which are actually decent on most tanks (item 3026 and item 3065) and I personally don't get why Spirit Visage is so prominent because of how garbage the item's 25% healing is if neither you or any of your allies have any healing, yet it's still built on a fair number of tanks. Personally I think Banshee's Veil is just better all around for MR if you have a lower heal comp.

Visage is 122% gold efficient without the passive. That's why.

JhomasTefferson4 votes

Theres still no Ad and armor item, and no attack speed and armor item. We need those. Ad is underpowered.

SwiftKitten8811 votes

{quoted}

Theres still no Ad and armor item, and no attack speed and armor item. We need those. Ad is underpowered.

and part of the REASON not having armor on items is such a big issue is because AD is skyrocketing.

your problem is with no armor you cant survive against AD, our problem is with no armor we cant survive against AD.

is ANYONE having an issue surviving against AP??? didn't think so.

and your statement is

{quoted} Ad is underpowered.

JhomasTefferson3 votes

Yeah. No one really survives veigar burst with any amount of MR if he decides to dump his full combo on you.

Ahri is pretty good at blowing people up. Syndra and Ori too. Mr does help against them, but, how much mr should you really have to build not to be instagibbed when playing as a bruiser character?

SwiftKitten889 votes

{quoted}

Yeah. No one really survives veigar burst with any amount of MR if he decides to dump his full combo on you.

Ahri is pretty good at blowing people up. Syndra and Ori too. Mr does help against them, but, how much mr should you really have to build not to be instagibbed when playing as a bruiser character?

right start off with the only champ with infinitly stacking AP. the whole point of the thread was the increase to AD and the lowering of AP. and the first thing you state to try to "prove" why this isn't and issue is a champ that gets ap without items..

Ahri does true damage with her orb on the way back and needs to land a charm, Syndra needs to set up 6-7 orbs to actually 1 shot you and her W does 20% true damage when maxed.

and ori... yeah not sure why saying ori can instagib a bruiser..

not that ANY of those champs can.. except Veigar, but yeah we discussed that

JhomasTefferson1 votes

Ori is pretty strong. Also, i forgot this before, Ap karma can be terrifying. I play her top sometimes, and with just a small lead i 1v2 the jg, usually killing them, and most jg's are what i'd call bruisers, if theyre not mages, tanks or assassins. Brand also was strong, but i haven't seen a lot of him rececntly... Idk why.

jr deputy meow11 votes

ori is a decent champ, but she has a sub-50 winrate and saying she can instagib a bruiser is completely bullshit

veigarbage can9 votes

{quoted}

right start off with the only champ with infinitly stacking AP. the whole point of the stream was the increase to AD and the lowering of AP. and the first thing you state to try to "prove" why this isn't and issue is a champ that gets ap without items..

Ahri does true damage with her orb on the way back and needs to land a charm, Syndra needs to set up 6-7 orbs to actually 1 shot you and her W does 20% true damage when maxed.

and ori... yeah not sure why saying ori can instagib a bruiser..

not that ANY of those champs can.. except Veigar, but yeah we discussed that

Veigar is bad if it's anyone that rushes Hexdrinker. I should know, lmao.

Veigar can instagib a bruiser, if he's fed as all hell in stacks. 200+ in 20 minutes or gtfo.

veigarbage can9 votes

{quoted}

Yeah. No one really survives veigar burst with any amount of MR if he decides to dump his full combo on you.

Ahri is pretty good at blowing people up. Syndra and Ori too. Mr does help against them, but, how much mr should you really have to build not to be instagibbed when playing as a bruiser character?

Ha. Hahahahaha. Hahahahahahahahaha.

What are you smoking? Build Banshee's, it's over for Veigar. Build Hexdrinker, you crush all 4 of them. A 1300 gold item that ruins every burst mage. You literally just build Maw/Hexdrinker, and GG for mages. You're virtually unkillable to them in a solo fight.

BakedLotion42 votes

{quoted}

Theres still no Ad and armor item, and no attack speed and armor item. We need those. Ad is underpowered.

GA is gonna be AD armor.

And guess what? AP isn't getting anything

JhomasTefferson5 votes

Why are they buffing the ADCs and assassins? My comment was sarcasm. I knew that the reason why ad items didnt give armor was so assassins could counter adcs. This is gonna be so shit.

DeathBot66622 votes

You tried to be sarcastic on a gameplay thread.

You have so much to learn about how these forums work...

Dessem6 votes

Use either kappa or /s at the end of such a line so people get it, there's plenty who hold to that narrative and believe in it.

Im A Jayce God1 votes

why would a Mage that has 700 ap, 1 second cooldown times that can be casted from afar, need armor lmao.

BakedLotion4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Im A Jayce God,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dAN4ktfA,comment-id=000100010002,timestamp=2017-04-12T07:12:00.834+0000)

why would a Mage that has 700 ap, 1 second cooldown times that can be casted from afar, need armor lmao.

I'd like to play that champ. Which one is it?

Incarceration4 votes

CDR. You get more rotations off.

I believe we are also getting a new AP+MR item. It's supposed to be like EoN, but better.

Scary Door9 votes

Except with damage creep being what it is, you could have URF-like CDR and still BARELY get one rotation off before you're blown up.

OP is right. AP champs have been gradually falling off since Season 1 (Especially since season 4).

Deathfire Grasp : 120 AP (no longer exists) Zhonyas : 120 AP (now 70 AP) Rabadons : 120 AP (unchanged) Rylais Crystal Scepter : 100 AP (now 75 AP)

That's a lot of AP that is no longer on the board. Sure, Morello has 100 AP now, but that doesn't make up for the significant loss of AP we've had over the last few seasons.

SwiftKitten886 votes

[{quoted}](name=Scary Door,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dAN4ktfA,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2017-04-11T14:33:07.846+0000)

Except with damage creep being what it is, you could have URF-like CDR and still BARELY get one rotation off before you're blown up.

OP is right. AP champs have been gradually falling off since Season 1 (Especially since season 4).

Deathfire Grasp : 120 AP (no longer exists) Zhonyas : 120 AP (now 70 AP) Rabadons : 120 AP (unchanged) Rylais Crystal Scepter : 100 AP (now 75 AP)

That's a lot of AP that is no longer on the board. Sure, Morello has 100 AP now, but that doesn't make up for the significant loss of AP we've had over the last few seasons.

i cant talk for seasons 1 and 2, but yeah, it donest.

but honestly i feel the issue is MORE the INCREASE to AD items

they had i think ONE 80 damage item in item 3031

i don't even want to check how many they have now...

i mean dont forget AP start with ZERO AD.. while EVERY champ starts with AD.

Sraeg20132 votes

Then there was item 3072 which had to be stacked to reach full potential which was halved every time you died.

Anidan3 votes

The funny thing is that, in theory, mages probably should've been able to have good damage (not the greatest, though) but with money to spare for utility because they don't have to spend gold to increase their damage using anything other than AP and CDR due to having no crit. Mages instead have to pay quite a lot to have decent offensive capability and for rather lackluster item utility (lol no GW until 35%).

So uh... good job, Rito.

DarkRitual3 votes

item 3030 Isn't nearly as bad as you think it is. It's actually a good item on a lot of mages.

NineTailedMystic19 votes

Aurelion Sol and.... yea I got nothing.

GayFluffyUnicorn5 votes

Yeah same XD. Some build it on swain but i found it to be garbage on swain.

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Singed

I love this item on him. But it is a bit cheesy...

TheMinez3 votes

There are just better options for him if he wants item 3010, namely item 3800. There is also the option of item 3146 if he wants spell*Omnivamp... It is decent on him, don't get me wrong, but he already builds item 3116 item 3800 so the only real thing that it would be useful for would be the stats and the active's damage.

BLACK REALM GOD3 votes

item 3001 item 3102 item 3026 item 3156 item 3139 item 3091 item 3174 item 3060 item 3814 item 3190 item 3111 item 3222 item 3065 item 3512

item 3170 item 3137

there's a magic resist item for every build.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

And ??

BLACK REALM GOD7 votes

item 3157 item 3050 item 3135 item 3116 item 3027 item 3089 item 3115 item 3165 item 3285 item 3100 item 3151 item 3152 item 3146 item 3030 item 3124 item 3092 item 3174 item 3504 item 3003 item 3001 item 2301

item 3170 item 3090

all items above have AP

of these items 5 were designed with supports in mind and 1 was redesigned for supports since it was being bought on everyone

1 of them was shoehorned in as an eternity alternative and another was just purely shoehorned in

rageblade, nashoors and lich bane are for basic attackers

2 items are better for assassins with AP stats

1 item is better for tanks

and so what you're left with is 5 actual mage items =

roa, deathcap, archangel staff, morrelonomicon, and void staff.

and then of course the all purpose items that literally everyone with AP buys zhonya and abyssal

morris14 votes

rageblade, nashoors and liandrys are for basic attackers

??

BLACK REALM GOD2 votes

thanks for that. i typoed. dont want to confuse people. i meant lich bane.

DeathBurst2 votes

Every item rework, Mages are complaining. And yet, plenty of Mages are still played a lot.

I don't fuckin' care wether AD or AP itemization is better, that's a bloody useless question. And if you really HAVE to talk about AD vs AP itemization, you have to understand that items do not exist in a vacuum. IF, and that's a big if, AD itemization is better than AP itemization, then the base kit of AD champs is under-powered compared to the base kit of AP champs.

What I do care about is: does every champ have good item choices and are they viable? And for most AP champs today, the answer is still yes, despite all the nerfs and not-so-nerfs that happened. I don't deny that a lot of changes happened, and that most of them were nerfs (but not all), but if AP champs are still playable today, maybe, just maybe, the changes were.... gasp deserved? I know it's a bold idea, but entertain it a little.

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