Remove the slow from Jayce's melee Q

FalconPawwwwnch·Nov 16, 2016·104 votes·3,705 views

He already has a speedboost, a hard CC, and a gap closer

He doesn't need to also slow you when he knocks you back and runs away

64 Comments

Fly Fish MasterNov 16, 201633 votes

The whole reason why he has all that stuff is because he has no real ult. The same goes for Elise, Udyr, and Nidalee.

Avios1Nov 16, 201610 votes

None of those champions have nearly as much disengage power as Jayce.

HammermancerNov 16, 20166 votes

{quoted}

None of those champions have nearly as much disengage power as Jayce.

The slow isn't primarily for disengage, it's for stick, usually by the time your q lands your movespeed buff is already gone, This would essentially make his W>R>Q>aa>W>aa>E combo less relevant for sheen jayce, you'd essentially be forcing the champion to start building item 3025 or item 3022 to use one of his most important combos, which is more important now with the way that fervor stacks with melee vs ranged attacks

edit

nidalee has loads of disengage power, she has rylais which is the same exact slow power and duration, and she has the ability to.... pounce away [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Pierce The VealNov 16, 20168 votes

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d5306VoQ,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-16T21:09:53.634+0000)

The slow isn't primarily for disengage, it's for stick, usually by the time your q lands your movespeed buff is already gone, This would essentially make his W>R>Q>aa>W>aa>E combo less relevant for sheen jayce, you'd essentially be forcing the champion to start building or to use one of his most important combos, which is more important now with the way that fervor stacks with melee vs ranged attacks

edit

nidalee has loads of disengage power, she has rylais which is the same exact slow power and duration, and she has the ability to.... pounce away [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Point is you get knocked away and you can't run away or re-engage even if you want to because of the slow which you don't need to build an item for.

HammermancerNov 16, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Point is you get knocked away and you can't run away or re-engage even if you want to because of the slow which you don't need to build an item for.

Uhh no, you need that slow, it's in his power budget and has never been the source of him having a power spike.

His recent buffs were to the mana cost on his E, and the damage on his passive, I maintain that when they swapped the ap scaling of his passive from 40% AP to 40% ad that they didn't actually factor in how much AD jayce can safely build due to his half-marksmen nature.

the issue isn't his frankly shitty slow that he can use once every 6 seconds but would never use it that frequently because he could be swapping out his rotation, its the fact that they overcompensated when they gave him a needed buff, they need to tone down the buff, not start ripping parts out of his kit. This is like advocating for Brand to lose his stun

Pierce The VealNov 17, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d5306VoQ,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-16T21:45:05.366+0000)

Uhh no, you need that slow, it's in his power budget and has never been the source of him having a power spike.

His recent buffs were to the mana cost on his E, and the damage on his passive, I maintain that when they swapped the ap scaling of his passive from 40% AP to 40% ad that they didn't actually factor in how much AD jayce can safely build due to his half-marksmen nature.

the issue isn't his frankly shitty slow that he can use once every 6 seconds but would never use it that frequently because he could be swapping out his rotation, its the fact that they overcompensated when they gave him a needed buff, they need to tone down the buff, not start ripping parts out of his kit. This is like advocating for Brand to lose his stun

Of course we'd be complaining about removing stuff out of a ranged champion's kit but when it comes to assassins don't worry we can rip their whole kit out and that would be fine.

No man. You're wrong. The slow makes him fucking oppressive to play against because it means he makes you a sitting duck, perfect for him to apply that newly buffed passive and switch forms and shoot you while you can't run or get back on him.

Seriously though, comparing a slow on a champion with another hard cc to a champion's only form of cc, which happens to be a hard cc? Oh hey let me compare ashe ult to the slow on Kha'zix's passive that makes sense.

General Esdeath Nov 17, 20163 votes

disengage

Who said it was for disengage?

VERTEXLongNov 17, 20161 votes

personally when I play jayce I don't use his q(H) for disengage maybe it's cause I'm just high silver but my normal combo without cannon form ready is [W>Q(aa)>E] end combo/trade as for when I have cannon form read after hammer and enough mana it's same as previous except with the addition of ["">W(C){aa}>Q>E] the reason why I use Q first instead of hyper gate is the suspense feature/the increased consistency of landing the empowered q I'm just rambling at this point lmao but for the most part I agree with you if anything his e is his disengage tool unless you use his q(H) to jump to a minion behind you which is almost never then that makes it a disengage tool lmao

HammermancerNov 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

unless you use his q(H) to jump to a minion behind you which is almost never then that makes it a disengage tool lmao

That's what I do..... But to use it as a disengage after an all-in is like "Hey... i didn't build bruiser, can i last for 5 seconds?"

and just like my sex life.... no i can't last for 5 seconds if i went all in, that's why i have to burst hard before then so my opponent goes down

... ...... ......... ...........

Ok but seriously, you only Q to disengage when you're escaping a gank or you just pulled some dirty snipe and you got 4 chasing you, ghostblade is down, theres a fucking fed trundle coming up on you, oh shit trundle plz no, trundle plz. trunnndlle whyyy and you're freaking out and you use E before he lands an auto so his dead man's plate is still maxed out and you're like nononononononononononononononono

and then you q to blue buff over the wall

SqueyNov 17, 20161 votes

And NONE of those champs have balance issues right? NONE of them have been pick / ban with there broken kits off and on (mostly on) since they went live.
Nidalee - always been a problem champ from 1 shoting u with q to her current state Elise - always been a top jungler and even when nerfed she finds her way back Udyr - every time items change he usually finds something to make himself crazy mode with Jayce - always been strong but isnt always in meta so riot buffs him so he doesnt need to be in meta

All champs "balanced" around not having an ult have always been at the top of the broken list

DroogzyNov 17, 20161 votes

Nidalee sure, she's been problematic, but that stems more from unhealthy kit behind her Q, not because of her transform. The transform is just icing on the cake for her issues.

Elise was literally trash tier/bottom of the barrel borderline considered troll pick for majority for season 5. She's also currently below average as well in this current jungle set up due to lack of AoE camp clear outside of a single ability.

Udyr had literally only one patch, and one patch only where he was overbearing with runic echo, which is what I assume you're referring to. Even at the height of FF he was average at best since he could still get kited into tomorrow.

KingKong2350Nov 17, 20161 votes

I never understood the Elise trash tier talk in season 5. Thats when I balled outrageous with her but I guess I never played high level so thers that

MorgManBasherNov 17, 20166 votes

How about we just revert the buffs instead of trying to rape his kit? I want to go back to going bruiser jayce.

item 3025 item 3068 item 3071 item 3111 item 3053 item 3072

OelykNov 18, 20161 votes

As much as I like that build... Blood thirst is not a good enough Item... Have you seen PKB Dovahs tank crusher jayce video? you should watch it!

HammermancerNov 16, 20164 votes

I would really like to state that I do think he needs to be toned down, but i don't think removing that utility is the right option, it's like removing one of rivens dashes in her q, he really needs it. He is a combo based champion, and i would argue is more like riven than he is like Nidalee or Elise.

I know the champion, i know how to counter him, i know what to pick against him.

A. you can stun him before he uses that disengage, if you're gonna face him mid take exhaust over ignite

B. He has strong disengage and stick, so don't pick melee against him, if you have to pick first, then build early armor and health, jayce only has 1 % hp move which for its cooldown isn't that great, the rest of his damage vs tanks relies completely on armor pen or MASSIVE ad, so he'll have to counter build you to beat you

C. He can be ganked if you know how to approach it. Jg waits in tri, when he uses his q then go in, he can only knock back one target, when people build the normal build on him he's really squishy and likely wont have much if any lifesteal

D. Armor again... seriously... armor

E. Armor

F. force him to burn all his mana, tear isn't meta on jayce right now for a good reason, it gimps his early game and he's not a hypercarry outside of very specific builds, if he builds tear early he has sacrificed damage.

G. Randuin's omen is perfect against him, it's a slow, save it for when you gonna kill him.

H. If he builds defences just build more defences

LuaDotExeNov 16, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d5306VoQ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-11-16T21:39:34.619+0000)

I would really like to state that I do think he needs to be toned down, but i don't think removing that utility is the right option, it's like removing one of rivens dashes in her q, he really needs it. He is a combo based champion, and i would argue is more like riven than he is like Nidalee or Elise.

I know the champion, i know how to counter him, i know what to pick against him.

A. you can stun him before he uses that disengage, if you're gonna face him mid take exhaust over ignite

B. He has strong disengage and stick, so don't pick melee against him, if you have to pick first, then build early armor and health, jayce only has 1 % hp move which for its cooldown isn't that great, the rest of his damage vs tanks relies completely on armor pen or MASSIVE ad, so he'll have to counter build you to beat you

C. He can be ganked if you know how to approach it. Jg waits in tri, when he uses his q then go in, he can only knock back one target, when people build the normal build on him he's really squishy and likely wont have much if any lifesteal

D. Armor again... seriously... armor

E. Armor

F. force him to burn all his mana, tear isn't meta on jayce right now for a good reason, it gimps his early game and he's not a hypercarry outside of very specific builds, if he builds tear early he has sacrificed damage.

G. Randuin's omen is perfect against him, it's a slow, save it for when you gonna kill him.

H. If he builds defences just build more defences

Well, Armor doesn't always fix Jayce problems; his first auto when switching to Mercury Hammer does 20/60/100/140(+40% Bonus AD) bonus magic damage. And his E in Mercury Hammer does 8/10.4/12.8/15.2/17.6/20% of the targets maximum health, plus 100% of Jayce's Bonus AD-- in magic damage. Lightning Field also does 100/160/220/280/340/400(+100% AP) magic damage over 4 seconds. Yes, a lot of his damage is physical, but a decent bit of it is also magical. Not to mention first auto in Mercury Cannon lowers resistances by 10/15/20/25% for 5 seconds.

OelykNov 16, 20165 votes

I disagree, Champions with short cool down gapclosers and strong duelers counter him pretty well. AKA Fiora and Irelia beat him up pretty well, also Olaf(oh god not olaf) is incredibly strong against him. Not all melees are weak against jayce.

Auz the RipperNov 17, 20162 votes

Nocturne also does pretty well against him, although there are only like three of us that take him top lane. I love spellshields

OelykNov 18, 20161 votes

I actually play nocturne top... I think his early game is pretty insane! his level two is insane cheese. I mean, in theory you get qw so huge AS and huge AD buff from other level two's, plus you can negate one of their two spells to give more AS, its insane.

NineTailedMysticNov 17, 20162 votes

Armor isn't the end all be all. I've gotten ass blasted as Taric, and it's because Jayce has a shit load of Magic Damage in his kit that scales off of his AD.

Jinzo TorranceNov 17, 20161 votes

"Shit load of Magic damage" as in one single target spell and one melee AA after switching stance? Damn

NineTailedMysticNov 17, 20161 votes

Lightning Field as well, not to mention that 'one single target spell' does 20% Max HP Magic Damage rank 5.

HammermancerNov 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Lightning Field as well, not to mention that 'one single target spell' does 20% Max HP Magic Damage rank 5.

He has no ult... NO ULT

Not a single ult

six ults

NineTailedMysticNov 19, 20161 votes

Yes, in exchange for no ultimate he has an exceedingly oppressive laning phase.

OelykNov 18, 20161 votes

... Are you serious? a "shit load" implies a lot(as in ahri a lot), Reality is his lightning field DOES NOT scale of AD, and his first hammer form of a full build jayce will only do about 300 magic damage once on the first unit hit. The scaling in 50% bonus AD. Its actually a full build jayce if he hit you once with auto and then somehow got the entire w off (which for damage per mana ratios completely suck) your not gonna even hurt.

KensueNov 16, 20164 votes

[deleted]

SpreekNov 16, 20169 votes

{quoted}

There is nothing wrong with Jayce though. All of these champions to complain about and you chose a crappy slow the only balanced ranged top laner.

Oh look that passive might as well be crits, and what's with her slow when it already cancels channels and dashes?

This lightning squirrel can melt you while stunning you like 3 times.

This idiot here gets a free range attack, while canceling other range attacks, and completely shielding an entire attack that you would use to start your combo. Not to mention he dashes around so much that he might as well be ranged because he can Q > Auto you and dash away before you can get a second auto off on him, then uses the small range of his Q to hit you again because it outranges most top laners, and then on his way out he just hits you with the dang tornado and jumps back to you with his ult to repeat the process and you die.

Why are you complaining about Jayce when this guy exists? Just play him and you'll start winning like 80% more.

Jayce is balanced and quinn is OP?

LOL

JVlasterQuinnNov 16, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Jayce is balanced and quinn is OP?

LOL

Quinn isn't OP, as a Quinn main i can confirm, a decent Jayce, shit on Quinn, her only real chance to do something is roam and provide global presence, laning speaking Jayce can poke from afar and just destroy her if she get too close. I personally hate Jayce . She is strong against Melee but other range have their hand on her quite easily, i find myself beleiving she should be buffed to her adc role instead of being pushed more on ranged second teemo.. but it's my opinion.

OelykNov 16, 20162 votes

Quick tip to fuck up Jayce's day. E him when he's in hammer q frontflip of amazingness. It not only will cancel it, but also misposition him from your ranged bull ****ery for some free poke because he's in hammer form. Its not actually that hard... It has nearly a whole second(.7s) of channel time(while doing pro acrobatics).

JVlasterQuinnNov 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lazy cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d5306VoQ,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-16T23:36:33.887+0000)

Quick tip to fuck up Jayce's day. E him when he's in hammer q frontflip of amazingness. It not only will cancel it, but also misposition him from your ranged bull ****ery for some free poke because he's in hammer form. Its not actually that hard... It has nearly a whole second(.7s) of channel time(while doing pro acrobatics).

I usually use it but you know Jayce is on 24/7 ranged mode. He go on hammer when 100% sure to assassinate you.

HammermancerNov 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I usually use it but you know Jayce is on 24/7 ranged mode. He go on hammer when 100% sure to assassinate you.

Then that indicates to me that his power is to heavily focused on his Ranged mode, if he's supposed to be balanced between the two

JVlasterQuinnNov 18, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d5306VoQ,comment-id=000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-17T18:11:36.607+0000)

Then that indicates to me that his power is to heavily focused on his Ranged mode, if he's supposed to be balanced between the two

That i know, they need to tone down his range mode to switch to melee.

OelykNov 18, 20161 votes

Ranged and Melees are pretty different in terms of identity, and the thing is that Hammer form is really really weak right now, even if he can cast all his skills, it doesn't change the fact that he's squishy and relatively inmobile, his gap closer can be dodged and it can only be cast on targets. In retrospect, his Hammer is unsafe, but a lot of extra damage, hence makes him powerful in 1v1 where his damage is strong from the start, but weak in team-fights where he cant access all his damage. They would have to really tone down ranged and really buff hammer to even make it remotely possible for hammer cannon balance due to innate ranged vs melee, and how his kit works.

wiggywonkaNov 17, 20164 votes

no. removing the slow would trash jayce because he cant go in front and knock them backwards which is one of his signature moves. also his "extra ms" comes from his e which has a really long cd and is primarily used as a damage enhancer.

SniperkajNov 16, 20163 votes

Serioulsy, STFU about Jayce. You will only be happy when he has no abilities at all, and no ranged attacks... L2P against him, ban him, or simply uninstall the game. Don't get me wrong... Jayce could use a nerf, but all the BS u has suggested to nerf is things Jayce has that makes him less feast-or-famine. You are not qualified for a Jayce nerf discussion, you bring only blind hate towards the champion.

GULAG 4 UNov 16, 20161 votes

what is L2P?

RyuyahNov 17, 20162 votes

learn 2 play

GULAG 4 UNov 17, 20162 votes

Okay, thank you.

ryan4winNov 17, 20163 votes

No, it is his only slow. he needs it

PayaThePapayaNov 17, 20163 votes

Without the slow, Jayce has terrible stick post q. I wouldn't mind the slow removal if Jayce landed on top of his target but he lands pretty far behind the target, making it almost impossible to get an autoattack off without doing some walking

MuddafragotNov 17, 20162 votes

A champ that can switch between ranged and melee doesn't need stick on top of mobility and hard cc.

PayaThePapayaNov 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

A champ that can switch between ranged and melee doesn't need stick on top of mobility and hard cc.

Unfortunately, you're wrong. If jayce starts his combo in ranged form, then uses his melee q to jump in, he loses all sticking potential if the slow is removed. The slow is barely enough to keep on top of them for a few autos and you're essentially just stalling for your ranged form to get back up. Without the slow, you're just going to be sitting there twiddling your thumbs for 4-5 seconds early game waiting for cannon form

MuddafragotNov 17, 20161 votes

Oh, yes, god forbid you don't get to pound someone's ass for five seconds straight and they have some time and room to work with while laning against you. If you don't get those three melee autos in, how will you ever burst them down with your speed gate and triple shots? It's almost like cd is supposed to keep you from doing whatever you want early game. And the slow is, of course, totally still necessary mid and late game, right?

PayaThePapayaNov 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Oh, yes, god forbid you don't get to pound someone's ass for five seconds straight and they have some time and room to work with while laning against you. If you don't get those three melee autos in, how will you ever burst them down with your speed gate and triple shots? It's almost like cd is supposed to keep you from doing whatever you want early game. And the slow is, of course, totally still necessary mid and late game, right?

Jayce has very clear and distinct weaknesses. He might be strong right now - a nerf may be necessary - but don't blame him being OP simply on his Q having a slow attached to it. His Q's landing is already complete ass

ryan4winNov 17, 20162 votes

I main jayce btw

OelykNov 18, 20161 votes

But you don't have an opinion?

Shame of a Jayce main.

I drop an Acceleration Gate and blast ‘em with a Hyper Charge. Face the future!

FriusNov 16, 20161 votes

late game his Q is like 4.8 S and slows for 2s

OelykNov 16, 20163 votes

In his early game its like 16 seconds. In late game its suicide 101 in teamfights.

Wolfram OxfordNov 17, 20161 votes

I don't agree with a lot of your posts but Jayce does need to be dealt with in some way, and I think hitting his early game power is the way to do it, it's just that I would hate to see his late game affected as well. Perhaps they should give his ultimate a longer CD early and make it cost MANA, probably some high number close to 100 so he doesn't bully 90% of the roster just because he can Q R Q AA at level 1 for about half of your HP.