Lethality being OP doesn't explain Quinn's absurd laning phase and 0 counterplay during it

FalconPawwwwnch·Feb 13, 2017·52 votes·4,581 views

Keep defending her as "only stupid because lethality"

her laning phase has been a problem since her release and it's the reason why she's one of the most toxic champs in the game

She was like this before her rework, she became even worse after her rework, and she has NEVER been addressed by Riot.

Just because Riot doesn't give a shit about giving melee champs counterplay in the laning phase doesn't mean Quinn isn't a stupidly designed champ

101 Comments

SkorchFeb 13, 201717 votes

Yeah Quinn top is annoying, but i wouldnt say 0 counterplay.

Sire HippingtonFeb 13, 201714 votes

When what exaclty is the counterplay for most melees vs her? She just harras with AAs that even get boosted by her passive every now and then, and unless you got one off the few champs with multiple engage tools, her E denys prettymuch any atempt to jump on her, and the slow on it alows for an easy Q that fucks you even more while the W speedbuff on her passive makes sure she can either chase you down when you retreat or keep kiteing efficiently should you try to chase her. If Quinn isn`t stupid enough to use her E agressively, there is **nothing **that the majority of melees can do vs her in lane.

SkorchFeb 13, 201724 votes

Not all counterplay comes from fighting. Counterbuilding, freezing lane, baiting e and kind of w.

The thing you have to understand is DONT FIGHT HER. If shes harassing punish her by making her focus you but lose farm. Or farm but not harass you so YOU can farm. as well. There are some matchups that are bad but people have some sort of stigma that every champ should be able to fight other champs on even ground.

If you want to play melee top pick Irelia or Fiora or Panth who can decently keep up with Quinn. Pick Trynd or Trundle and just outpush the utterhell out of her since she WILL roam to help (although she will get back fairly quickly.)

Or if you insist on picking a tank pick ones with tools like Maokai Poppy Nautilus who can get to her.

If you insist on picking champs like Darius Mordekaiser Yorick Illaoi YOU DONT DESERVE TO WIN LANE AGAINST HER IF SHE IS HALF DECENT.

She does have counterplay. People just dont call it like that because of A) its easier to say something has 0 counterplay than actually argue or B) They are too lazy to actually adapt methods.

KarhtelFeb 13, 20172 votes

This ^^^

SkorchFeb 13, 20173 votes

Im glad so many of you people are actually agreeing with this comment. Usually when i say things like this i get downvoted before i blink.

TheSingularityFeb 14, 20172 votes

^^ Kled absolutely wrecks this match-up. Even if she blinds you, you can track her with your Q and if you land your first E you nullify her only instant mobility spell

Death by KaynFeb 14, 20172 votes

Kled actually does pretty damn well against Quinn

XonraFeb 14, 20174 votes

IT doesn't matter who "does well" against her. 9 times out of 10 people pick her INTO a good matchup, and not just pick her blindly, so it usually doesn't matter who "does well". If you know you are going against her, chances are you aren't just picking a low to no range melee that can't kill her.

VenomarFeb 14, 20171 votes

Illaoi wouldn't be too bad. I've only played against her a few times top but I'd say she's much like Yasuo. If she fucks up even one time past 6, she's deader than dead.

Sexy Jack RabbitFeb 14, 20174 votes

Kinda applies to everyone though. Illaoi's level 6 powerspike is ILLAOI'S level 6 powerspike. Respect it or die tbh.

XonraFeb 14, 20176 votes

You can't just pick with the idea that every lane is going to be against a Quinn, and you also can't JUST build for laning phase either, unless you have a really really good late game and aren't way behind (which you will be as you won't be able to cs).

I'm not saying she is broken, but against Melees, you can't do much unless you for some dumb reason picked into her on purpose. I have full on built armor into her, doesn't matter, cause you can't do anything but sit under your turret as she will blind you out of even being able to cs at that point, then just roam like a second jungler.

It is just as easy to say "just build armor" which isn't a fix all, as it is easy to say she has no counter play. Neither are fully accurate.

SkorchFeb 14, 20171 votes

Youre right you CANT pick always assuming youre fighting quinn. But at the same time you need to know matchups for your champs.

When you lock in though even first pick you have to always think "What could they pick into me to make me have a bad day? Is it a popular champion?"

If she picks first you can counterpick her, some people i bet still pick weak matchups INTO quinn THEN complain. But if you DO get counterpicked you should understand that when you locked in your champ Quinn CAN fuck you.

Im not saying never pick a champ that cant lose vs Quinn. Im saying if she counterpicked you, understand that you WONT be able to fight her because THATS A COUNTERPICK. As i keep saying people have a stigma that no champion should have the upper hand going into a fight when gold and etc are even.

If you got counterpicked shit sucks, acknowledge you cant fight her. And freeze lane outside your turret. She'll poke you but it will be harder to kill you.

XonraFeb 15, 20171 votes

If you are only picking to make sure you won't have a bad matchup if you are first pick, then you probably just shouldn't play top. There is a counter for literally everything that can be played top as so much can and is played top. You are essentially saying "be omnipresent and act like you are in a pro game 100% of the time" which isn't realistic for multiple reasons.

And just saying, as well "you can't fight her" isn't really explaining or helping anything. You say it as if people that lose lane to her are TRYING to fight her, which usually isn't the case. Being ranged into melee, she can just harass and heavily poke you down any time you try to cs. If you are under tower she can still blind you so you miss cs. It isn't just "don't fight her". She can deny you cs really hard, push you under turret, deny you cs even under tower, then just roam.

Your responses are very much like "oh just do this this and this perfectly, then predict every counter pick, then just do nothing in lane, and it will be fine.".

SkorchFeb 15, 20171 votes

Im not saying understand and prevent every counterpick, im asking that if you DO get counterpicked, dont complain when you lose lane, ITS AN UPHILL STRUGGLE.

And you DONT have to do everything perfectly, a lot of stuff i recommended (while difficult) is doable. And lets not forget that NOT EVERY QUINN TOP IS GOD. People have varying skill levels, Not every Quinn can deal with everything you throw at her. Not every Quinn is perfect at harass. If you are fighting a Quinn that IS perfect (while not existing of course) Then she deserves to win. If someone plays perfectly they WILL win no matter what. Thats what perfect is.

Sire HippingtonFeb 14, 20176 votes

First off: Counterbuilding is NOT counterPLAY, same with counterpicking. Counterplay doesn`t stand for counter in generall, but for direct options in the MICRO-play to counteract your opponent. Picks, items and jungle ganks are MACRO-play.

And for your actuall counterplay ideas:

"Freezing lane." Really sherlock? Freeze lane vs a ranged champion as melee? Won't work well early because as soon as you try that, you open your self for easy harras from her and her minions, which hurts alot early on. And post 6, shes one of the best roamers in the game, freezing vs a strong roamer is hardly a good advice. _ "DONT FIGHT HER. _" Yea, that means you loose cs, lane preasure and allow her to preasure your tower or roam. Now, vs a lanebully that falls of, that's an reasonable approach as you deny a direct snowball and eventually outscale, but quinn scales pretty damn well her self, so thats not exactly ideal either.

"If shes harassing punish her by making her focus you but lose farm. Or farm but not harass you so YOU can farm." You seem to asume its a rather bad Quinn. A good Quinn has not much issues harrasing you while picking up cs at the same time. There are few champs that sustain vs harras well enough early on to force a choice between full harras and csing. And even then, she only needs to sacrifice a few cs till shes in a position to zone you while picking up CS.

Sorry, but it simply doesn't seem like you actually have seen a well played Quinn, as all your counterplay indicates a missplay on Quinns side.

Sp33d Zer0Feb 14, 20172 votes

Her vault puts her in melee which means you can silence/stun/root/ with a melee range ability

XonraFeb 14, 20175 votes

If she counter picks you (which is 99% of the time she is picked) she has no counter play. She just pokes you down, dives on you so turning to run just means free damage, and you can't turn to fight cause she blinds you.

There is no counter play to her when she is picked into melee, unless your jungler camps the shit out of her.

paisyFeb 13, 201711 votes

item 3047

drakuIa421Feb 14, 20171 votes

lethality

paisyFeb 14, 20172 votes

armor

Ambient SnowFeb 13, 20176 votes

I see Quinn go top,

I take Kayle..

Nuff said

THE RlVER KlNGFeb 13, 20177 votes

Kayle is just as if not more cancerous to lane against

McFatalFeb 14, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d4ZZH7zH,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-02-13T20:50:01.396+0000)

Kayle is just as if not more cancerous to lane against

compared to quinn kayle is a fucking kitten to play vs.

she has a slow and a simple ms boost.

you can STILL hit her once.

101100111000Feb 14, 20174 votes

Then she hits Level 6.

VoidStaresBackFeb 14, 20174 votes

You mean the champion with meh trading power if you can get on top of her, low relevance until two items, and who passively pushes the lane making her easy to gank?

RomtheguyFeb 14, 20174 votes

http://i.imgur.com/f7FdEdG.jpg Can confirm, pushing is inevitable as Kayle and she really needs items.

XonraFeb 14, 20175 votes

See, 9 times out of 10, I see Quinn go top, it is after I already picked and she countered me.

I have never (literally) seen anyone just blind pick Quinn. I only ever see her pick into other melee matchups. I don't know why people keep acting like "oh just play this champ", which I have quite literally never seen her played anything but cheese Quinn into melee champs she can bully in lane.

HigeFeb 13, 20176 votes

Riot knows this, they have acknowledged it on the past, they haven't nerf her because she isn't popular but... well, those days might be over now

Her kit is really oppressive against melees, they'll probably reduce harrier's damage only though

ForgiveColourFeb 13, 20175 votes

Yeah quinn is one of those champs that should be gutted so hard that she becomes unplayable

Ok sure but whyFeb 13, 20175 votes

It ain't that she has no counterplay; it's that she is counterplay, and she counterplays you counterplay

ArnoldSchwarzensFeb 14, 20173 votes

I've always found that aggressive divers and skirmishers are great at dealing with her. Irelia Camille Yasuo Fiora Jayce Pantheon Renekton Riven heck even MonkeyKing . They will get on top of her and burst/outmaneuver her before she can even react. They are also perfect for stopping her annoying splitpush.

Then there's also Teemo who seems to work wonders in lower elos and has a blind.

Death by KaynFeb 14, 20172 votes

You fail to mention the superior noxian meme

ARiveñFeb 14, 20173 votes

I disagree with riven being a good counter to quinn because of how hard it is to predict her e and cancel it and riven usually gets bursted quickly with the harrier aa vault harrier aa doing her entire hp bar and being a 7 second cd

FireDrizzleFeb 13, 20172 votes

If you e your ghouls onto her with yorick early, you get an even trade. Ranged champ can brawl with a juggernaut badly without being punished, that's fair!

Big LincolnFeb 13, 20172 votes

what if Quinn Es your E during the windup

what then, yorick

VoidStaresBackFeb 14, 20172 votes

Then it's trivial to trap her in dark procession, since her e is now on cooldown and it's her only way to escape. Similarly, if she uses her e on you to escape a trade in dark procession, you can nail her with your e and have your ghouls go to town on her.

Mourning mist also outranges Quinn's Vault and has an additional reach beyond the abilities range, meaning you can do it without fear of interruption if you get the ranges right.

PermabannedGarenFeb 13, 20172 votes

I can't justify hating on champions who are unbearably oppressive in lane but fall off the face of the earth late game like Quinn or Pantheon when there are champions like Kayle who bully at least nearly as hard in lane but also scale hard into late game.

With that said, she is scaling far too hard with the new lethality, as well as being more oppressive early, so she does need nerfs.

ArakadiaFeb 14, 20173 votes

Quinn falls off? Not imho.

She has really great roaming, works as an adc, can splitpush and duel like a god, and can sprint in at Mach 5 and burst anyone who got caught out.

PermabannedGarenFeb 14, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Quinn falls off? Not imho.

She has really great roaming

So does Pantheon. Like Pantheon, she uses that great roaming to bring her early lead to other lanes and get them fed, because she can't carry late from top lane with a top lane build, and frankly, "great roaming" is not a particularly important attribute late game.

works as an adc

She scales better if a solo ADC because she at least isn't weakening your frontline by virtue of existing, but she is one of the worst-scaling champions who can be played in the ADC role.

can splitpush and duel like a god

Lol? Late game this champion is free food for any actual duelist. I will tower dive and easily kill Quinn every time I see her late game as Master Yi or Tryndamere. Yasuo shits on her 1v1 late game, Jax does, Xin Zhao Nasus does, Vayne does, fucking Aatrox probably does.

She's all right at dueling and splitpushing as far as ADCs go, but if you want a late game splitpusher there are much better champions.

and can sprint in at Mach 5 and burst anyone who got caught out.

I mean, now you're repeating yourself. Also her burst is frankly inferior to, say, Talon's, judging by a quick glance at their numbers. She probably has an edge in sustained damage, but even in that she would be outclassed by someone like Yasuo in all likelihood, while also providing less CC and utility.

MiraweaveFeb 14, 20174 votes

{quoted}

So does Pantheon. Like Pantheon, she uses that great roaming to bring her early lead to other lanes and get them fed, because she can't carry late from top lane with a top lane build, and frankly, "great roaming" is not a particularly important attribute late game.

She scales better if a solo ADC because she at least isn't weakening your frontline by virtue of existing, but she is one of the worst-scaling champions who can be played in the ADC role.

Lol? Late game this champion is free food for any actual duelist. I will tower dive and easily kill Quinn every time I see her late game as Master Yi or Tryndamere. Yasuo shits on her 1v1 late game, Jax does, Xin Zhao Nasus does, Vayne does, fucking Aatrox probably does.

She's all right at dueling and splitpushing as far as ADCs go, but if you want a late game splitpusher there are much better champions.

I mean, now you're repeating yourself. Also her burst is frankly inferior to, say, Talon's, judging by a quick glance at their numbers. She probably has an edge in sustained damage, but even in that she would be outclassed by someone like Yasuo in all likelihood, while also providing less CC and utility.

I'm not sure Vayne actually beats quinn lategame. Assuming quinn properly plays around condemn and doesn't get stunned, she should be able to 100-0 vayne as soon as vayne leaves stealth.

Quinn's interaction with "other" adcs is weird because quinn isn't actually an ADC, she's an assassin.

PermabannedGarenFeb 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure Vayne actually beats quinn lategame. Assuming quinn properly plays around condemn and doesn't get stunned, she should be able to 100-0 vayne as soon as vayne leaves stealth.

Quinn's interaction with "other" adcs is weird because quinn isn't actually an ADC, she's an assassin.

There is probably not a single assassin in the entire game that can 1v1 a six item Vayne. Quinn is no exception.

Tychusfindlay919Feb 14, 20174 votes

{quoted}

There is probably not a single assassin in the entire game that can 1v1 a six item Vayne. Quinn is no exception.

Fairly certain khazix can burst her before she retaliates, and he has his own stealth too to keep her from fighting back.

Snowman ArcFeb 14, 20172 votes

Funny, I rarely ever see Quinn top lane. Last time I saw her was when they reworked her when she was FotM. I don't think she's much of a problem, just pick any fighter into her like Irelia, Riven, Jax, Fiora and it shouldn't be that hard.

XonraFeb 14, 20173 votes

I only ever see her as a cheese counter to melees, and she just bullies. I never see her otherwise. The problem is when she is picked as a counter, you just aren't gonna win lane. It's a fact.

SmitemuffinFeb 13, 20171 votes

I dunno, I played Jax into quinn top and it was easy. You just have to pick your trades and know how to farm against a ranged champ as melee. It's easy. Once you get item 3057 , your lane is won. Hit 6 and she can't be anywhere within your leap range of you for the rest of the game. Hit 2 minions, Q>auto>W>E and leave

ValyrianBladeFeb 14, 20175 votes

{quoted}

I dunno, I played into quinn top and it was easy. You just have to pick your trades and know how to farm against a ranged champ as melee. It's easy. Once you get , your lane is won. Hit 6 and she can't be anywhere within your leap range of you for the rest of the game. Hit 2 minions, Q>auto>W>E and leave

As someone who plays Quinn, Jax is one of her easiest match-ups. She can split against him at all stages of the game. A good Quinn will deny your leap engage with her E before you can get on her. There's a reason she has over a 60% win rate against Jax (and he's always been one of her most favourable matchups).

VoidStaresBackFeb 14, 20176 votes

That matchup is pretty much "is the Quinn good? Yes? Quinn wins. No? Jax wins."

XonraFeb 14, 20173 votes

No it is more "Is the Quinn playing the game? Yes. Quinn wins. Is Quinn afk? Guess Jax wins for now"

MiraweaveFeb 14, 20171 votes

She's overpowered because of how well she works with Lethality. Other than that, her laning phase is insane but she falls off: there are a lot of champions in this game with that power curve.