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Can we get some Sona buffs?

only zhule··16 votes·1,964 views

Or probably the more healthy choice, could ADC's have less sustain during laning phase? It's bad enough that i'm a super slow champion with no gap closer, my healing is a joke until i pick up like 2 items for bonus healing/shields, i have no hard CC, and the second lowest health stat in the game (just behind Anivia ). Heck i'll even take the damage nerf her Q got in stride. Might even be able to stomach the 33% increase in cost, at level 1, her only offensive skill received. But could i at least be able to grind enemies out when they have no healer/shielder, and i provide rather constant pressure (when Q is up). You don't want Sona to be a hyper lane bully who has to fail miserably to run OOM, whom then transitions into a hyper sustain / utility support. You fixed the issue where Sona basically never ran out of mana despite spamming poke. You fixed the issue where item 3504 basically made Sona a walking 7th item for her teammates. Can she PLEASE have a positive effect on the game during the first 25 mins.

23 Comments

Ayanami3rd2 votes

Before pre-season, nobody complained about Sona. Then Riot screwed up the game with the new base stats, the removal of old runes and implementation of Kleptomancy. And instead of fixing their new stuff, they neutered Sona. How professional.

Sona as such is still okay-ish, but Klepto is now mandatory. Which is ridiculous since they introduced Runes Reforged with the claim to give you a "more diverse playstyle".

OnlyYouCanHearMe1 votes

Would you like the truth? Or shall I tell you my embittered ranting as a Sona main? At my best last season, I had an 83% win rate on her. Thanks to the nerfs, I ended with a 68% win rate. And I've had to resort to playing Janna in many of my placements so far just because of how un-viable she is in so many situations.

They have a tiny buff coming to her in patch 8.2, and by tiny, I mean tiny. They are partially reverting the mana cost increase on her Q.

Hymn Of Valor (Q) cost lowered from 60/65/70/75/80 to 50/55/60/65/70

As you can see, it's not a huge buff. It's not even completely overturning the mana cost nerf, and they aren't touching the damage nerf, or any of the previous nerfs to her W, her base AD or her base armor. However, I think you will find that when you combine it with the sightstone removal changes, it's actually going to have a pretty decent effect on her. It ends up being 800 gold that you don't have to immediately put out into wards/health. I was skeptical at first that it would be of any benefit for the squishy supports, since the added health tended to be a good thing for us, but I've been playing with it on the PBE and it's pretty nice. It lets you get up to a first item faster, which really does begin to make a difference for a champion like Sona who is so item dependent now.

Course... they are looking at hitting kleptomancy and manaflow band, so don't get too excited. #bittersonamain

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

Would you like the truth? Or shall I tell you my embittered ranting as a Sona main? At my best last season, I had an 83% win rate on her. Thanks to the nerfs, I ended with a 68% win rate. And I've had to resort to playing Janna in many of my placements so far just because of how un-viable she is in so many situations.

They have a tiny buff coming to her in patch 8.2, and by tiny, I mean tiny. They are partially reverting the mana cost increase on her Q.

As you can see, it's not a huge buff. It's not even completely overturning the mana cost nerf, and they aren't touching the damage nerf, or any of the previous nerfs to her W, her base AD or her base armor. However, I think you will find that when you combine it with the sightstone removal changes, it's actually going to have a pretty decent effect on her. It ends up being 800 gold that you don't have to immediately put out into wards/health. I was skeptical at first that it would be of any benefit for the squishy supports, since the added health tended to be a good thing for us, but I've been playing with it on the PBE and it's pretty nice. It lets you get up to a first item faster, which really does begin to make a difference for a champion like Sona who is so item dependent now.

Course... they are looking at hitting kleptomancy and manaflow band, so don't get too excited. #bittersonamain

Honestly i think if the nerf ADC sustain it would go a LONG way to fixing the issues she has. Sona's thing for a long time was slowly grinding out a damage advantage against the enemy (at least how i always saw her played). So long as i can actually put lasting damage on the enemy, i think she will work fine. But the current set up, it feels like i do 200-350 damage and the ADC has gotten back 70%+ of it by the time my damage ability is back up.

OnlyYouCanHearMe2 votes

Pretty much. She can't do enough poke against the targon's+runed adc for it to stick, so she's not a poke champion anymore. And she's a healer who can't really heal without the addition of at least 2 items.

When I first started playing League, the mantra was always "A kill lane is countered by a poke lane, a poke lane is countered by a sustain lane, a sustain lane is countered by a kill lane." And at the time, Sona could go poke or sustain, depending on what you needed to max. Now? It doesn't matter what you max, you can't really fit into either one well.

UnboundHades3 votes

Only a 68% winrate? God thats so bad gotta buff her

OnlyYouCanHearMe1 votes

That's dropping 15%, for someone who has played the champion since Season 3. Zhule and I are mains, not sure if he/she considers themselves a one-trick or not, but Sona is at least 85-90% of what I play. To see my ability to effectively support my team basically destroyed is not only frustrating, it's scary. I've had to change my runes 3 times since these new ones rolled out, completely change my items, and learn an entirely different playstyle, which tends to be one that I don't enjoy playing. She feels almost like a different champion now because of how weak she is.

UnboundHades2 votes

If you have a wr thats 18 percent over the average you dont need a buff it doesnt matter if your wr dropped from stupid af as a support to good for a otp

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

If you have a wr thats 18 percent over the average you dont need a buff it doesnt matter if your wr dropped from stupid af as a support to good for a otp

The issue is no what one person's personal win rate is. It's the fact that Sona effectively does nothing but hold her team back during the early game. It's on thing for Sona not to be meta. It's fine if Sona has a less then 50% win rate during the early game, provided her late game win rate compensates. All that said a below 40% win rate in the early game is unacceptable.

in my mind a hard engage meta should account for maybe 2-3% win rate on a champion who is only picked 2.75% of the time. ADC's who can close gaps and punish Sona's low health pool, another 1-2%. Hell lets tack on another 1-2% loss due to her most recent nerfs making it harder to keep pressure on a lane. Worst case that should put her at a 43% win rate. She has about at 38.75% win rate at the time of me typing this.

Orreos1 votes

^^100% this. I've also one-tricked Sona for 3 seasons now and have over 1,000,000 mastery--personal winrate is irrelevant due to so many different factors. The fact that you contribute next to nothing to your team until mid-late game as a support is the glaring issue.

DatAsheFeelsGood2 votes

@UnboundHades that's a personal 68% win rate, the overall win rate is 49% rn.

It's easy to have a high personal win rate by smurfing or only playing a small pool of games. it's the overall win rate that matters.

That being said, her win rate is blow 68 other champions http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/ .

and while that may not sound terrible, when you consider that her champion design is such that she's supposed to ALWAYS be a reliable pick (hence the lack of skillshots), but not always the best pick, hence rarely seeing her picked in the LCS.

hoyohai1 votes

So isn't her winrate perfect then? It's like right in the middle of all of the champions

only zhule3 votes

{quoted}

So isn't her winrate perfect then? It's like right in the middle of all of the champions

Her pre 25 min win rate needs work, 38.75% win rate is WAY to low. I think anything between 48-52% is fine, not useless not over powered.

Orreos1 votes

To reiterate what Zhule said, her overall winrate comes out to 48%. That's after suffering through a sub 40% early game where you're stuck trying to survive lane. The problem lies with the fact that she has a 17% discrepancy between early and late game, which is way bigger than even the most quintessential hard-scaling champs like Veigar or Nasus.

Draehl1 votes

It's the meta more than her IMO. She's so squishy for her range and building offtank doesn't matter with the huge damage flying around from nearly every champ you go splat anyway no matter what you build. I main Bard and prefer playing him as an offtank/mid-liner and am currently quite frustrated with him- yeah, he's got some electrocute cheese burst early on, but I think he does better with longer fights to leverage his short cooldowns and CC. Sona is similar. Cut this stupid level of burst from the new runes and she will be in a good spot IMO.

only zhule3 votes

{quoted}

It's the meta more than her IMO. She's so squishy for her range and building offtank doesn't matter with the huge damage flying around from nearly every champ you go splat anyway no matter what you build. I main Bard and prefer playing him as an offtank/mid-liner and am currently quite frustrated with him- yeah, he's got some electrocute cheese burst early on, but I think he does better with longer fights to leverage his short cooldowns and CC. Sona is similar. Cut this stupid level of burst from the new runes and she will be in a good spot IMO.

As i have said in other messages. I don't think it's burst that is hurting her, i think it's sustain. It's one thing to loss to ADC + Soraka or ADC + Nami , or basically any champion with a good ability to sustain their ally. It's another thing to loose to a Leona or Thresh not because you got caught, but because the ADC's healing/ sustain per second, via auto attacks, is just a hair below your damage per second with a full spell rotation. Or in other words, " i win the trade if we do it every 8 seconds, you win if we do it every 12"

zero3561 votes

Personal opinion and it may just be my ELO But I've been able to poke through double targon/Fleet Footwork lanes as Sona, forcing them out or killing In fact, the fact that everyone is being so passive in lane makes Sona's job even easier because there is usually little to no retaliation

Again, maybe it's just my ELO (Silver II after placements)

As an aside, Sona just needs an actual rework from someone who cares about her as a champ But that's not the main point here

LOSINGISMYPRIDE1 votes

She already has two big buff . [slayer-jinx-wink]

ChuShoe1 votes

Can we just nerf everybody else? I honestly think Sona is okay right now, and everyone else needs to step down to her level.

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

Can we just nerf everybody else? I honestly think Sona is okay right now, and everyone else needs to step down to her level.

If we can get a nerf to ADC sustain during the lane phase, there is a good chance Sona doesn't need buffs; would have to see what that looks like before saying for sure. If Riot won't nerf the early sustain, Sona needs buffs to compensate for the new meta.

I would rather see a round of nerfs for everyone else then buffs for Sona. Would be nice if the game slowed down a hair, so that champions designed to grind out their opponents had a better chance to do that instead of this current focus on burst.

hhaavviikk1 votes

how about we rework her first? sona shouldn't be strong because when she's strong she lacks the same counterplay as ADC's because you can't dodge or outplay auto targeted abilities/right click

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

how about we rework her first? sona shouldn't be strong because when she's strong she lacks the same counterplay as ADC's because you can't dodge or outplay auto targeted abilities/right click

Maybe that works. i've never managed to find someone who can give me a good idea for how she should be reworked. I keep hearing the "just make her Invoker from DOTA" i think this would over complicate her.

I addressed the issues of simply changing her Q from auto target to skillshot. TL:DR version is that she either does WAY more damage or she gets wave clear. I have zero idea how one would change the effects of her W or E while keeping the same core idea for them.

RedCyclone1 votes

Basic game knowledge is enough for anyone to counter Sona

Her effective range to have impact is 550 and almost every champion in the game can fight back at that range, it is also common knowledge that CC destroys Sona and catching 1 stun with her even at full HP can easily lead to a death

People act like Sona has been a problem all this time, however even when she was chilling at 54% winrate during the Ardent meta, absolutely no one was complaining about Sona, no one complained when she has been at a 52% average for the last 5 or so years Only when she becomes overpowered due to certain changes people act like she has always been that way, stop chatting shit

Sure, Sona could use a rework and many Sona mains want her skill expression broadened, but that is no excuse to force a champion to be bad when past experience shows that Sona can be a good pick while not being overpowered That's just condemning a champion to be bad for the sake of keeping them from being a good pick

hhaavviikk1 votes

{quoted}

Basic game knowledge is enough for anyone to counter Sona

Her effective range to have impact is 550 and almost every champion in the game can fight back at that range, it is also common knowledge that CC destroys Sona and catching 1 stun with her even at full HP can easily lead to a death

People act like Sona has been a problem all this time, however even when she was chilling at 54% winrate during the Ardent meta, absolutely no one was complaining about Sona, no one complained when she has been at a 52% average for the last 5 or so years Only when she becomes overpowered due to certain changes people act like she has always been that way, stop chatting shit

Sure, Sona could use a rework and many Sona mains want her skill expression broadened, but that is no excuse to force a champion to be bad when past experience shows that Sona can be a good pick while not being overpowered That's just condemning a champion to be bad for the sake of keeping them from being a good pick

it's not because basic game knowledge won't allow you to outplay her abilities, her abilities will hit you no matter what you do, just like how an ADC's autoattacks will hit you no matter what you do, in my eyes sona has always been a problem due to the lack of counterplay inherent to her kit, why do you think people keep screaming lack of counterplay about adc's? because they don't involve having any skillshots and so when they're strong the only counterplay is outdpsing them which isn't fun, there is no outplaying an ADC's right clicks, there is no being smart and avoiding some damage to win a battle, there is just CC'ing them or winning the stats battle, same with sona, her Q/W/E and AA cannot be avoided, they cannot be outsmarted or outplayed, all you can do is deal more damage than her or outdamage her heals, there's no counterplay in that.

I want to keep sona weak for the sake of giving her a rework due to her lack of counterplay, point & click and auto targeted abilities inherently lack counterplay and should be reworked, pantheon being another prime example of that

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