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Should they replace (or remove) the AP scaling of non-hybrids?

The Ecdysiast··1 votes·774 views

There are a quite few champions who, for a while now since Trinity Force hasn't had AP since preseason 5, make no sense to have AP scalings. Especially those who can't effectively use Guinsoo's Rageblade. Or even just tanks who aren't effective building it in the first place.

That would be: Ashe Gangplank DrMundo Fiora Gnar Jayce Jhin Jinx Rengar Shen Sion Skarner TahmKench Twitch Volibear

There may be more, but these are the ones that stood out to me who have no possible effective build for AP outside of featured game modes, assuming they're against evenly matched enemy players.

I think they should either have the AP scaling replaced with a lesser AD scaling, or simply have it removed and replaced with higher bases at later levels. But to have a stat the champion can't effectively build doesn't make sense when the the other 90% of champions aren't gimped in that way.

The thematic defense doesn't work, because there are so many examples of the abilities that seem magic scaling AD and vice-versa. Riven's Ultimate, Ali's, Akali's, and Kat's entire kits, etc.

The "having no scaling looks weird" defense doesn't hold up, either, because having the wrong scaling for the kit looks a hell of a lot weirder.

And considering that many of these champions are underperforming, the claim that there's no power budget alotted to their AP scaling is missing its premise. To be able to say no power is budgeted into an extremely high AP scaling, you'd first have to have a champion who, without being able to buy any AP, is still performing at 50% or above.

7 Comments

iiGazeii3 votes

Some AP scalings are there for "thematic" reasons. Even though the champion builds AD primarily, some magic-like abilities make sense to have AP scaling.

For the most part, they're still in the game because of Baron buff. It doesn't give adaptive force, or a percentile increase to whatever you built like Infernal - it gives flat AD and AP. Champions with those weird hybrid scalings do better with Baron buff than other champions.

They aren't "gimped" by those scalings, they're basically a ribbon. Little to no power budget is tied up in there.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Some AP scalings are there for "thematic" reasons. Even though the champion builds AD primarily, some magic-like abilities make sense to have AP scaling.

For the most part, they're still in the game because of Baron buff. It doesn't give adaptive force, or a percentile increase to whatever you built like Infernal - it gives flat AD and AP. Champions with those weird hybrid scalings do better with Baron buff than other champions.

They aren't "gimped" by those scalings, they're basically a ribbon. Little to no power budget is tied up in there.

Not really though. Not when many magic-like abilities scale AD and many clearly physical abilities scale AP. Galio's punch, Alistar's entire kit, Katarina's entire kit, etc. It's clearly not a point they try to make.

The thing you used to defend it is exactly the reason there is power budget tied up there.

Moonscourge1 votes

{quoted}

Not really though. Not when many magic-like abilities scale AD and many clearly physical abilities scale AP. Galio's punch, Alistar's entire kit, Katarina's entire kit, etc. It's clearly not a point they try to make.

The thing you used to defend it is exactly the reason there is power budget tied up there.

So you want that tiny amount of budget to be allocated to AD, making it absolutely meaningless like 10% bonus AD? Because that's as high as it could get for let's say Ashe ult. Nah fam, don't fix what ain't broke.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snake of Avarice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d3ahqufk,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-02-10T07:32:10.333+0000)

So you want that tiny amount of budget to be allocated to AD, making it absolutely meaningless like 10% bonus AD? Because that's as high as it could get for let's say Ashe ult. Nah fam, don't fix what ain't broke.

That wouldn't be meaningless. That'd be similar to what it was with Trinity's little bit of AP. That's exactly what I'm asking for.

iiGazeii1 votes

I said "some". Not all. Many of them work that way for balance reasons. Alistair is usually played as a support, and there isn't a good support item that gives AD, so his kit scales with AP.

We know that there is very little power budget tied into thesehybrid scalings is because many of these champions are still strong without going hybrid. They aren't worse off for never building one stat or the other. There's no significant power budget being spent there, because if there was, their optimal builds would have at least a splash of the other stat. They don't. Most of these champions aren't missing out on anything by not building one of those stats, and for others it opens up the possibility of running an off-meta build and having some fun with it. The benefits are small, almost insignificant.

It adds build variety, makes baron buff slightly more valuable, and ultimately doesn't hurt anything. It doesn't need to get changed.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

I said "some". Not all. Many of them work that way for balance reasons. Alistair is usually played as a support, and there isn't a good support item that gives AD, so his kit scales with AP.

We know that there is very little power budget tied into thesehybrid scalings is because many of these champions are still strong without going hybrid. They aren't worse off for never building one stat or the other. There's no significant power budget being spent there, because if there was, their optimal builds would have at least a splash of the other stat. They don't. Most of these champions aren't missing out on anything by not building one of those stats, and for others it opens up the possibility of running an off-meta build and having some fun with it. The benefits are small, almost insignificant.

It adds build variety, makes baron buff slightly more valuable, and ultimately doesn't hurt anything. It doesn't need to get changed.

Many of these champions perform poorly in general, so it's false to assume just based on the fact they no longer have an option to build an item with AP that there's no power budget there.

And I know what you said. It's called a counter-claim. You state that it makes sense thematically but the evidence suggests that isn't actually important.

As for champions like Alistar and Leona, the argument that there isn't a good support item with AD doesn't work because they don't buy the support items with AP.

It does not add build variety. I didn't include a single champion who can actually change up their build to focus on their AP scaling effectively. That's why I had to leave out Yi, Varus, and several others. Many of the champions I listed are performing poorly, and while it may be due to an outdated kit for a few of them, it's also true that the inclusion of AP scaling on champions who before had the option of Trinity Force is itself outdated.

If every such champion were doing well or over performing, I'd have to agree that there's no power budget in their AP scalings, but that's not the case. It may in fact be that they're underperforming specifically because they can't add any more strength into the champion's actual scaling.

DuskDaUmbreon2 votes

Most of the AP scaling on non-hybrids is because Riot doesn't want the ability to have stat scaling because it'd be too strong if it did (Ashe could be a fucking assassin if her R scaled with AD lmao), but it looks really weird for an ability to have no scaling.

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