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Support items should just get a massive overhaul at this point

BALDG1VEN BOOMER··33 votes·18,505 views

Every year there always seems to be some kind of fuckery that appears that involves support items being abused by solo laners or carries.

Season 5: Sightstone on junglers Season 6: Spellthiefs mid lane for income/sustain Season 7: Ardent + ADC Relic Season 8: Relic, but was eventually removed EDIT: S8 Top laners also used coin Season 9: Klepto and Spellthiefs

Year after year support items are given nice new things only to be abused by non supports which eventually end up with them getting nerf to the trash can all together. Year after year supports and their items have received more nerfs than any QoL or buffs. Every year there seems to be some kind of issue with support items and solo laners abusing them and at this point I'd rather you overhaul the entire thing than look for more nerfs.

With recent changes to Spellthiefs and Coin these are massively the most horrendous changes that could have ever went live. You're literally tying a support to an ally, what's even the point of playing a self sufficient AP support anymore when you can't even proc the tribute damage alone. That's not even the worst of your problems, what happens if your ADC is constantly dying in lane and you don't have an ally around to farm gold?

The first changes for removal of sight stone and incorporating the 500g was already bad enough as I had a couple of games where I can't even interact with my lane and have to wait almost nearly 20 mins just to complete my freaking item.

https://imgur.com/a/7ADcpoZ

But now if you're in a shitty lane match up where you can't poke or you'll die or your getting camped you make literally 0 gold.

Just overhaul the items already and start new they've been balancing nightmares for a long time now.

53 Comments

gileskd11 votes

Riot: lets add something to the game Person: cool, I can do this idea Riot: what the truck? NO! you have to play our way [sg-janna]

Marshbouy7 votes

Riot: lets add something to the game Person: cool, i'm going to invent a strategy that has little counterplay and runs completely counter to what the very game is based around. Riot: Not cool bro.

gileskd10 votes

Riot: we will call this path "inspiration" . in the description we will put "rule bending" person: cool, I will bend this rule riot: [sg-janna]

LTK KoRo2 votes

this post being downvoted proved even more that boards aren't the brightest

Marshbouy1 votes

i'm used to it

edit: like when that """"support""""" singed and """"support"""" nunu guys were running around trolling their teammates and everyone acted like they would be completely fine with them being in one of their games.

La Belle Sauvage2 votes

This is the best comment. I feel like riot says "play your way" and when you find your own way they change it.

The only time I'm okay I'd if something isn't able to be countered.

LTK KoRo1 votes

like frostmancy?

Saezio8 votes

Nerfing that top strategy is pretty easy, Give people with support items half EXP if the minions die to anything but a champion. Could be 75% or whatever, just make support items unviable in sololanes

BALDG1VEN BOOMER1 votes

That would contradict catch up exp

rayzo15 votes

{quoted}

Nerfing that top strategy is pretty easy, Give people with support items half EXP if the minions die to anything but a champion. Could be 75% or whatever, just make support items unviable in sololanes

what if your adc is trash at last hitting

Saianna1 votes

Then you'd lose the game either way :P

Saianna1 votes

Even better, to expand on your suggestion: give +10, or 15% exp from minions you didn't kill. Now supports won't be always behind with level :D

GinoSoldier8 votes

I'm in the camp that loves offmeta creativity, within certain limits. I have no opposition to people skimping on CS if they have an alternate path to get the win.

That said; i still think the game will never reach a stable item balance if we keep giving supports (and to a lesser extent tank items) cheap, gimped down items. Raise the costs on them as well as the stats, make income items unique to the support role as well as buffing them, and let players across all roles choose what items they want looking at defensive or offensive, personal or team passives and actives that don't ever stack.

Problem solved.

Sillae1 votes

{quoted}

I'm in the camp that loves offmeta creativity, within certain limits. I have no opposition to people skimping on CS if they have an alternate path to get the win.

That said; i still think the game will never reach a stable item balance if we keep giving supports (and to a lesser extent tank items) cheap, gimped down items. Raise the costs on them as well as the stats, make income items unique to the support role as well as buffing them, and let players across all roles choose what items they want looking at defensive or offensive, personal or team passives and actives that don't ever stack.

Problem solved.

Support isn't something hard coded. It's not like "Melee - Only" items, because theoretically any champ could support (and hell, the adc is more often than not the Brand or Zyra's support tbh).

GinoSoldier1 votes

{quoted}

Support isn't something hard coded. It's not like "Melee - Only" items, because theoretically any champ could support (and hell, the adc is more often than not the Brand or Zyra's support tbh).

Agreed, actually. It's part of why it's so damn awkward for some items (Ardent Censer, Knight's Vow cost 22-2400, gold gen items below 2000) while regular items cost over 2700 as a rule. If all items cost the same then gold gen can be calculated similarly for all roles.

Saezio5 votes

A thing they should add to spellthiefs is If no ally is within 1500 you don't get penalty for farming. Because it's fucked up atm

Marshbouy2 votes

???

That would put spellthiefs back into solo lanes again. Every time a jungler comes by or you gank a lane you get free gold.

Saezio1 votes

Because all of the time is somehow comparable to the time one spends with their jungler? The whole point of the 0 CS frostmancy or however it's called it's that you proc it consistently not once every blue moon and the rest of the time you are stuck with an item that is not doing anything.

Marshbouy1 votes

The 0 CS frostmancy strat is different than simply taking the a gold gen item into a solo lane. The 0 CS frostmancy strat relies on your no auto attacking minions for the majority of the game so you can abuse a variety of systems.

The current changes make the frostmancy strat invalid, I won't disagree with that.

But before the Frostmancy strat was ever a thing, taking spellthiefs into mid or top was already a powerful option. Riot had to add the "last hitting minions disables stack generation" portion of the passive to take it out of solo lanes.

Why?

The item is already 85.6% gold efficient when you buy it. At 5 min into the game it becomes gold efficient without using the tribute passive, meaning everything after that is profit. If you remove the "CSing disables tribute stack generation" passive, it will make more free gold available. Sure there is still baggage attached to the item, you need to have an ally to be nearby to generate gold, but it would be a powerful option on champions roam frequently or on players who get their jungle to camp for them.

Serika Zero1 votes

Wrong in one aspect. you could auto attack and hit minions with spells.

Just that you should not last hit them.

Josh Sand5 votes

Honestly the entire item system would be easier to balance if they were just grouped by class. Not every champion needs to have access to every item for the game to work. Soraka doesn't need access to items like Tiamat, and Fiora doesn't need access to items like Spellthief's Edge.

If each class had it's own group of items, and a list of generic items that everyone can use, balancing the items would become so much easier.

Just like marksman items, support items are constantly having to be balanced around the fact that someone outside of their intended role might use them, and that's a really lousy metric to balance against.

Imagine how good you could make tank MR items if champions like LeBlanc couldnt take them. Imagine how much easier it would be to balance gold income items if only support champions could get them.

The feature of everyone having access to every item isn't worth balancing around, especially when Riot is going to intercede anyways when stuff like Tank Ekko or Top Viktor spout up.

I just want to be able to play support with items that are cleanly tailored for the role, outside of the shield items please.

Cdore2 votes

[{quoted}](name=ixi Josh Sand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d1wKf7Ex,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-02-12T19:45:38.211+0000)

Honestly the entire item system would be easier to balance if they were just grouped by class. Not every champion needs to have access to every item for the game to work. Soraka doesn't need access to items like Tiamat, and Fiora doesn't need access to items like Spellthief's Edge.

If each class had it's own group of items, and a list of generic items that everyone can use, balancing the items would become so much easier.

Just like marksman items, support items are constantly having to be balanced around the fact that someone outside of their intended role might use them, and that's a really lousy metric to balance against.

Imagine how good you could make tank MR items if champions like LeBlanc couldnt take them. Imagine how much easier it would be to balance gold income items if only support champions could get them.

The feature of everyone having access to every item isn't worth balancing around, especially when Riot is going to intercede anyways when stuff like Tank Ekko or Top Viktor spout up.

I just want to be able to play support with items that are cleanly tailored for the role, outside of the shield items please.

You're barking up a tree I sort of hinted at a while back: Go the Heroes of the Storm Route. Make everyone have no items, but individual power ups. The odyssey mode was a good way to do talent-based system, too.

Josh Sand3 votes

Honestly that would be good too, because 99% of the time as a support, I'm literally just buying the same 3 items every game, regardless of the team compositions. All of the stat gains from equipment might as well be gated behind experience levels, as it would basically deliver the same experience.

If there aren't any meaningful choices for me on my equipment, then why does the system even exist in the first place?

Gramps691 votes

For Off-Meta Fuckery

AP Udyrs, AP Nasus (ARAM), ADC Annie was a thing for a while several seasons ago, Crittlesticks was hilarious once upon a time, on-hit Soraka with her silence to counter Riven, etc.

hhaavviikk1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ixi Josh Sand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d1wKf7Ex,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-02-12T19:45:38.211+0000)

Honestly the entire item system would be easier to balance if they were just grouped by class. Not every champion needs to have access to every item for the game to work. Soraka doesn't need access to items like Tiamat, and Fiora doesn't need access to items like Spellthief's Edge.

If each class had it's own group of items, and a list of generic items that everyone can use, balancing the items would become so much easier.

Just like marksman items, support items are constantly having to be balanced around the fact that someone outside of their intended role might use them, and that's a really lousy metric to balance against.

Imagine how good you could make tank MR items if champions like LeBlanc couldnt take them. Imagine how much easier it would be to balance gold income items if only support champions could get them.

The feature of everyone having access to every item isn't worth balancing around, especially when Riot is going to intercede anyways when stuff like Tank Ekko or Top Viktor spout up.

I just want to be able to play support with items that are cleanly tailored for the role, outside of the shield items please.

but this would ruin all creativity and enforce a meta even more, say you want to play lee sin support, well to bad he isn't defined as a support by riot so you can't buy the support item, GG no breaking meta for you

Saianna1 votes

This would contradict the very spine of this game, which is "adapt by buying items". I know META etc etc etc, but you still can go ADC soraka (not that you should). At some point Garen often bought DFG, to ump his ultimate damage. With your suggestion it'd never be the case. There are few more examples of classes buying "wrong items" for synergy. Overall I'd prefer not changing that. If anything it's a shame Riot themselves contradicted this by limiting our build paths with "unique" gimmick on items. 5x sunfirecape Eve, oh I miss you so much :(

There are other ways around the issue we should explore first imo :)

Josh Sand2 votes

The thing is tho, at least from the support role, there are very few efficient items for me to buy to adapt to.

If I want to stack defensive stats and shield bonuses. There are no items for that

If I want to stack defensive stats with Ability Power and some team utility there are no items like that.

Or what if I just want some defensive utility found in other items? A GA effect would be really fun on a squish support, but the stats on GA are tuned for other champions. Why can't there be a cheap support item that has the passive from Abyssal Mask, so I can synergize with a mage carry like Cassiopeia?

Bruisers get to have key items like Black Cleaver and Spear of Shojin which basically give them everything they need, then they can branch out into shit like Maw or Steraks, depending on what they are facing. Support cant have any items like that because they would be "abused" by solo laners.

If every champ pool had their own group of items, you could start experimenting a lot more with them, because the number of champions you would have to account for is less than 120.

dome0251 votes

Honestly the entire item system would be easier to balance if they were just grouped by class. Not every champion needs to have access to every item for the game to work. Soraka doesn't need access to items like Tiamat, and Fiora doesn't need access to items like Spellthief's Edge.

Would perhaps remove the last bit of fun from the game. Things like AP Shyvana, AS Lulu, etc. would be removed (some of this offmeta picks can be annyoing to play against but they have some drawbacks which make them not competitive viable). Also it would be problematic since some champs use items from other classes (some marksmen use lethality items which are ad assassine items, mage supports use both support and mage items). And champs can´t be picked offrole as a counter (MF support used by pro).

We simply need more and better designed items. Does someone actually builds this item 3030? Even it´s previous users like A Sol probably abandoned it. Why is item 3285 almost must buy and item 3027 no real alternative to item 3285 ? Why do ap bruisers lack items to build? Why do crit users have one mandatory item (item 3031,previously item 3095, and previously again item 3031 )?

Edit: Restrictions for items make sense but they should be the exception not the rule.

Josh Sand1 votes

I agree. I should also elaborate more. I'm not intending to say that we take items away from champs - I'm saying that each champ class should have a pool of weapons, and within those pools, there should also be some off-meta items for players to experiment with.

The state of items right now is insanely boring, because they have to be balanced against 120 different kits, so they have to be either insanely narrow in who can efficiently use it, or its just so generic and bland that it doesn't really require any strategic thought around it.

If Riot had to balance items around 20-ish champions, instead of 120, they would they get all of the items into a balanced state more quickly, which in turn would give them time to experiment with off-meta items.

I think item experimentation is great and yea, give Shyvana some AP options for a dragon breath build. If you wanted to design a great AP item for Shyvana, it would a lot easier knowing that only melee champions like her or Diana or Sylas would be able to use it, instead of worrying if it would bring out something broken like Tank Fizz or Tank Ekko.

I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but the more boundaries you put around areas of a game, the more you can start creating real areas of specialization and experimentation. Just think about the cool items you could build if you know that it would only be shared with similarly styled champions.

Jeddy0173 votes

While I agree the game would be much easier to balance if all items weren't available for all champs, it does come at the sacrifice of fun, off-meta builds & playstyles that the community has embraced throughout the years.

Hammermancer4 votes

Why not just have the 1/3 gold for not last hitting a minion? It'd basically make lane bullies less problematic and would elimate the need for supports to purchase an item in order to get gold. which always bothered me because it makes it so support items need to be busted to be viable thus making tons of super efficient cheap items that wind up getting abused by others in certain metas item 3504 item 3109

also eliminates the severity of raging adcs who experience the immense trauma that is brand/sona/raka adc poking and accidentally last hitting a minion

Oleandervine4 votes

Season 8 had solo top laners abusing Ancient Coin.

That said, Riot has been actively avoiding LOCKING THE SUPPORT STARTERS TO THE SUPPORT ROLE. It's the only solution that stops all of this nonsense. This can be done by either having the role itself allow you to get the items, or Riot actually dropping their balls and selecting a summoner's spell (Exhaust) as the spell to bind the items to, like how Jungle items are bound to Smite. Either of these will do, but for fuck sake, support starter items abuse has been rampant for a long time now, and Riot has still yet to do anything meaningful to curtail it that doesn't take a steaming shit on the chests of support mains.

Saezio2 votes

If they wanted to tie a spell to support it should be a new one. Exhaust is too generic.

Also, how would the game determine who is playing support to allow them to get the item?

I think the best would be to have the support item cut xp in half if you aren't in a duo lane for 30 sec straight or something. Or, make it unsellable and buff it's upgrades but have all the gold one gets funnelled into that item until it is complete.

Oleandervine1 votes

{quoted}

If they wanted to tie a spell to support it should be a new one. Exhaust is too generic.

This is true, but Riot hasn't added a new summoner's in ages. Plus, even if Exhaust is too generic, they would be opting to use it instead of something like Teleport or Ignite, which would be a bit of a deterrent from other lanes.

Also, how would the game determine who is playing support to allow them to get the item?

https://imgur.com/a/WErtBQy

I think the best would be to have the support item cut xp in half if you aren't in a duo lane for 30 sec straight or something. Or, make it unsellable and buff it's upgrades but have all the gold one gets funnelled into that item until it is complete.

NO. Once late game hits, you are fucked if you're split pushing or even roaming, so it would actively impede you once laning ends. The items, plain and simple needs to be bound to something, summoner or role, that will limit it to the support position only. Not any of this bullshit about requiring allies, or having these obscure drawbacks to prevent them from going to other lanes.

Saezio1 votes

well, that's cool but only applies to games that are not blind pick and have no lane swaps. And riot have never made queue specific in game changes so that is not an option

Oleandervine1 votes

{quoted}

well, that's cool but only applies to games that are not blind pick and have no lane swaps. And riot have never made queue specific in game changes so that is not an option

Blind Pick is a free for all anyway. I don't think tactics impact it as much as they do draft or ranked play. And if you are needing to lane swap with a support, your game is probably lost already. Riot has not made queue specific changes, but that doesn't remove it as an option. Queue specific changes, in fact, would be quite beneficial to the game, as it can be another gate to control abuse of items.

Saezio1 votes

Don't get me wrong, I agree with that. But I don't believe riot would go down that route 10 years into the game. So, I try to "keep it real" with the suggestions. Again, I fully support what you say, couldn't agree more.

Saezio1 votes

I forgot to say, my whole point about exhaust was that supports would be forced to take it, so that's another nerf to the role. Like tying heal to the precision tree. It would allow for even less wiggle room than we got now.

Oleandervine1 votes

{quoted}

I forgot to say, my whole point about exhaust was that supports would be forced to take it, so that's another nerf to the role. Like tying heal to the precision tree. It would allow for even less wiggle room than we got now.

I don't see how Exhaust would nerf the role. Ignite was recently nerfed pretty hard, making it less desirable than Exhaust at current. Plus, your argument is like claiming that Smite somehow nerfs the Jungle role - they made Smite flexible by having the items you build determine how it changes, so I don't see why something like that couldn't be applied to Exhaust. Eye of the Aspect could make Exhaust work on Large and Epic Monsters, Eye of the Watchers could increase the slow strength of Exhaust, Eye of the Ascended could give you a speed boost when you use Exhaust, really, the possibilities are pretty endless as to how these items could modify Exhaust.

Also, your analogy of tying Heal to the Precision tree doesn't work. Runes aren't items, and to date, there is no correlation between summoner spells and runes aside from Unsealed Spellbook.

Saezio1 votes

The difference with smite is that pre jungle items junglers were still picking smite 100% of the time.

That percentage is not even close with exhaust and supports. it's not even 95% to say that we can ignore the rest (5% is still a huge chunk)

Especially the aggressive supports like leona blitz alistar and pyke pick it more than 50% of the time.

The recent ignite "nerfs" also reduced ignite CD which was pretty neat for supports.

Ok then not precision to heal but maybe berzerker greaves to heal or anything ADC specific.

Exhaust would nerf the role in the sense that there would be less room for customisation.

Oleandervine1 votes

{quoted}

The difference with smite is that pre jungle items junglers were still picking smite 100% of the time.

That percentage is not even close with exhaust and supports. it's not even 95% to say that we can ignore the rest (5% is still a huge chunk)

Especially the aggressive supports like leona blitz alistar and pyke pick it more than 50% of the time.

The recent ignite "nerfs" also reduced ignite CD which was pretty neat for supports.

Ok then not precision to heal but maybe berzerker greaves to heal or anything ADC specific.

Exhaust would nerf the role in the sense that there would be less room for customisation.

It reduces what? Your choice between Ignite or Exhaust? In exchange for allowing gold income items to be healthy and balanced for their intended role? I'd say that's a great tradeoff.

Saezio1 votes

Yeah, I just checked, people are picking ignite much more than exhaust.

Check recent competitive games and count exhausts on support.

The support items WERE balanced for their intended role. They were abused by other roles and that's what prompted the ban.

there are tons of ways to make support items unviable for sololaners, tying it to a summoner spell that's not even a prevalent choice among supports is idiotic.

Something that pops to mind without even thinking, make the item grant nothing if it's user is higher level than 2 people in the team.

Tusutaki3 votes

Instead of nerfing support items again, why not instead buff the Dorans items? Or introduce new starter items like an AD version of Dark Seal? Having alternative strats is completely fine and experimenting/theory crafting to find them is one of the main reasons why people love this game.

The reason why Klepto Spellthief top seems to oppressive is because of the consequence of nerfing everything. This strat isnt the cause but of a symptom of their balance decisions. Why not revert the Dorans Shield nerf? Or allow us to buy health pots along with Corruption Potion?

Tobykachu1 votes

The nerf to Doran's items 100% is not the reason for this strategy emerging.

Serika Zero1 votes

I actually agree. because other starter items are shit is why people could afford to use this strat.

If having dorans blade or ring or shield gave more kill pressure or regen. It wouldn't work.

Most common talon start is blade and refillable pot due to how bad Doran blade is. Another thing that would help is for the dorans item to upgrade. is dorans blade to be able to upgrade to vampire scepter drik or tiamat.

Or ring into lost chapter or tear etc.

LTK KoRo1 votes

im all in for buffing dorans item a bit, but please, don't allow "buy health pots along with Corruption Potion" this. Crystaline Flask+pots removed entire early game weaknesses for some champions while feeling terrible to play against

SpaghettiVase2 votes

Haven’t they been massively overhauled multiple times in the last two years?

Glaricion2 votes

Oh quests, sometimes you get wards within the first 12 minutes of the game, other times it is 24 minutes in and you're just now getting 'em, what a great system.

Kage's Pick and HoG w/ a solo XP penalty would be nice and just bring back purchasable wards.

Karunamon1 votes

Just lock the damn support items behind the support role (like is done with jungler items) and be done with it. Every single time someone comes up with something "innovative", it ends up being cancerous. It would solve a long-standing issue without impacting healthy game play and give the live design team something to do other than fix brokenness.

The pretense that new and interesting playstyles are allowed is pretty much out the window. Embrace it. There have been no innovations outside of the 1-1-2 meta for years - close the door already.

FilDaFunk1 votes

Is anyone still OK with GP5 and no actives on items (so supporting relied solely on abilities)?

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